Help with poor groups

scwazrh

I’m looking for some help on understanding why my groups are poor.Theory being if I can, with help understand the cause of the problem , I will then be able to fix it.

My setup was .22lr cz455 20” heavy barrel thumbhole stock on a bipod and hawke vantage 6x24-50 scope .I was shooting at 100yds with little breeze in a sheltered area from a seated bench , no bags. Ammo was CCI HP subs and from the same 100 round box.

I’ve two pics attached , the first is the large target and the rings are 7/8” apart.5 shots ,first one low and the other 4 are touching. No adjustment to point of aim but the low hit was the first shot since cleaning and a cold barrel.I wouldn’t have an issue with those results .

The next picture shows the problems. 6 targets with 5 shots each , numbered by row in the order I shot them .A total of 30 shots in just under 10 mins so not rushed. No change to point of aim , no obvious change to hold of firearm or shoulder pressure .completly different hit points and not really anything in common between them .

Anyone able to shine some light on it or suggest what I could try to resolve it?

Sorry if longwinded but wanted to give all info needed

gmc999

Look on Google for a trigger control chart that might help

Cass

First impressions are all the shots are problematic on the vertical axis. Vertical issues are (usually, but not always) a shooter issue (shooter being the rifle or the person). Horizontal issues are wind related.

So there are four things to look at to improve this vertical stringing:

1. The equipment - Bipod, rests, back bag, stock, rings, suppressor.
2. Scope - Parallax and testing (box and linear)
3. The shooter - Technique, breathing, trigger pull.
4. Ammo - Different types, speeds, etc..

Now this may get long, the post, but please bear with me.

The equipment

We won't go into changing the trigger, scope, rings, etc. We'll just concentrate on working with what you have.

First thing is dump the bipod. They are good and steady, but they produce a "bouncing" effect and depending on the load you put on the bipod the reaction when pulling the trigger, recoil, and cycling can effect each shot.

Get a solid and heavy rest. Borrow one if you have to. Also a solid rear sand bag. You want the rifle in as steady and secure position as possible so there is no "human" factor in the shooting.

Make sure your scope is tightened and the rings are too.

DO NOT use a suppressor in any of the testing, checking, zeroing, etc. The rifle should be fired without a suppressor to eliminate it as a cause, but also it's easy to adjust later for the suppressor when everything is done.

Scope

Parallax

99% of people maybe don't realise their parallax is not set right. Parallax is the consistency of the sight picture in relation to the crosshair/scope when you look through the scope.

In simpler terms it's like looking at the eyes of a painting and they seem to follow you. You know full well the painted eyes cannot move but it's looks as if they are.

If you have your rifle clamped so it does not move and you make no contact with it (not vital, but i prefer to eliminate any movement of the scope by touching the rifle), look down the scope to the target. Now slowly move your head, not eye, but your head while looking at the target. If the crosshair "moves" with the movement of your head, or to be exact so there is no confusion, gives the appearance of moving then your parallax is not set.

If the parallax on a scope is correctly set then when you move you head your crosshairs will remain on the same POA you set it at when clamping the rifle. If the crosshairs can "move" with your head movement due to improperly set parallax then the crosshair will give a, suppose you'd call it, false POA.

The picture below shows what happens when you move your head and the crosshairs "move" with you. IOW improperly set parallax. Originally the crosshairs were on the target. As the shooter moves their head up and slightly to the right, the crosshairs move down, and slightly left. This is a parallax issue.



Parallax can be adjusted or eliminated by adjusting the eye relief and focus as necessary to the point where you have clear sight picture, target picture and no movement of the crosshairs. It can be easy or it can take a little time to get exactly right, but the difference will be immediately noticeable with more consistent groupings, no loss/shift of zero, and if the rifle and ammo are good a reduction (won't say elimination) of flyers.

Testing

Linear Test.

This is a simple test. Place a target (blank sheet of paper at least 48 inches tall and 24" wide) at a set distance with a single aim point/dot. With your scope mounted you take up a solid and stable shooting position. Have the gun as "clamped" as possible to avoid errors. Have the scope elevation set at 0 or bottomed out. Now dial up in increments of 5 or 10 MOA (or any amount you want) and fire a single shot after each adjustment.

You MUST keep the same point of aim throughout this test. Also use the same amount of adjustment each time until you run out of adjustment. ?When you have no adjustment left take the target down, and measure the distances between each bullet hole in the target. They should be equidistant. They should also be perfectly vertical. Any continuous left/right adjustment can be down to either poorly mounted scope (not perfectly aligned when mounted) or inability of the scope to track straight up and down. Do this once or twice to verify.



Return to Zero test

Simple test. With your scope mounted and rifle zeroed at 100 yards set yourself up much as above at a target. Fire 3 to 5 shots to create a zero group. Record the setting on the scope for your zero as you'll have to return to this. Now start to adjust the scope as much as you can (through it's entire range of adjustment) up, down, left, right and combinations of all. Now return the scope to the recorded zero. Fire a shot. It should be in or clipping the group you just fired. If not then it could be a scope tracking issue. As with all tests it's best to try it a few times to prevent corruption of the results from shooter error, wind, shooting position, etc.

Box Test

Put up a sheet of paper (blank) at 100 yards. About 48" square would be fine but as big as you have is grand. Find the dead centre of the sheet of paper. Place a half inch black dot in the centre. This is your aim point. You want no other markings on the paper to distract you. You need to be very careful that its 100 yard and no more or less than 100 by a yard. Most scopes click values are designed to work at 100 yards so you really need to be sure of the distance. Fire a couple of shots, and make sure you are in the bull with each one, and your zero is perfectly on for 100. That means not an inch high, or low.

Once you have the "perfect" zero put up a fresh target or if they are all in the black dot you can use the same sheet. Again making sure its still as bang on for 100 yards as possible. Now dial up 10 MOA (40clicks) on the scope. If the scope is worked in 1 click = 1cm @ 100 yads dial on 25clicks. That'll give you 25cm or roughly 10 inches. Aim at the bullseye and fire.

Now dial right 10 MOA (for 0.25 click valus scope) or 25 clicks (for 1cm per click). Again aim at the bullseye, and fire.

Now dial down 20 MOA (80 clicks in a 0.25 clcik value scope) or 50 clicks (if the scope is 1cm per click ). Aim at the bullseye and fire.

Now dial left 20 MOA (80 clicks in a 0.25 clcik value scope) or 50 clicks (if the scope is 1cm per click ). Aim at the bullseye and fire.

Now dial up 20 MOA (80 clicks in a 0.25 clcik value scope) or 50 clicks (if the scope is 1cm per click ). Aim at the bullseye and fire.

It's important you only fire 1 shot per adjustment. Measure the distances from holes to holes. The holes of the bullets should "draw" a perfect (within a half an inch for human error) square. You should have something like this:





The shooter.

Technique.

Each person will develop their own technique and once it works it doesn't matter however for this exercise i'll ask you follow my advice and try this method instead of whatever way you are used to shooting.

With your rifle in the rest and back bag make sure you shoulder the rifle firmly up against your shoulder. Last 3 fingers (middle to baby) wrap around the grip. You use a pulling motion, directly back towards your shoulder. Place your thumb along top of grip aiming towards the back of the bolt. No pressure on your thumb. Your Index finger gentle touching the trigger. Only the tip of the finger (half way between the last knuckle and the actual tip) should be on the trigger. Using the three fingers on the grip i pull the rifle into my shoulder, enough to secure and keep steady, but not enough that i "cramp" under the pressure. I exert no "fist" grip which will cause the rifle to lean when i fire. No tension in my shoulder and when i calm and comfortable, i fire.

This picture should help you understand what i'm taking about:



Breathing and Trigger Pull

These two topics go hand in hand as one is dependant on the other. The first thing we need to do is check our trigger. Whether it is the factory fitted trigger or an aftermarket kit you should know what the pull weight on your trigger is. The trigger should be light enough to break with minimum pressure, but not so light as to cause an accidental discharge or slam fire. This is when the action of cycling the bolt causes the sear to release, and the firing pin strikes the primer, firing the round. This occurs when the trigger is too light, and the safety mechanism of the trigger becomes redundant. Only you can determine your ideal weight. Some enjoy half a pound or even ounces, and other like a heavier pull. The issue with a heavy trigger is it can lead to other side effects such as "pulling" the rifle which the recoil will exaggerate, flinching as you do not know when the trigger will fire, etc. This will result in verticals on the target, and your groups will be affected.

Trigger pull should be one clean, crisp movement. Ideally you want the tip of the finger or more specifically the pad of the tip of the finger to pull the trigger (halfway between the tip and joint of the finger). If you use too much of the finger you can cause left/right pull as you fire. You should NEVER snap or jerk the trigger. Slow steady pressure. There should be no creep/slack on your trigger. When the shot is fired, and during follow through there should be no sideways movement through the scope. If there is, reassess your technique, position and hold.....in particular look for a loose trigger hand on the stock, a sprawled right elbow – move it closer in towards the stock, butt not firm in the shoulder, bad alignment of your body to the rifle. With your finger still depressed on the trigger and your head still on the stock/cheek piece, your crosshairs will return to the target and point of aim. This is a good indicator of correct body positioning and shooting technique.

Throughout your trigger pull, and assuming all other aspects are steady, the other thing that is important is your breathing. You should calm, relaxed, and in control of your breathing. Maximum holding period for a fit person is 8 seconds, whereas for an unfit person it is 3 seconds. You must keep yourself fit if you wish to succeed at any level of shooting. Breathing is a very important element of making a good shot. Breathing controls your body metabolism – anxiety levels, heartbeat, concentration, relaxation, muscle control, steadiness, clear sighting. Breathe in normally, breathe out, and hold breath at natural end of exhale. Settle. Fire shot. Follow through. Hold your breath for not longer than 6-8 seconds before firing. Ideally, fire your shot somewhere between 2 and 5 seconds during your hold period. If your concentration decreases or your scope picture blurs or distorts....stop.....look away at something greenish, close your eyes, take 2-3 deep breaths and then begin breathing cycle again.

Ammo

There is only one way to determine the best ammo, or more accurately, which ammo your rifle prefers. Buy at least one box of each type of ammo and do numerous 5 shot groups. Which ammo you buy is up to you, but a small tip is to look for ammo that is below the supersonic range. this means buying ammo with stated speeds of between 1050 to 1120 fps. I've always found these to work best.

Hyper velocity (supersonic rounds) are not ideally suited to standard 22lrs as the twist rate won't suit them.

Continue to do 5 shot groups but here is another tip on how to do the group shots.

Start with a clean rifle. I mean properly cleaned, not just a bore snake. A full run down on how to clean your rifle can be found here.

During this its massively important that you stick to the time rigidly. Any deviation and you need to start over. This eliminates any variance due to cooling or heating of the rifle barrel between shoots/groups.

Fire off about 10 to 15 rounds in about a minute to 90 seconds. Then stop. You're not looking for grouping or anything, just to warm up the barrel. Shoot into the backstop if you want to save a walk down to change the target. Only wait about 2 minutes from when you stop until you begin your group testing.

Fire the 5 shots of each group in a specified time. Let this be 45 seconds to a minute. Then key part is to do this for each group. So if you do the first group in 45 seconds then all the groups have to be 45 seconds. That's 9 seconds a shot.

Between groups wait for 2 minutes again to give the rifle time to cool, but not to a cold barrel, but the same temperature you had when you started the first group and had it warmed with the "blow off shots".

now do the second group in the 45 seconds. Stop, wait for 2 minutes and go onto group 3.

Do this for 5 to 10 GROUPS.

It's also a good idea to record wind conditions, direction, and weather. While vertical groups can be attributed to the shooter wind, in a 22lr, can cause some vertical depending on the terrain you are shooting on.

Lastly make sure you have an exact distance. Don't walk it or pace it out. Measure it precisely. It's why a range is good.

scwazrh

Cass , Thank you very much for such a detailed and clear explanation of the possible issues .

I’m going to work through your suggestions when I’m next on the range and will post again .A couple of comments on your points-

- I have been using a middle of the road bipod so good chance this is an issue as you suggest.i will get my hands on a rest and rear bag.

- there is parallax adjustment on the scope which I hope is accurate but will check in the method you outline

—That seems a very simple way of checking the scope.Again I would presume and hope the scope is accurate but will check so that it can be ruled out.

- On shooter technique , through trial and error since I started shooting I have a very similar technique to what you outline , however breathing and trigger pull are something to work on.

-While i have tried many different ammo brands , I haven’t tested in such an accurate method as you noted.Will try out after the other points.

Again thank you and I will report back .

Cass

scwazrh wrote: »

- I have been using a middle of the road bipod so good chance this is an issue as you suggest.i will get my hands on a rest and rear bag.

You can go back to the bipod once you have eliminated it as a cause. For testing purposes though you want a "rock" and the bipod is simply an unknown variable.

Once the rifle is shooting as you want go back to the bipod, same with the suppressor as mentioned above, and shoot away.

- there is parallax adjustment on the scope which I hope is accurate but will check in the method you outline

Don't be caught out, as i used to be, by the parallax adjustments. On scopes with them they'll have distance markings. Depending on your vision/eyesight these distances won't be exactly what you need for the distance you're shooting at.

For example my 308 is set on about 120 yards for 100 yard shooting. Combines with the focus i have no parallax issues. The best way to eliminate parallax is by sight. Once the crosshairs stop "moving" your parallax is set and the markings on your scope are irrelevant to the issue.

I had a chap with a similar issue to you about a year back. The first thing i done was check his parallax. The crosshairs moved, but as it's his rifle and his scope he had to do the adjustments as my eyes could be different. Once he set it and i checked and we're happy there was little to no movement he fired a group. It went from 1.5 inches at 50 yards to about 3/4 inch. With no other adjustments to his style, the rifle or equipment he was using this simple check eliminated nearly half his group size.

- On shooter technique , through trial and error since I started shooting I have a very similar technique to what you outline , however breathing and trigger pull are something to work on.

I could have waffled on about recoil management, battery, etc. but it's a 22lr so some things aren't really germane to the discussion.

If it's for testing only then you want to be able to control as much as you can. Like with the bipod above once you get the rifle shooting right you can go back to the "field grip" as it's minute of bunny and not MOA.

-While i have tried many different ammo brands , I haven’t tested in such an accurate method as you noted.Will try out after the other points.

It'll be a bit tedious and very anal retentive, but trust me it's worth. It'll take about an hour, to an hour and a half between all the various types but you'll have a set of data at the end that you can count on.

Two other thing i never mentioned above:

1. Record everything. I know i said about the weather, etc. but keep a record of the bullet brand, speeds, and for each different type place up a new target. This way you have a clean and unfouled reference as to how each performed. Write on the target the time of day, weather, wind condition, and the timing of your shots. DO NOT discount flyers. Even if you think you've done everything right and are sure it was the bullet's "fault" it's part of your 5 shot group and it counts.
2. As you done before maintain the same point of aim regardless of the group position. There is a difference between accuracy and precision. Accuracy is hitting where you want, and precision is doing it repeatedly. If you get a great group, consistently but it's 1 inch low and left so what. You know if the rifle and bullets keep doing this a simply adjustment of the scope will sort out the accuracy issue, but you know the precision is there. As it stands you have neither the accuracy or precision you want. This can and will be fixed. Don't let it get into your head and don't be uptight. Your mood WILL effect your shooting so try to remain calm, even if you get a flyer, and focus on your goal.

Again thank you and I will report back .

Do, i'd be interested to see if anything helped or was i simply talking out my arse (as usual )

Ghost Recon

Good thread and highly useful, informative and relevant advice from Cass, as per usual!
(I’d love a couple of hours tuition from him, if it were possible?!).

Anyway, to the OP, other than examining all that was said above...
1) Check your mounts. Get a torque screwdriver (FAT wrench) and make sure all screws are tightened as per the manufacturers specific recommendations and not just what you believe to be ‘tight enough’.
2) Did you change your stock recently? If so, you may want to have it checked by a gunsmith for the requirement of glass bedding?

cookimonster

Cass is after giving you a very extensive and detail set of procedures that are way beyound my limited knowledge, but I will throw my tupence into the pot anyhow.

Because you are using two different size targets have you by any chance changed the zoom between the first and secound set of targets?
Even if you haven't, are you using the scope on excessively high magnification? Higher levels of magnificatio can increase error, especially for smaller targets. Try using just enough power to comfortably see your point of aim. I use 6 and 8 power on centre fire at 100yrds and find 8/9 ok for .22 if reaching out to that distance.
Speaking of distance, try winding your range back in until your comfortably grouping rounds. At 50 yards any half decent .22 lR firing LV bullets should be grouping thumbnail size or smaller with scopes. If you can do this then work out to a 100 in 10 m/yrd increments and see when your groups fall apart.

Use exactly the same type targets, don't waste money on shop bought ones, theres plenty to download for free and print off at home (or work if you can). At 50 yards/mt use a fine cross hair type bull and at 100 use a heavier one but use the same size and style at appropriate distances.

With out sounding like a dick, I think its your technique and possible your set up.
Your shooting a 50mm scope, how high off the barrel is it?, how is your cheek weld?, how is your eye relief? Anything wrong here will not give good groups.
How high is the bipod?, are you leaning on your elbow joints?, are you extending your body, arms, neck etc? ( see Jason Doyle being coached by Will O'Meara Field Sports Ireland) eliminate or fill the voids in your shooting position. Is the bench too low, too high?

Again I'd say forget the 100 yrd/m range and shoot at 50, perfect this range and move up.

Cass

cookimonster wrote: »

Again I'd say forget the 100 yrd/m range and shoot at 50, perfect this range and move up.

My bad.

I keep reverting to 100 yards for two reasons:

1. I fall into the centrefire brain of thinking.
2. At 100 yards the scope gives "true" click value.

As you said it can all be done at 50 yards just by halving the click value. Still use 10 moa but expect only half that movement (5 moa "worth") at 50 yards.

Wadi14

Scwazrh I think your being a little too hard on yourself, for 100yrd with a stock rifle your nearing 1moa groups each time, that's not bad shooting at all.
So how do you improve on that. I think most has been covered above.

Firstly I wouldn't shoot for groups on a clean barrel, the groups should tighten up if the barrel is seasoned.
10 shot groups will give you more information on errors, 1 or 2 bad shoots in a 5 round group and your lost as to whats going on.
I think your rifle is capable of moa at 100 the only other thing I would look at on top of what has been mentioned is the torque on the action screws, adjust the torque and you will see the groups open up or close in.
Now for the shooter, repeatability and consistency in all you do from set up to follow through.

It has been mentioned already but your group on the shoot N see target is the best, is this down to luck or it might be the case that you can see the impact and can follow up on it with the next shoot,( positive feed back ) with the smaller bulls you may be looking for the shot as you fire if you know what I mean.

The pigeon man

Not going to be as detailed of a reply as other posters but try some better quality ammo. I find sk rifle match superb. Pm if you want to know more.

Also are you using a rear bag? If not it'll definitely improve your groups.

And finally are you using a factory trigger? A lighter trigger spring can make a world of difference. It makes it less likely for you to pull your shots off target.

Best of luck.

clivej

scwazrh wrote: »

I’m looking for some help on understanding why my groups are poor.Theory being if I can, with help understand the cause of the problem , I will then be able to fix it.

My setup was .22lr cz455 20” heavy barrel thumbhole stock on a bipod and hawke vantage 6x24-50 scope .I was shooting at 100yds with little breeze in a sheltered area from a seated bench , no bags. Ammo was CCI HP subs and from the same 100 round box.

I’ve two pics attached , the first is the large target and the rings are 7/8” apart.5 shots ,first one low and the other 4 are touching. No adjustment to point of aim but the low hit was the first shot since cleaning and a cold barrel.I wouldn’t have an issue with those results .

The next picture shows the problems. 6 targets with 5 shots each , numbered by row in the order I shot them .A total of 30 shots in just under 10 mins so not rushed. No change to point of aim , no obvious change to hold of firearm or shoulder pressure .completly different hit points and not really anything in common between them .

Anyone able to shine some light on it or suggest what I could try to resolve it?

Sorry if longwinded but wanted to give all info needed

Hi I have the same rifle you have, but with the 16" barrel. I have my CZ 455 - pillor bedded, aftermarket adjustable sear on the custom trigger (set very light, as light as possible), picatinny 20MOA rail, 10% plus firing pin spring, Hawk 8-32x56mm scope (about 1/2 mm above the barrel), FTR kevlar Bi-Pod, rear bag, 11 degree crown, and using SK yellow box standard rounds at 50m. So a good rifle and very steady setup to test and shoot.

Got out to shoot and rezero this over the weekend, and to shoot for the first time in over a year. My first shots after getting the scope zeroed again. First groups were I'd say 40mm and more using 2" shoot 'n see targets. Now as I continued shooting my groups started to get tighter as I started to relax and enjoy the day. I shot 10 round groups all the time, about 300 in total.

In the end all my shots were within 20mm 3/4" groups time after time, best were a couple of 12mm 1/2" ish. I was happy with these
groups. One big hole in the target centre and watching the rounds just drop into that hole. A 1/2"group at 50m is to me the Holy Grail of groups. Remember this in not an expensive €3000 benchrest rifle after all,just a CZ 455.
Now just to put this into perspective a 3/4" group at 50m = 1 1/2" group at 100m plus any errors that creep in at 100m, so a 2" group at 100m is not out of order, it will just p!ss you off.

Now don't get to upset with your groups just yet.

You need to have a real steady rest under your rifle both front and rear. Take as much of the shooter errors out of the equation, always.
The CZ 452/453/455 triggers are well known for being sh!te, as in to much creep (you move off target before the the bullet leaves the barrel), a heavy trigger pull (again you move off target before the the bullet leaves the barrel). So between just these 2 problems you can increase the group size in a big way and at 100m that error can add up to a bigger group.

Feisar

The old internet has a lot to answer for, for what we expect from a rifle.

https://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/22lr-rimfire-ammo-comparison-test/

.455 of an inch is the upper echelons of .22LR shooting at one hundred yards.

Yet there are vids out there saying a CZ452/455 is a half MOA gun!!!

clivej

Feisar wrote: »

The old internet has a lot to answer for, for what we expect from a rifle.

https://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/22lr-rimfire-ammo-comparison-test/

.455 of an inch is the upper echelons of .22LR shooting at one hundred yards.

Surprised how well the Lapua Standard Plus did, up there with the best expensive ammo.

Cass

@ Swarzh. Are they 2" or 3" targets in the second pic?

scwazrh

Cass wrote: »

@ Swarzh. Are they 2" or 3" targets in the second pic?

2” targets

Cass

It makes a difference when trying to identify issues.

A 2" target means the groups are not as big as one might think. A 3" target means the groups are fairly big, bigger than they should be.

I've taken your picture and based on rough measurements identified the group sizes to give an idea of what is going on.

Mr recommendation when having issues with groups, and this may sound counter productive, is to ignore wind to an extent. The issue you are having is verticals. There is no point in trying to combat both wind and your shooting. Its too much.

So start with your shooting and when you have identified and eliminated the issues causing your vertical stringing then you can focus on wind reading. In short if your group is 1/2 an inch in height but 2 inches wide i'd call that good. Simply because if you eliminate the wind factor your group is still only 1/2 which at 100 yards is 1/2 MOA and top shooting for a 22lr.

Starting with the top left. You groups size is about 7mm (just over 1/4 inch) in height and has an inch and a quarter horizontal due to wind. This is exactly what i was referencing above. If the wind was not there or you were reading the wind you have an excellent group that could technically be sub 1/2".

Move on the the top middle target. Your group size opens a little in vertial terms, but the windage is the same (see what i mean about wind not being overly important right now). You have two shots in the 10'Clock position and two just to the upper right of the bull. If you could dismiss the low (8 O'Clock shot) you once again have the same vertical as the top left target. So allowing for a flyer, pulled shot, etc. nothing major to worry you there.

Now onto the top right target. Your vertical continues to open, but there is a cause. Once again you have a "flyer". The top left shot (at 10 O'Clock) has caused your vertical to go from a possible 1/2" to an inch and a half. As i said in my previous posts you cannot discount flyers only identify what causes them and try to eliminate them. In this instance, and noting the spread in windage variance, it could be a pulled shot which coupled with an gust.


This is where things change. Now i don't know if you shot the top row first or the bottom row first. If it's the top row then things take a turn for the worse. If it was the bottom row first then you started of with issues and managed to do very well in correcting them.


Bottom left target. The wind is still gusting or holding its current value, but your verticals are opened up. 1.75 MOA with shots below the point of aim, on the point of aim and above it. This is the shooter part of what you can look at to combat this. Its either the way you load your bipod, no rear bag or some form of unsteady shooting position or technique. Very hard to impossible to identify without seeing the actual shooting.

Bottom Middle. At this point the wind has died off but your verticals are the same. 1.75moa with point of impact being top to bottom of the target.

Bottom right. Almost identical to the bottom middle target with the same vertical spread of 1.75 moa and windage of less than an inch. The windage shows that without the wind as a factor your groups could be much tighter, but there is an issue in what your using. Be that the trigger pull, only using a bipod, the ammo, improper parallax, etc.





This all might seem daunting, it's not. Everything i listed in my posts above could be done within 20 -30 minutes. Once all your checks are done get back onto targets and group testing.

One other thing and i find it helpful at times. Get someone else to shoot your rifle. For a long time i was shooting 223 or 22lr, even my hmr. Never anythig bigger. So when i started back into my 308 i found i could not group. I tried all the advice i gave you above and still my groups were not good. I got a good friend to try the rifle with the same settings, equipement and ammo. He got a ragged hole at 100 yards, compared to my 1.5-1.75 inch group.

So the issue was me, and my technique. I went back to basics and after a box and a bit of ammo i found my groups were now cloverleafing.

What it showed me, having someone shoot the rifle, was that sometimes its not the gear but the shooter. We never like to admit to ourselves that we're not all Carlos Hathcock but at times we can get into our own heads and even the mental aspect can have an effect. Too much time thinking about what could wong and you lose focus on the basics.

I hope none of that sounded in any way condescending as it's not intended as such. However better to be plain spoken and understood than sugar coat it and have the point lost.

Lastly, if anything i said also seemed like a put down, it's not. At 100 yards a 22lr acts worse than a 308 at 1,000 yards. A 5 mph wind can cause 2-3 inches of drift. Do you know how light a 5 mph is? You'd barely feel it on your face. You have some issues somewhere and luckily you can fix them cheaply, easily and have more than enough capability to do it.