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Lift, Clean and REPLACE qualifying competions

  • 07-10-2019 6:21pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 7,929 ✭✭✭ spacecoyote


    MOD EDIT, moving these OT posts into their own thread for discussion
    41pts off 18

    87 strokes, 39 on front & 48 on back 9

    I’ve changed my driving recently, it used to be “powerful” but with a big fade, now it’s short & consistent, it makes life so much easier when you are on fairway

    FIR 7/7 on front 9, 2/8 on back 9
    GIR 4/9 on front 9, 1/9 on back 9

    Par all the par 3’s 3/3
    15 putts on both front & back 9

    On side note, there was placing everywhere, can I expect a handicap cut?
    No, you wont get a cut unfortunately, qualifying can happen with placing on fairway, but not in the rough


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭ kieran.


    No, you wont get a cut unfortunately, qualifying can happen with placing on fairway, but not in the rough

    This isn't true anymore as I found out over the weekend you can have Lift, Clean and Replace (to the original spot) and still have qualified. See Modle local rule E-2
    https://www.randa.org/Rog/2019/Pages/Local-Rules-Creator
    Also see
    CONGU-Advice-New-Rules-of-Golf Ireland.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 871 Remind me


    kieran. wrote: »
    This isn't true anymore as I found out over the weekend you can have Lift, Clean and Replace (to the original spot) and still have qualified. See Modle local rule E-2
    https://www.randa.org/Rog/2019/Pages/Local-Rules-Creator
    Also see
    CONGU-Advice-New-Rules-of-Golf Ireland.pdf

    I think you’re reading the rule wrong. That is if you are claiming relief from a certain situation such as a plugged ball or GUR.

    You can’t have placing everywhere and qualifying.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭ kieran.


    Remind me wrote: »
    I think you’re reading the rule wrong. That is if you are claiming relief from a certain situation such as a plugged ball or GUR.

    You can’t have placing everywhere and qualifying.

    From the second document.

    Preferred Lies and Cleaning the ball - Model Local Rules – E-2 and E-3
    In Ireland the Preferred Lie period is from November 1st to April 30th. Clubs can run Qualifying Competitions during this period when both Model Local Rule E-2 and E-3 are in force. It is recommended that a Local Rule permitting preferred lies in the general area outside of the preferred lies period should be used only in extreme circumstances where scores will not be accepted for handicapping purpose.
    Model Local Rule E-2 allows players to clean their ball in designated areas (this can be the entire general area) in the General Area. The ball must be marked before lifting and cleaning. The ball must be replaced on its original spot before playing.
    Model Local Rule E-2 can be in force at any time.
    The purpose of preferred lies as described in this Model Local Rule E-3 is to protect areas of the course cut to fairway height or less. This Model Local Rule allows players to lift, clean and place the ball within six inches in the General Area cut to fairway height. It is recommended that the ball should be marked before
    lifting. The ball must be placed in the relief area within six inches of the reference point.
    When MLR E-2 and MLR E-3 are used during the preferred lies period scores may be returned
    for handicap adjustment.

    We had a qualifying competition under these rules last weekend!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 871 Remind me


    kieran. wrote: »
    From the second document.

    Preferred Lies and Cleaning the ball - Model Local Rules – E-2 and E-3
    In Ireland the Preferred Lie period is from November 1st to April 30th. Clubs can run Qualifying Competitions during this period when both Model Local Rule E-2 and E-3 are in force. It is recommended that a Local Rule permitting preferred lies in the general area outside of the preferred lies period should be used only in extreme circumstances where scores will not be accepted for handicapping purpose.
    Model Local Rule E-2 allows players to clean their ball in designated areas (this can be the entire general area) in the General Area. The ball must be marked before lifting and cleaning. The ball must be replaced on its original spot before playing.
    Model Local Rule E-2 can be in force at any time.
    The purpose of preferred lies as described in this Model Local Rule E-3 is to protect areas of the course cut to fairway height or less. This Model Local Rule allows players to lift, clean and place the ball within six inches in the General Area cut to fairway height. It is recommended that the ball should be marked before
    lifting. The ball must be placed in the relief area within six inches of the reference point.
    When MLR E-2 and MLR E-3 are used during the preferred lies period scores may be returned
    for handicap adjustment.

    We had a qualifying competition under these rules last weekend!!

    To me it still reads certain areas such as GUR or new sods.

    If this is a new rule or clubs are bending the rule to the extent that placing is still qualifying it is very questionable IMO.

    The issues around handicaps are tough enough to get right never mind throwing this in the mix!!

    Cut off for championships will be down to +3 in no time!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭ kieran.


    Remind me wrote: »
    To me it still reads certain areas such as GUR or new sods.

    If this is a new rule or clubs are bending the rule to the extent that placing is still qualifying it is very questionable IMO.

    The issues around handicaps are tough enough to get right never mind throwing this in the mix!!

    Cut off for championships will be down to +3 in no time!

    No bending, it's a new rule this year.

    https://www.golfnet.ie/news/golfnet/3763/congu-guide-for-clubs-on-new-rules-of-golf

    FYI its not placing its clean and replace no preferring of lies is allowed when your off the fairway.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 871 Remind me


    kieran. wrote: »
    No bending, it's a new rule this year.

    https://www.golfnet.ie/news/golfnet/3763/congu-guide-for-clubs-on-new-rules-of-golf

    FYI its not placing its clean and replace no preferring of lies is allowed when your off the fairway.

    So it’s the very same as always?

    It has always been the case you can place on the fairway only and it remains qualifying

    Edit: if you can clean and replace in the same spot in the rough and it’s qualifying I massively disagree with that rule change.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭ kieran.


    Remind me wrote: »
    So it’s the very same as always?

    It has always been the case you can place on the fairway only and it remains qualifying

    Edit: if you can clean and replace in the same spot in the rough and it’s qualifying I massively disagree with that rule change.


    Agree or disagree, thats the new rule this year. As its a model local rule I guess it's up to each club if they implement it of or not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 774 ✭✭✭ Kingswood Rover


    Clubs that are serious about their interclub teams wont go near this with 10 barge poles, having non qualifiers as soon as possible helps panel retention year to year.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,137 ✭✭✭ blue note


    Clubs that are serious about their interclub teams wont go near this with 10 barge poles, having non qualifiers as soon as possible helps panel retention year to year.

    This attitude to interclub competitions wrecks my head. Essentially to have a chance of winning them you need to be manipulating a few handicaps so that you have fellas playing in them that should be ineligible. The only interclub competitions to mean anything are the scratch ones in my opinion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 871 Remind me


    kieran. wrote: »
    Agree or disagree, thats the new rule this year. As its a model local rule I guess it's up to each club if they implement it of or not.

    I hadn’t seen the new ruling and have to say I would massively disagree with it for the winter months. Forward tees, soft greens etc...

    The only time I could see it justified is a bad spell of weather during the summer which meant a captains or medal might need placing.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,743 ✭✭✭ benny79


    Clubs that are serious about their interclub teams wont go near this with 10 barge poles, having non qualifiers as soon as possible helps panel retention year to year.

    Is that not cheating? I dont play interclub was picked last year but hadnt the time. But I know me and most the guys I play with want to play qualifying competitions! Isn't that one of the beauties of golf you are always chasing to get your HC as low as possible then get a buzz when you get cut??

    I hate when qualifying is over!


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,929 ✭✭✭ spacecoyote


    Remind me wrote: »
    I hadn’t seen the new ruling and have to say I would massively disagree with it for the winter months. Forward tees, soft greens etc...

    The only time I could see it justified is a bad spell of weather during the summer which meant a captains or medal might need placing.

    This is the general expectation for its use I think. My club used it once this year.

    The first medal of the year was right on the border conditions-wise. They wanted the first "major" of the year to be qualifying so used the rule Kieran. mentioned


  • Registered Users Posts: 390 ✭✭ Poker Face


    kieran. wrote: »
    From the second document.

    Preferred Lies and Cleaning the ball - Model Local Rules – E-2 and E-3
    In Ireland the Preferred Lie period is from November 1st to April 30th. Clubs can run Qualifying Competitions during this period when both Model Local Rule E-2 and E-3 are in force. It is recommended that a Local Rule permitting preferred lies in the general area outside of the preferred lies period should be used only in extreme circumstances where scores will not be accepted for handicapping purpose.
    Model Local Rule E-2 allows players to clean their ball in designated areas (this can be the entire general area) in the General Area. The ball must be marked before lifting and cleaning. The ball must be replaced on its original spot before playing.
    Model Local Rule E-2 can be in force at any time.
    The purpose of preferred lies as described in this Model Local Rule E-3 is to protect areas of the course cut to fairway height or less. This Model Local Rule allows players to lift, clean and place the ball within six inches in the General Area cut to fairway height. It is recommended that the ball should be marked before
    lifting. The ball must be placed in the relief area within six inches of the reference point.
    When MLR E-2 and MLR E-3 are used during the preferred lies period scores may be returned
    for handicap adjustment.

    We had a qualifying competition under these rules last weekend!!

    When you say you had qualifying comp under these rules last weekend did you have lift clean and place in both the fairway and rough?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭ kieran.


    Yes the rule in play was lift, clean and replace the ball to the original spot through the general area. You were not allowed to prefer your lie.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,564 ✭✭✭✭ Rikand


    So if the ball is buried in 6 inch deep rough, if you clean it and then replace it back into its awful ****ty lie, then that's okay for counting.

    Seems fair to me. The only advantage you're gaining is a clean ball, you still have to hack it out.

    Of course, some people won't put it back in the exact same spot but there's a word for them and they'll go about their way no matter what the stipulation


  • Registered Users Posts: 774 ✭✭✭ Kingswood Rover


    benny79 wrote: »
    Is that not cheating? I dont play interclub was picked last year but hadnt the time. But I know me and most the guys I play with want to play qualifying competitions! Isn't that one of the beauties of golf you are always chasing to get your HC as low as possible then get a buzz when you get cut??

    I hate when qualifying is over!
    As do i but i think some clubs put such an emphasis on interclub comps that is totally at odds with always trying to get cut or even trying to stay in the buffer zone.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,832 ✭✭✭ DuckSlice


    I personally try to avoid counting comps with placing in them. If I get cut I want it to be a cut for playing it as it lies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,812 ✭✭✭✭ Mantis Toboggan


    etxp wrote: »
    I personally try to avoid counting comps with placing in them. If I get cut I want it to be a cut for playing it as it lies.

    Well you don't have to lift & clean you can always just play it as it lies.


    IRISHMEN AND IRISHWOMEN: "In the name of God and of the dead generations from which she receives her old tradition of nationhood, Ireland, through us, summons her children to her flag and strikes for her freedom"

    Irish Proclamation



  • Registered Users Posts: 390 ✭✭ Poker Face


    Rikand wrote: »
    Of course, some people won't put it back in the exact same spot but there's a word for them and they'll go about their way no matter what the stipulation

    Exactly, just making it even easier for them to do it!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,832 ✭✭✭ DuckSlice


    Well you don't have to lift & clean you can always just play it as it lies.

    This is true, but I would probably get angry of having to play a mudball every shot.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭ HighLine


    There is a little bit of a confusion regarding these new rules (E2 & E3) with different clubs interpreting them in different ways. I would expect the GUI to issue a clarification and a standard issue rule in due course.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,308 ✭✭✭✭ prawnsambo


    HighLine wrote: »
    There is a little bit of a confusion regarding these new rules (E2 & E3) with different clubs interpreting them in different ways. I would expect the GUI to issue a clarification and a standard issue rule in due course.
    Yet this rule is posted on GolfNet and refers to Ireland only. And has been there since late last year. I suspect that they put it up there without fully assessing its significance. The issue I think is with the reference to the 'General Area'. That can be interpreted to mean the entire general area when it's possible that the intention is to have it apply only to specified areas within the general area. Such as parts of the course that are more prone to producing mud balls and not the whole course.

    I think if used that way, it could be a useful rule to allow clubs run more qualifying competitions in the winter. But having said that, there would be a fair overhead on clubs assessing what areas need to be identified on a week by week basis. And it could end up being very confusing for members.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,534 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Yet this rule is posted on GolfNet and refers to Ireland only. And has been there since late last year. I suspect that they put it up there without fully assessing its significance. The issue I think is with the reference to the 'General Area'. That can be interpreted to mean the entire general area when it's possible that the intention is to have it apply only to specified areas within the general area. Such as parts of the course that are more prone to producing mud balls and not the whole course.

    General Area has a specific definition, just like "through the green".
    RANDA wrote:
    The area of the course that covers all of the course except for the other four defined areas: (1) the teeing area you must play from in starting the hole you are playing, (2) all penalty areas, (3) all bunkers, and (4) the putting green of the hole you are playing.

    The general area includes all teeing locations on the course other than the teeing area, and all wrong greens.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,308 ✭✭✭✭ prawnsambo


    GreeBo wrote: »
    General Area has a specific definition, just like "through the green".
    Actually 'General Area' is now the name for what used to be 'through the green'.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,534 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Actually 'General Area' is now the name for what used to be 'through the green'.

    Isn't that what I said?:confused:

    Either way, I dont see how "General Area" can be confusing as to what area it means when its clearly defined?

    If it was specific areas of the course rather than the General Area then these would be marked as GUR I would have thought?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,308 ✭✭✭✭ prawnsambo


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Isn't that what I said?:confused:

    Either way, I dont see how "General Area" can be confusing as to what area it means when its clearly defined?

    If it was specific areas of the course rather than the General Area then these would be marked as GUR I would have thought?
    Not very clearly. If that was your intention. "A definition like 'through the green'".
    And maybe I wasn't being very clear.The guideline posted above refers to 'designated areas within the General Area' rather than the entire General Area. That's a bit ambiguous, since you could conceivably designate the General Area itself as being within the general area.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,534 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Not very clearly. If that was your intention. "A definition like 'through the green'".
    And maybe I wasn't being very clear.The guideline posted above refers to 'designated areas within the General Area' rather than the entire General Area. That's a bit ambiguous, since you could conceivably designate the General Area itself as being within the general area.

    Ah ok, if its says designated areas then I would take that to be areas marked as GUR only or perhaps defined areas that are clearly called out as in scope.
    e.g. "The area to the right of the path on the 16th"

    You couldn't have General Areas within the General Area though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,308 ✭✭✭✭ prawnsambo


    So this was issued yesterday on the back of queries raised about the original CONGU rules update posted earlier in this thread:
    Winter Rules: Guidance for Club Committees

    25 November 2019
    Issued jointly by the ILGU & GUI

    Qualifying Competitions
    Clubs wishing to run competitions which are qualifying for handicap purposes in winter are facilitated in so doing by the availability of two Model Local Rules regarding Preferred Lies and Cleaning the Ball. Preferred lies can only be used in competitions when the Committee has introduced a local rule.

    There are two local rules to guide Committees in permitting relief from winter conditions during the so-called ‘preferred lie period’ which is currently running and concludes on April 30th 2020. During this period, these local rules ARE permitted in qualifying competitions.
    • MLR E-3 Preferred Lies – this permits players to not only clean the ball, but also take a preferred lie within a specified relief area (CONGU limit max 6 inches), when a player’s ball lies in a part of the general area cut to fairway height or less.
    • MLR E-2 Cleaning the Ball – this is intended to permit players to clean and replace the ball throughout the general area (ie, including in the rough). This is not a preferred lie as the ball must be replaced on its original spot.

    Competitions which are non-qualifying for handicap purposes
    It is important to note that even when competitions are non-qualifying for handicap purposes, it is still required that these scores be recorded on the player’s handicap record.

    Even for casual golf and for competitions which are not qualifying for handicapping purposes, it is still important for Committees to ensure that the rules of golf are followed. We strongly recommend Committees avoid using Local Rules that compromise the Rules of Golf for competitions that don’t qualify for handicapping purposes as this can lead to confusion for players. More importantly, a Committee may only seek assistance in interpreting the local rule from The R&A when a local rule is written using the language of the Model Local Rule section.

    For guidance on Model Local Rules (MLR’s) that can be used by a Committee, refer to the Official Guide to the Rules of Golf. Below are examples of local rules that are either unnecessary or compromise the Rules of Golf.

    Bunkers (“Rake and Place”): When a player’s ball lies in the bunker, permitting players to lift and clean the ball, rake the bunker and take a preferred lie is compromising the basic principles of the Rules of Golf.

    Embedded ball: A local rule is not required at any time to allow relief for an embedded (ie, plugged) ball in the General Area as this is already covered by Rule 16.3b. Additionally, an embedded ball that cannot be found and is not known or virtually certain to be in an area of abnormal course conditions is a lost ball (see Rule 18.2).

    Other Teeing Areas: Teeing areas other than the hole being played are deemed to be within the general area. Local rules requesting players to take relief from other teeing areas are not in compliance with the Rules of Golf.


    So as discussed up thread, it is permitted to lift, clean and REplace the ball anywhere in the General Area (everywhere except bunkers, penalty areas, the tee box and green you're playing from/to) in a qualifying competition. But only during the preferred lies period.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 16,081 Mod ✭✭✭✭ slave1


    Other Teeing Areas: Teeing areas other than the hole being played are deemed to be within the general area. Local rules requesting players to take relief from other teeing areas are not in compliance with the Rules of Golf.

    That's an interesting one, I've been to plenty of courses that require the golfer to drop off teeing area outside the hole in play.

    Bunkers (“Rake and Place”): When a player’s ball lies in the bunker, permitting players to lift and clean the ball, rake the bunker and take a preferred lie is compromising the basic principles of the Rules of Golf.

    My club just introduced this!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭ HighLine


    Interesting to note their "strong" objection to "Rake and Place". Our club brought that rule in this year and it is a very good addition IMO. Having every bunker prepared and raked fit for play on both days of the weekend in this sh*tty weather and with small staff levels is asking too much for most courses.

    Rake and Place reduces pressure on the greenstaff and ensures players don't have to play from an unfair lie in an unraked bunker.


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