Hard wired dash cam and car warranty

Irish Stones

On Saturday I had the first annual vehicle check, the one required to keep the warranty effective.

On this car I mounted a dash cam 5 months ago.



When I collected my car two hours later, the head of the garage contested the fact that I had my dash cam hard wired.
What I did on my car was to insert a piggyback fuse in the place of the cig lighter fuse in the box, so no wire was cut. I connected the negative to a metal bracket next to the fuse box, so I didn't interfere with anything of the car.


The head of the garage said that what I did makes the warranty void, because I could alter the "current balance around the car" and that the body computer or other control units could log this and make the warranty void if any issue should arise in the near future.
I objected that hard wiring a device to the same fuse of the cig light equates to connecting the same device to the lighter socket, in term of circuitry.
He wouldn't listen to me and just said he was going to turn a blind eye on the matter and let me go.


How right was he?
Has anybody of you had the same issue with a garage during a check in the warranty period?

Zubeneschamali

Irish Stones wrote: »

Has anybody of you had the same issue with a garage during a check in the warranty period?

I have bought 7 cars new over the years and have never heard of such a check.

kirving

As an engineer, I'd be on your side, in terms of basic electronics.

As an engineer who works in sensitive automotive electronics, I'm afraid he's correct, even if "Balance the current around the car" is not the right way to put it.

There may be additional interference filtering between the 12V socket that you can't see, or generated purely by the design/length of cable routing to the outlet.

By directly interfering with the fusebox you could upset this, and may cause EMI in areas that the car was not tested to comply with. It would be tested with the expectation that the customer would connect at the 12V socket itself. In that sense, you have interfered with the electronics and they'd be entitled to void the warranty.

Now in 99.9% of cases, it's absolutely fine and the car can deal with it, but there absolutely is a potential to affect another system. I wired a dashcam in the exact same way as yourself - all good. Also did a USB port to charge a phone - radio reception cut out entirely.

You don't want to be arguing the toss when it comes to a car under warranty, as when you get to sensitive electronics. I can't go into it but I have seen some crazy effects of interference between car electronics systems that you would never think possible.

vectra

Never had an issue with any of my new cars I fitted dashcams to,
I also have enabled options in the cars with software and never had an issue either.
I think somebody loves his job and being "full of his own importance"

ArrBee

No expert in this but I would expect that consumer law would at least protect you in so far as not having a blanket void of the warranty.

What I mean is, if you have a problem related to the electrical load on the car - they might be able to argue there is no warranty cover.
I don't see how they could not cover the car mechanically though.

Also, any assertion by them that you are not covered can be challenged. just like faults that are out of warranty periods can come under an expectation of what is reasonably covered.

kirving

vectra wrote: »

Never had an issue with any of my new cars I fitted dashcams to,
I also have enabled options in the cars with software and never had an issue either.
I think somebody loves his job and being "full of his own importance"

Just because you haven't noticed an issued, doesn't mean that a system in the car isn't logging internal faults (that aren't going to be visible on a standard DTC check), or affecting another system in some way. Not that it actually is in your case, but it certainly could be.

Enabling options is one thing - these have been validated by the manufacturer before mass production as reliable and will not affect other systems.

While a normal 12V socket wired camera almost certainly won't cause a problem, and a fuse-tap shouldn't and probably won't cause a problem, it's beyond almost everyone but the designers of the electrical system to certify that it's OK.

Irish Stones

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I have bought 7 cars new over the years and have never heard of such a check.

It's the annual inspection/servicing that manufacturers ask you to do at their network to keep your warranty working.
What they do is, basically, check for any issue they find or that you report, and change the engine oil, filter, and pollen filter.

Irish Stones

Kevin Irving wrote: »

There may be additional interference filtering between the 12V socket that you can't see, or generated purely by the design/length of cable routing to the outlet.

So, a device connected to the socket might be fine, and the same device connected from, say, behind the socket might be not fine?

By directly interfering with the fusebox you could upset this, and may cause EMI in areas that the car was not tested to comply with. It would be tested with the expectation that the customer would connect at the 12V socket itself. In that sense, you have interfered with the electronics and they'd be entitled to void the warranty.

He argued that even removing the wire tap from the fuse box before taking the car to the service if a problem should arise, would have the warranty void all the same because some of the car's control units might have logged that the trouble was generated by a "hand made tapping".

I wired a dashcam in the exact same way as yourself - all good. Also did a USB port to charge a phone - radio reception cut out entirely.

What I did was to put a piggyback fuse for the dash cam, and to the same new fuse I connected a new lighter socket for the GPS navigator plug, in order not to have any cable running before my eyes.
So far I've been lucky and everything has been working fine.


Thanks for your explanation!

Irish Stones

vectra wrote: »

I think somebody loves his job and being "full of his own importance"

I had the same feeling, that the garage boss would like to listen to the sound of his voice while he was lecturing me about cars' electronic.
But anyway, he might be right.

Irish Stones

ArrBee wrote: »

What I mean is, if you have a problem related to the electrical load on the car - they might be able to argue there is no warranty cover.
I don't see how they could not cover the car mechanically though.

This is a good point, though nowadays cars are more electronic than mechanic, so the chance that a problem might hit the car is higher in the electronic department.

HailSatan

Kevin Irving wrote: »

As an engineer, I'd be on your side, in terms of basic electronics.

As an engineer who works in sensitive automotive electronics, I'm afraid he's correct, even if "Balance the current around the car" is not the right way to put it.

There may be additional interference filtering between the 12V socket that you can't see, or generated purely by the design/length of cable routing to the outlet.

By directly interfering with the fusebox you could upset this, and may cause EMI in areas that the car was not tested to comply with. It would be tested with the expectation that the customer would connect at the 12V socket itself. In that sense, you have interfered with the electronics and they'd be entitled to void the warranty.

Now in 99.9% of cases, it's absolutely fine and the car can deal with it, but there absolutely is a potential to affect another system. I wired a dashcam in the exact same way as yourself - all good. Also did a USB port to charge a phone - radio reception cut out entirely.

You don't want to be arguing the toss when it comes to a car under warranty, as when you get to sensitive electronics. I can't go into it but I have seen some crazy effects of interference between car electronics systems that you would never think possible.

What did you do in the end, abandon it or find a solution?


Are there any other electronics we shouldnt have in a car? Those Bluetooth fm transmitters? 5g phones? Any phones? GPS trackers? HID lights? 230v inverters, they'd surely render a warranty void?

HailSatan

Irish Stones wrote: »

This is a good point, though nowadays cars are more electronic than mechanic, so the chance that a problem might hit the car is higher in the electronic department.

Yer man in the dealers is a ****ehawk. Try find somewhere else for warranty stuff if you can. Next we'll only be allowed buy bulbs and fuses and batteries from the dealer "just in case"

bucketybuck

You might not like it but the guy was absolutely right, in principle anyway.

I've seen any amount of electrical faults caused by aftermarket electronics fitted to vehicles by the owners or people doing a job for them. Trackers and cameras mostly, extra lights and accessories common as well. When vehicles are getting more and more complex electronically and with interlinking systems then people need to accept that their one little repair could easily have an effect in a different system. I have seen vehicles knocked out because of a fault in the radio and that was years ago, its even more important today.

People often don't realise the knock on effect their simple little job can have in modern vehicles, and conversely when you get these mystery faults it can be a real pain in the balls to identify them when there is something there you don't even know about.

In terms of warranty he is sorta right, if you modify the wiring then warranty won't cover any subsequent repair costs. It won't void the vehicle warranty entirely though, they can't discharge their obligations that easily.

HailSatan

bucketybuck wrote: »

You might not like it but the guy was absolutely right, in principle anyway.

I've seen any amount of electrical faults caused by aftermarket electronics fitted to vehicles by the owners or people doing a job for them. Trackers and cameras mostly, extra lights and accessories common as well. When vehicles are getting more and more complex electronically and with interlinking systems then people need to accept that their one little repair could easily have an effect in a different system. I have seen vehicles knocked out because of a fault in the radio and that was years ago, its even more important today.

People often don't realise the knock on effect their simple little job can have in modern vehicles, and conversely when you get these mystery faults it can be a real pain in the balls to identify them when there is something there you don't even know about.

In terms of warranty he is sorta right, if you modify the wiring then warranty won't cover any subsequent repair costs. It won't void the vehicle warranty entirely though, they can't discharge their obligations that easily.

Piggy back fuse though

Galway_guy_33

Maybe there is another reason why he brought this to your attention..... they dont like the idea of it recording while they have it in the workshop maybe?


I too installed a dash cam in my car last year, I wanted the parking mode feature so I went for the additional battery pack which charges direct from the 12volt socket in the boot so no hard wiring... they cant argue the warranty issue then.

swarlb

vectra wrote: »

Never had an issue with any of my new cars I fitted dashcams to,
I also have enabled options in the cars with software and never had an issue either.
I think somebody loves his job and being "full of his own importance"

Why is it here (boards) that people who are in charge of a particular job are 'full of their own importance', or 'out to get you'.

Here's a very simplistic view of the matter....

The 'buck' as regards warranty, stands firmly with the person who wields the 'yes or no' stick within whatever organisation manufactured your car.
having dealt with these people over the years, the power they hold is immense, and NO amount of common sense will dictate they way they think.
It could be as simple as putting a comma in the wrong place in PWA (pre works authorisation) to submitting a claim on the wrong coloured paper.
The service manager (or Dealer Principal in many cases) have no power over these people.

So, next time a service manager or adviser, or whatever they are called these days, tells you something that you may not agree with (and then tells you, he'll let it pass)
Be Thankful.... and thank them accordingly.

HailSatan

swarlb wrote: »

Why is it here (boards) that people who are in charge of a particular job are 'full of their own importance', or 'out to get you'.

Here's a very simplistic view of the matter....

The 'buck' as regards warranty, stands firmly with the person who wields the 'yes or no' stick within whatever organisation manufactured your car.
having dealt with these people over the years, the power they hold is immense, and NO amount of common sense will dictate they way they think.
It could be as simple as putting a comma in the wrong place in PWA (pre works authorisation) to submitting a claim on the wrong coloured paper.
The service manager (or Dealer Principal in many cases) have no power over these people.

So, next time a service manager or adviser, or whatever they are called these days, tells you something that you may not agree with (and then tells you, he'll let it pass)
Be Thankful.... and thank them accordingly.

Piggy back fuse though

kirving

HailSatan wrote: »

What did you do in the end, abandon it or find a solution?


Are there any other electronics we shouldnt have in a car? Those Bluetooth fm transmitters? 5g phones? Any phones? GPS trackers? HID lights? 230v inverters, they'd surely render a warranty void?

I ended up abandoning it and used a different charger instead.

No - the car is designed to deal with electrical interference in known and expected areas. In turn, devices like 230V inverters from reputable manufacturers would be certified against the relevant CE standards to ensure that that they shouldn't damaged the car.

Adding a fuse-tap before the 12V socket that customer is otherwise expected to use is bypassing the "standard" and may cause unexpected behavior.

I've rarely if ever seen a good looking set of aftermarket (non-OEM) HID's, so I would tend to question the overall quality of their electronics, and not a hope I'd be putting them in a car still under manufacturers warranty.

HailSatan

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Adding a fuse-tap before the 12V socket that customer is otherwise expected to use is bypassing the "standard" and may cause unexpected behavior.

What would it be bypassing.

kirving

HailSatan wrote: »

What would it be bypassing.

To start with, the 12V socket itself encloses the central conductor with the outer ground/shield.

Often, the 12V-5V conversion electronics are enclosed within this space to add further EMI shielding. The actual length of cable used from the fuse to the 12V outlet may in itself give a shielding effect, as can other electronics that you don't see behind the dash.

It's beyond my area of expertise, but as I said, I've seen/head of electrical interference between various systems on vehicles that generate errors that simply seem completely implausible, but have nonetheless happened and been corrected for.

HailSatan

I don't think he was mashing the 12V-5V electronics into the actual fuse holder like.

Ultimately are you saying **** electronics causes problems?


Id have no issues with a fuse tap to power quality branded DC DC converters that have passed the required certification.


Yer man in the dealers sounds like a giant pain in the balls if you didn't buy your screen wash and mats from him and you needed to make a wareanty claim.

HailSatan

Lol problem solved.


Piggy back fuse to magic 12v socket.

Measure the length of the magic wire from your magic fuse box to your magic oem 12v socket.

Et voila, any electrical gremlins are the exact same gremlins you would have had anyway. Or not. Completely depends on the quality of your plug in electronics.


12V FEMALE CIG SOCKET +PIGGY BACK LOW PROFILE MICRO BLADE FUSE HARD WIRE

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F202444477869

kirving

HailSatan wrote: »

I don't think he was mashing the 12V-5V electronics into the actual fuse holder like.

I was unclear, 12V-5V electronics are often enclosed within a normal 12V plug.

HailSatan wrote: »

Ultimately are you saying **** electronics causes problems?

Not necessarily bad electronics. Just different frequencies interacting in a way that may not have been anticipated by the manufacturer.

HailSatan wrote: »

Id have no issues with a fuse tap to power quality branded DC DC converters that have passed the required certification.

Automotive certified electronics are expensive, and I'm sure almost no fuse tap you can buy is certified to anything like the levels that your car has been.

In any case, even if something has been certified itself, it has not been approved by the manufacturer to be used in such a manner, near to other sensitive electronics. Not that it will cause any issue, ever, but it could. And the could part is where your warranty matters.

HailSatan wrote: »

Yer man in the dealers sounds like a giant pain in the balls if you didn't buy your screen wash and mats from him and you needed to make a wareanty claim.

If you worked in this area, you'd agree with the dealer.

HailSatan wrote: »

Lol problem solved.

Piggy back fuse to magic 12v socket.

Measure the length of the magic wire from your magic fuse box to your magic oem 12v socket.

Et voila, any electrical gremlins are the exact same gremlins you would have had anyway. Or not. Completely depends on the quality of your plug in electronics.

Now you're just being deliberately obtuse. Would you be comfortable flying in an aircraft some lad put an eBay fuse tap in? Get a degree in automotive systems engineering and I might take you seriously.

HailSatan

Kevin Irving wrote: »

I was unclear, 12V-5V electronics are often enclosed within a normal 12V plug.




Not necessarily bad electronics. Just different frequencies interacting in a way that may not have been anticipated by the manufacturer.



Automotive certified electronics are expensive, and I'm sure almost no fuse tap you can buy is certified to anything like the levels that your car has been.

In any case, even if something has been certified itself, it has not been approved by the manufacturer to be used in such a manner, near to other sensitive electronics. Not that it will cause any issue, ever, but it could. And the could part is where your warranty matters.



If you worked in this area, you'd agree with the dealer.

I don't think he was mashing the 12V-5V electronics into the actual fuse holder like.

Where you you source your certified fuses.

HailSatan

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Now you're just being deliberately obtuse. Would you be comfortable flying in an aircraft some lad put an eBay fuse tap in? Get a degree in automotive systems engineering and I might take you seriously.

DaveyDave

Funny, a relative of mine had a dealer fight that an electrical fault was caused by the hard wired dashcam. Wire loom had to be replaced or something, quoting a nice chunk of change to fix. It ended up being a warranty claim and a simple call to dealer HQ got it sorted.

They got a new car every two years, high spec too. Dealer took it personally as if he assembled it himself. Car left the factory with dodgy wiring. It happens.

HailSatan

DaveyDave wrote: »

Dealer took it personally as if he assembled it himself.

Maybe he had a degree in automotive systems engineering like the service manager in the Op's case. Probably a masters or a PhD really if he was overall manager there!

Del2005

DaveyDave wrote: »

Funny, a relative of mine had a dealer fight that an electrical fault was caused by the hard wired dashcam. Wire loom had to be replaced or something, quoting a nice chunk of change to fix. It ended up being a warranty claim and a simple call to dealer HQ got it sorted.

They got a new car every two years, high spec too. Dealer took it personally as if he assembled it himself. Car left the factory with dodgy wiring. It happens.

That's the issue with putting in uncertified electrical items. If you leave the car as it left the factory they have to fix it. If you modify with uncertified items then you have to prove it wasn't your modification that caused the issue.

With the way insurance is going in this country I'd be more worried about possible insurance issues with modifications than warranty issues

HailSatan

Del2005 wrote: »

That's the issue with putting in uncertified electrical items. If you leave the car as it left the factory they have to fix it. If you modify with uncertified items then you have to prove it wasn't your modification that caused the issue.

With the way insurance is going in this country I'd be more worried about possible insurance issues with modifications than warranty issues

You'll hardly be allowed sit in it soon in case of static.

nogoodnamesleft

Kevin Irving wrote: »

To start with, the 12V socket itself encloses the central conductor with the outer ground/shield.

Often, the 12V-5V conversion electronics are enclosed within this space to add further EMI shielding. The actual length of cable used from the fuse to the 12V outlet may in itself give a shielding effect, as can other electronics that you don't see behind the dash.

It's beyond my area of expertise, but as I said, I've seen/head of electrical interference between various systems on vehicles that generate errors that simply seem completely implausible, but have nonetheless happened and been corrected for.

Cant say I agree with you there. Most of the time on a car the earth is taken from the closest point on the chassis on the car (which are dotted around a car) and not brought back to the fusebox only the live for what ever circuit. Its also a very short run say 1metre from the fuse box to the "new" 12V socket for the dash cam. Electrically its partically the same plugging the dash cam into the existing 12V socket compared to the "new" 12V socket.

The electrical load of a dash cam is also very low (approx 1A) compared to say a rear heated screen, heated seats etc hence the induced emf will be very low on the dash cam circuit. The camera cables (for picture) are also screened to ensure that emf interference from the cars electrical systems dont cause issues to the quality of the picture recorded by the dash cam(to the rear cam (if present) and from the power source to the camera itself.

Toyotafanboi

Del2005 wrote: »

That's the issue with putting in uncertified electrical items. If you leave the car as it left the factory they have to fix it. If you modify with uncertified items then you have to prove it wasn't your modification that caused the issue.

I rarely agree with you Del :pac: but you're on the money there.