Are there Poor Countries?

ThunbergsAreGo

Sounds like a stupid question, but when you hear politicians wanting to help "poor countries" - which ones are actually poor and not subject to awful leaders, despots and a higher class who hoard the countries naturals resources.

So while there are definitely poor people in the world, what countries are actually poor, or what makes a country poor?

Many of the African countries are rich in natural resources

Wibbs

India springs to mind. A top end of society with vast wealth, a government that throws huge cash at their military and they even have a space program, yet a large chunk of thier population are trocaire box poor and have to be reminded with billboards not to sh1t in the streets. And the country gets a load of aid money from overseas.

Mad_maxx

Wibbs wrote: »

India springs to mind. A top end of society with vast wealth, a government that throws huge cash at their military and they even have a space program, yet a large chunk of thier population are trocaire box poor and have to be reminded with billboards not to sh1t in the streets. And the country gets a load of aid money from overseas.

India has a redicolously large population in a country with many areas near uninhabitable

ThunbergsAreGo

Mad_maxx wrote: »

India has a redicolously large population in a country with many areas near uninhabitable

So it has many poor people, but isnt a poor country?

Fourth largest natural resources in the world for example

topper75

I would say yes there are poor nations but they are not the ones that are often touted as being poor.

Oddly in our case - we SHOULD be poor in relative terms. We have some fishing grounds that are now quite compromised, some pretty good grassland though small in area, and a negligible amount of minerals in the earth.

Geo-proximity to developed nations has helped, as well as wily political decisions on corporate tax and state-funded education.

We use a lot of debt though and don't like to discuss it. How we mentally reconcile this debt with a 'foreign aid' programme I simply do not know.

Bobblehats

If you value sexual interactions more the wealth map gets turned on its head. Nobody is saying poor lucky or sanjeef got the ride

Richard Hillman

A lot of the African countries have extremely fertile land and natural resources. Some countries especially on the Eastern horn like Ethiopia and Somalia could be wealthy from wine making but refuse for religious regions.

There are countries like Chad and Mauritania who are just barren drylands. Very little going on there.

There are countries such as Moldova who is small and surrounded by 2 large nations. They can't really wield much power and have little to export.

The vast majority of countries that are deemed to be poor have only themselves to blame.

razorblunt

Richard Hillman wrote: »

A lot of the African countries have extremely fertile land and natural resources. Some countries especially on the Eastern horn like Ethiopia and Somalia could be wealthy from wine making but refuse for religious regions.

There are countries like Chad and Mauritania who are just barren drylands. Very little going on there.

There are countries such as Moldova who is small and surrounded by 2 large nations. They can't really wield much power and have little to export.

The vast majority of countries that are deemed to be poor have only themselves to blame.

Yeah ... I mean ... like ... have they tried ... like ... just not being poor?

Bobblehats

Richard Hillman wrote: »

A lot of the African countries have extremely fertile land and natural resources. Some countries especially on the Eastern horn like Ethiopia and Somalia could be wealthy from wine making but refuse for religious regions.

There are countries like Chad and Mauritania who are just barren drylands. Very little going on there.

There are countries such as Moldova who is small and surrounded by 2 large nations. They can't really wield much power and have little to export.

The vast majority of countries that are deemed to be poor have only themselves to blame.

They just keep sowing the wrong sort of seeds though. Ploughing that same proverbial furrow when they need to prioritise what comes first

jam_mac_jam

Yes stupid poor countries should pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

topper75

Sometimes these poorer lands have a societal culture that is centred on subsistence and places a low value on future planning or creating supply buffers. When hardship hits from left field, they go down hard.
Conversely, some wealthy nations on earth go to the other extreme and build obscene excess and never enjoy it because of a live to work philosophy.

Richard Hillman

razorblunt wrote: »

Yeah ... I mean ... like ... have they tried ... like ... just not being poor?

Essentially, yes. Their culture holds themselves back from prosperity.


Look at a country like Somalia. Ranked 1st in pretty much all of the ****hole indexes. Sandy coastlines for thousands of miles, year long round good weather. It could be an amazing holiday destiny, absolutely beautiful country.

Its the perfect place for a gigantic port city, sunny coastal resorts, hiking, camping, wine making, water sports, seafood, safari. Basically it could be Australia except its even closer to Europe, even better.

It's the people that make a place.

Mrs OBumble

Narau, Tonga, Fiji. Tuvalu.

Dots in the Pacific .

dxhound2005

Tonga and Fiji are substantial enough, the other two are tiny. Nauru used to be the richest country per capita in the world. But it is a prime example of how depending on one resource is fine until that resource runs out. And of the malign influence of the arrival of Europeans.

Mad_maxx

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Mad_maxx wrote: »

India has a redicolously large population in a country with many areas near uninhabitable

So it has many poor people, but isnt a poor country?

Fourth largest natural resources in the world for example

Using that sole criteria, Singapore is amongst the poorest countries in the world and the Congo amongst the richest.

India is densely populated and has a poor climate

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

India is not a poor country. Nuclear power, space programme, immense natural resources and a huge number of extremely wealthy individuals. The problem is a cultural one.

Nepal exhibits huge poverty on one hand but is another country with potential for wealth but political uncertainty and inconsistences hold it back.


Liberia is without doubt one of the poorest nations on earth and despite some iron ore resources, has little prospect of attaining any reasonable standard of living for it's people, even if the extreme corruption in government was eliminated.

1o059k7ewrqj3n

Richard Hillman wrote: »

A lot of the African countries have extremely fertile land and natural resources. Some countries especially on the Eastern horn like Ethiopia and Somalia could be wealthy from wine making but refuse for religious regions.

There are countries like Chad and Mauritania who are just barren drylands. Very little going on there.

There are countries such as Moldova who is small and surrounded by 2 large nations. They can't really wield much power and have little to export.

The vast majority of countries that are deemed to be poor have only themselves to blame.

Chad has uranium apparently, that's where the French get most of their supplies. No surprise that there is an EU task force currently there protecting their interests.

Moldova should be part of Romania but for the intervention of Russia I think. It used to be part of Romania (Bessarbaria?) Had a lot of Russians move there during the Soviet Union days, part of it broke away (Transnestria?). I think that was the part that touched the Black Sea so that was them ****ed proper.

Sir Osis of Liver.

Sh1thole countries...like Africa.

4068ac1elhodqr

Define 'poor'?

Material wealth isn't everything.
For a young single beach-loving, off-grider, it may mean sunny Thailand is the perfect place to live well, and cheaply.

QLI is more important, and even this is subjective.

Material well-being (GDP per capita)
Life expectancy at birth [ in the USA this is decreasing year on year ]
The quality of family life (based primarily on divorce rates)
The state of political freedoms [ HK will soon loose it's 10th place ]
Job security (measured by the unemployment rate) [ this will soon become a major global issue due to Autonomy ]
Climate (deviation of m/maximum & rainfall) [Even this is localised, think Gal have 200% more than Dub] [ Sporty folks want sun, Farmers want rain ]
Personal physical security ratings [ Footballers & Celebs often get their cars & watches robbed in 1st world London ]
Quality of community life (membership in social organisations) [ Japan may have some issues here ]
Gender equality (e.g. %females in parliaments)
Governance (ratings for corruption)

Highly important is earnings v housing costs. Vancouver is a great place but property higher than NY&Ldn $815kavg
Dublin is 2nd for rate of price growth 11.6%, that's ok only if your earnings are +12% this year also.

Everyday costs vary per lifestlye, folks that go to Starbucks*2+ per day would be advised to avoid Copenhagen, latte:$6.05 (whereas Istanbul: $1.78).
On the flip side Denmark, Norway, Iceland are the top3 2019 happy places in the world.

beejee

From a broad view Irelands wealth is based on notions of property prices and easy-come-easy-go multinationals. It wouldn't take much for us to become "poor" again, very quickly.

Agricultural industry is the only thing that's reliable, but enough to keep a country wealthy? Doubtful.

Yes, there are certainly poor countries.

Stovepipe

Moldova is the leading smuggler of cigarettes and women forced into prostitution; it is essentially a gangster state, as are many of the former Russian republics. I recall talking to a guy from Russia, living in Dublin, who wouldnt ever approach a Garda, to do something as simple as ask for directions. If he tried it in Russia, they'd try and force a payoff or treat him like a chump. The concept that the police are on your side was alien to him.

YFlyer

Morocco be class as poor.

4068ac1elhodqr

Some poor(ish) African countries have very rich people indeed:
The son (Obiang) of Equatorial Guinea's authoritarian President (of 4 decades) Teodoro Obiang Nguema.
Had his motors lifted by the Swiss due to pending corruption type charges.

x7 Ferraris (inc yellow hybrid €2.5m), x3 Lamborghinis (inc €5m Veneno Roadster), x5 Bentleys, a Maserati and a McLaren.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/09/29/swiss-auction-25-supercars-seized-son-equitoreal-guinea-leader/

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

YFlyer wrote: »

Morocco be class as poor.

No. While classed as a developing country, it's GDP is good, resources, and distribution of wealth are quite reasonable,

YFlyer

Julian Agreeable Cobra wrote: »

No. While classed as a developing country, it's GDP is good, resources, and distribution of wealth are quite reasonable,

What resources does it have? Potential solar power for Europe.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

YFlyer wrote: »

What resources does it have? Potential solar power for Europe.

Tourism, telecoms, information technology, and textiles are the main industries.

Natural resources
Phosphates
Iron ore
Lead
Manganese
Zinc
Gold
Copper
Cobalt
Nickel
Antimony
Tungsten
Molybdenum
Tin
Uranium
Silver

YFlyer

Julian Agreeable Cobra wrote: »

Tourism, telecoms, information technology, and textiles are the main industries.

Natural resources
Phosphates
Iron ore
Lead
Manganese
Zinc
Gold
Copper
Cobalt
Nickel
Antimony
Tungsten
Molybdenum
Tin
Uranium
Silver

Thanks. I'll look into those.

Annurca Apples

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

So it has many poor people, but isnt a poor country?

Fourth largest natural resources in the world for example

Resources doesn't equal wealth. Productivity is a closer proxy for wealth.

In fact countries with large reserves of natural resources are often poorer as the elite and upper echelons focus on milking those resources to the neglect of other industries and sectors.

Jimbob1977

Niger, West Africa.

90% unemployment

90% illiteracy

Eight children on average per mother

Polio and similar diseases still exist

Rubbish all over the streets

Scorching weather. Sand encroaching.

Landlocked

Major export (uranium) no longer wanted after the Cold War ended.

Corruption

Tribal issues

A real eye-opener

Believe it or not.... the capital was safer than many Irish streets

brevity

A lot of these countries are ravaged by conflicts and civil wars and corruption. This has been going on for generations. Coup after coup. International meddling has a part to play too.

It’s very easy to say they should do this and do that from behind a keyboard.

Annurca Apples

For true wealth to be created it's important that countrie's institutions are structured in alignment with human nature, true human nature.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Annurca Apples wrote: »

For true wealth to be created it's important that nata countrie's institutions are structured in alignment with human nature, true human nature.

. Care to elaborate?

DEFTLEFTHAND

Proper order and instruction.

For eg Rhodesia went from the bread basket of Africa to a sh1hole once the regime changed .

Mad_maxx

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

Niger, West Africa.

90% unemployment

90% illiteracy

Eight children on average per mother

Polio and similar diseases still exist

Rubbish all over the streets

Scorching weather. Sand encroaching.

Landlocked

Major export (uranium) no longer wanted after the Cold War ended.

Corruption

Tribal issues

A real eye-opener

Believe it or not.... the capital was safer than many Irish streets

How could 90% of people be unemployed, surely subsistence farming is a common feature?

Your Face

Let them eat cake*

*aware of actual historical context.

Annurca Apples

Julian Agreeable Cobra wrote: »

. Care to elaborate?

John Adam's and Alexander Hamilton, who played important roles in structuring the US constitution had a good understanding of human nature, and the propensity of people to become tyrants should opportunity present itself. Hence the terms "checks and balances" which is often heard in US political discourse. John Adam's in particular understood that the population should not be trusted to make important decisions via referendum, such as Brexit. Look at the destruction which will be caused by Brexit by allowing the electorate to make the decision.

Jimbob1977

Mad_maxx wrote: »

How could 90% of people be unemployed, surely subsistence farming is a common feature?

Sorry - I meant the capital city of Niamey.

In the countryside, they are running subsistence farms. Drought and famine are common.

In the city, the family tend to be dependent on a single breadwinner.

Wanderer78

Annurca Apples wrote:

John Adam's and Alexander Hamilton, who played important roles in structuring the US constitution had a good understanding of human nature, and the propensity of people to become tyrants should opportunity present itself. Hence the terms "checks and balances" which is often heard in US political discourse. John Adam's in particular understood that the population should not be trusted to make important decisions via referendum, such as Brexit. Look at the destruction which will be caused by Brexit by allowing the electorate to make the decision.

Yea democracy is a dreadful idea, thankfully we don't actually have that kind of governance

Annurca Apples

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Yea democracy is a dreadful idea, thankfully we don't actually have that kind of governance

When did I say democracy is a terrible idea?

Did I say people shouldn't be allowed choose their leaders?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Annurca Apples wrote: »

When did I say democracy is a terrible idea?

Did I say people shouldn't be allowed choose their leaders?

Democracy means an awful lot more than simply choosing leaders. It involves choosing all members of an assembly or parliament and having a say all aspects of government and decision making, as well as the practice or principles of social equality.

Pawwed Rig

Work ethic and productivity are as important as natural resources hence the reason Ireland is now going well whereas Greece is still a basket case. Places like Saudi and UAE would crumble to the ground if the oil revenue disappeared (which would not be a bad thing imo).

Ireland has benefited greatly from proximity and an inheritance of a work ethic that chases more than feeding the immediate family. Other places without that work ethic need to rely on their natural resources to generate wealth. The most successful countries (Germany, Scandinavia et al) have had generations of this work ethic to build upon.

Annurca Apples

Julian Agreeable Cobra wrote: »

Democracy means an awful lot more than simply choosing leaders. It involves choosing all members of an assembly or parliament and having a say all aspects of government and decision making, as well as the practice or principles of social equality.

I notice that doesn't include referenda on important decisions such as Brexit or monetary policy.

Wanderer78

Pawwed Rig wrote:

Work ethic and productivity are as important as natural resources hence the reason Ireland is now going well whereas Greece is still a basket case. Places like Saudi and UAE would crumble to the ground if the oil revenue disappeared (which would not be a bad thing imo).

Greece was thrown under the bus, so that the status quo of the actual axis of power remained the same in the EU, it worked, for now!

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Greece was thrown under the bus, so that the status quo of the actual axis of power remained the same in the EU, it worked, for now!

No. Greece made to real effort to increase productivity nor to enforce austerity measures.

Wanderer78

Annurca Apples wrote:

I notice that doesn't include referenda on important decisions such as Brexit or monetary policy.

We ve decided, or have we, that monetary systems are best left to 'the experts', as democratic decisions would be bad for us for such things, so these experts (bankers) are just the folks for the job!

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Annurca Apples wrote: »

I notice that doesn't include referenda on important decisions such as Brexit or monetary policy.

.

Of course it does. By very definition it does. And 'the practice or principles of social equality.'.


But you're determined to ignore anything contrary, so...….

Wanderer78

Julian Agreeable Cobra wrote:

No. Greece made to real effort to increase productivity nor to enforce austerity measures.

varoufakis's 'adults in the room' is worth a read, even some of the main 'negotiators' including lagarde knew the bail out program of Greece was gonna fail, she admitted it to him during the process, and she wasn't the only one. Varoufakis tried implement measures to try grow Greece out of the problem, he effectively wasn't allowed, hence his resignation. Austerity is known to be counter-productive in achieving it's goals, political scientist mark blyth has done great work on proving this

Annurca Apples

Julian Agreeable Cobra wrote: »

Of course it does. By very definition it does. And 'the practice or principles of social equality.'.


But you're determined to ignore anything contrary, so...….

It's not a good idea to allow the masses to make such decisions. Crowds can behave in very strange ways which are not to the benefit of the crowd itself. It is better to elect representatives to make such decisions. There is no ideal system of course, but Brexit illustrates the stupidity of the crowd.

Wanderer78

Annurca Apples wrote:

It's not a good idea to allow the masses to make such decisions. Crowds can behave in very strange ways which are not to the benefit of the crow itself. It is better to elect representatives to make such decisions.

So we should have 'selective' democracy or something?

Sonny678

Ireland until very recently was a poor country. In 19th century the worst human tragedy in Western Europe was the Irish famine where 1 million starved to death and 1 million emigrated. In 1920s the Irish free state was founded and the Brits took all the money out of the country. There was very little capital in Ireland. There was the odd scheme like ESB works on Shannon but in the 20s 30s and 40s Ireland was economic wasteland. It was getting worse . In 1950s 100000s of Irish people were emigrating especially to English cities of London Manchester liverpool and Birmingham. The 50s was a lowpoint.
In 1960s Lemass and Tk Whitaker starting to change the mindset of government thinking to a more outward approach. But throughout 70s and 80s Ireland was still the sickman of Europe.

Then in a generation everything changed. Joining the EEC in 1973 was an important step. But another factor was the gamechanger. No country in Western Europe has undergone such a transformation in last 35 years as Ireland. 35 years ago Ireland was an economic, social and cultural basket case. Now it is a liberal country, which is now per capita one of richest countries in the world. The 11th richest country in the World per capta. Why did this happen ? US multinationals. Which is scary because if these companies where to leave in the future ( and it would take maybe a massive depression in the US or maybe US administration that found a way to force companies out of Ireland back home to the US ) if this happened Ireland wud become Detriot overnight. Yes Ireland still has many problems like eg Health system , homelessness , bad planning etc. But overall it is much richer then it was 30 years ago.

Three stats show how multinationals have helped Ireland no longer being a poor country.

1 US multi nationals have invested more into Ireland then into China , India , Russia and Brazil all combined.
2 The country US mulitnationals have invested more in the world per capita is Ireland.
3 US multinationals have invested 450 billion dollars in Ireland.

Theres ur reason , The Brits left took all their capital and money . We were poor before the Brits left , and it continued for decades after they left , if anything things worsened. This countries fortunes upturn when US multinationals come to this shore.

Wanderer78

Sonny678 wrote:

There ur a reason , The Brits left took all their capital and money . We were poor before the Brits left , and it continued for decades after they left , if anything things worsened. This countries fortunes upturn when US multinationals come to this shore.

...and it wouldn't break them if they paid a few more quid into the kitty, since we ve looked after them very well