Guardian Angel Prayer

Peregrinus

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

. . . In 2 Cor 5:20, Paul is not praying - he's urging the Corinthians to be reconciled to God. The word my ESV uses is "implore", and I think that captures the sense of it quite well.

That's exactly what "pray" means. Check your dictionary.

Phillip Lazy Blouse wrote: »

We all know he wasn't praying to them as one would to God . . .

And we also all know that Catholics don't pray to angels as they would to God, don't we?

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

. . . That's the problem with old English. Word usage has changed. We don't refer to "kine" and "knops" anymore.

And you're using the change in word usage as a cover for unwarranted accusations of idolatry. That's neither charitable nor edifying, Tat.

ChrisJ84

Peregrinus wrote: »

That's exactly what "pray" means. Check your dictionary.

When I look at scripture we see prayer as an activity whereby people talk to God - interceding, adoring, thanking, confessing etc., based on the fact that he can hear, has the power to act, and the wisdom to act rightly. People making requests of one another (or of another created being) is simply not seen in the same way.

By using the language of prayer in this way you must see that you are, at least, opening to door to confusion and a reasonable charge of idolatry. A couple of questions if I may.

What, exactly, do you mean by praying to angels as opposed to praying to God, and how are the two different?

What is the justification for this practice?

hinault

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

When I look at scripture we see prayer as an activity whereby people talk to God - interceding, adoring, thanking, confessing etc., based on the fact that he can hear, has the power to act, and the wisdom to act rightly. People making requests of one another (or of another created being) is simply not seen in the same way.

By using the language of prayer in this way you must see that you are, at least, opening to door to confusion and a reasonable charge of idolatry. A couple of questions if I may.

What, exactly, do you mean by praying to angels as opposed to praying to God, and how are the two different?

What is the justification for this practice?

Prayer is a means of communication with another.

Prayer can take several forms. Prayer can be a meditative communication where words are verbally uttered, or not uttered but instead contemplated in silence.

It was pointed out years ago to certain other posters here that there are distinct categories of prayer

It was also pointed out to certain posters here that those distinct categories of prayer were codified using the Latin language.

It is another of the great attributes of the Latin language that rather straight forward concepts are communicated easily. In Latin worship and veneration are distinct categories and concepts

Thankfully the Catholic Church codified these distinctions

Peregrinus

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

When I look at scripture we see prayer as an activity whereby people talk to God - interceding, adoring, thanking, confessing etc., based on the fact that he can hear, has the power to act, and the wisdom to act rightly. People making requests of one another (or of another created being) is simply not seen in the same way.

By using the language of prayer in this way you must see that you are, at least, opening to door to confusion and a reasonable charge of idolatry. A couple of questions if I may.

What, exactly, do you mean by praying to angels as opposed to praying to God, and how are the two different?

When St. Paul prays to the Ephesians, do you suppose that is the same as praying to God?

We make requests of one another, but we don't ask one another to forgive our sins, grant us the grace of salvation, etc. Nor do we ask the saints or the angels for such things. But we do ask God.

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

What is the justification for this practice?

The communion of saints. It's right there in the creed.

uck51js9zml2yt

Peregrinus wrote: »

When St. Paul prays to the Ephesians, do you suppose that is the same as praying to God?

We make requests of one another, but we don't ask one another to forgive our sins, grant us the grace of salvation, etc. Nor do we ask the saints or the angels for such things. But we do ask God.


The communion of saints. It's right there in the creed.

Are you really saying an angel is a saint?
Paul sets out clearly who the saints are in the opening verses of his letters to them. They are not some elevated beings who having died we pray to. Thats of course if you believe the Bible.

As for equating Shakespearean English to its usage in modern times.
We all know the usage of the term "plead with" is not the same ask asking a created being to do something for you.
Paul deals with the heresy of angel worship in Colossians.

The typical twisting of truth to suit RCC "theology"...I had planned on using another word to describe it.:)

Peregrinus

Angels are part of the church, as are the saints on earth and the saints in heaven. We're all part of the body of Christ, Tat, And praying to the saints in heaven or the angels to ask them to do something for you is not "worship", any more than asking any other member of the church to do something for you is "worship". It would only be (implicit) worship if you were asking them to do something that only God could do.

You may choose to use the word "pray" to refer only to acts of worship. What you cannot, with integrity or credibility, do is say that those who use the word in a wider sense are thereby guilty of idolatry. All your are doing there is idolising* the language preferences of a certain group of evangelical Christians.

[* See what I did there?]

uck51js9zml2yt

Peregrinus wrote: »

Angels are part of the church, as are the saints on earth and the saints in heaven. We're all part of the body of Christ, Tat, And praying to the saints in heaven or the angels to ask them to do something for you is not "worship", any more than asking any other member of the church to do something for you is "worship". It would only be (implicit) worship if you were asking them to do something that only God could do.

You may choose to use the word "pray" to refer only to acts of worship. What you cannot, with integrity or credibility, do is say that those who use the word in a wider sense are thereby guilty of idolatry. All your are doing there is idolising* the language preferences of a certain group of evangelical Christians.

[* See what I did there?]

Since when were angels part of the Redeemed Ones?
To call them part of the Church is error in the extreme.
Where in scripture are we told pray to the dead.
Jesus said we wouldn't even ask Him. Our relationship with the Father would be one where we asked the Father directly.

Peregrinus

Phillip Lazy Blouse wrote: »

Since when were angels part of the Redeemed Ones?

The whole of creation is redeemed by the sacrifice of Christ; angels are created being; angels therefore participate in Christ's redemption just like any other created being.

Phillip Lazy Blouse wrote: »

Where in scripture are we told pray to the dead.

Angels are dead?

ChrisJ84

Peregrinus wrote: »

Angels are part of the church, as are the saints on earth and the saints in heaven.

Where do you get that idea from? As a Roman Catholic, if you want to ground this on the teaching and tradition of the church then that's fine. But the reading of scripture you are proposing seems tortured.

As an Anglican, I file this idea under the 39 Articles, #22

uck51js9zml2yt

Peregrinus wrote: »

The whole of creation is redeemed by the sacrifice of Christ; angels are created being; angels therefore participate in Christ's redemption just like any other created being.


Angels are dead?

Praying to so called saints which you referred to in your post. Sure you could pray to my mother. She's a saint:)

Or to me!

hinault

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

Where do you get that idea from? As a Roman Catholic, if you want to ground this on the teaching and tradition of the church then that's fine. But the reading of scripture you are proposing seems tortured.

As an Anglican, I file this idea under the 39 Articles, #22

Church Triumphant includes all those who are in Heaven with God.
This includes saints, angels and all those souls that lived on Earth and who died and went to Heaven.

It is said that all those who are in Heaven pray for the living here on Earth.

uck51js9zml2yt

hinault wrote: »

Church Triumphant includes all those who are in Heaven with God.
This includes saints, angels and all those souls that lived on Earth and who died and went to Heaven.

It is said that all those who are in Heaven pray for the living here on Earth.

He probably has me in ignore but for the record, the Church is made up of those who have been redeemed by Christ.
Angels are perfect beings created from eternity past and never in need of Redemption having never fallen. Unless of course we're being told Satan can be redeemed.
Angels are not part of the Church which is His Body.

Peregrinus

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

Where do you get that idea from? As a Roman Catholic, if you want to ground this on the teaching and tradition of the church then that's fine. But the reading of scripture you are proposing seems tortured.

As an Anglican, I file this idea under the 39 Articles, #22

Romans 8. Paul tells us that the whole of creation suffers from the Fall, and is redeemed by Christ. Tat has already pointed out that angels are created beings.

And, as an Anglican, you'll doubtless be familiar with the liturgies in the Book of Common Prayer, in which with Angels and Archangels, and with all the company of heaven, we laud and magnify thy glorious Name; evermore praising thee, and saying etc etc.

It's very much part of the Anglican tradition, and entirely consistent with scripture, to accept that angels are included in the Body of Christ.

Peregrinus

Phillip Lazy Blouse wrote: »

Praying to so called saints which you referred to in your post. Sure you could pray to my mother. She's a saint:)

Or to me!

Yes, of course. People don't have to be dead before we can address prayers to them. Whatever gave you that idea?

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Is that "O angel of God, my guardian dear?"

I always thought people were saying O Age Elovgod, my guard John Deere". Thought it was from Lord of the Rings.

uck51js9zml2yt

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yes, of course. People don't have to be dead before we can address prayers to them. Whatever gave you that idea?

So you're saying you would pray to a living person??

Peregrinus

Phillip Lazy Blouse wrote: »

So you're saying you would pray to a living person??

Yes, and so would you. You wouldn't use the word "praying" to describe what you are doing but it would, nevertheless, be praying.

Every time you ask somebody to do something, that is a prayer. It doesn't become theologically troubling unless you are asking them to do something which only God can do, since it then strays into the territory of idolatry.

So if I ask Tat, or the Virgin, for salvation, that's idolatry. But if I ask Tat, or the Virgin, to pray for me or for some intention that I have in mind, that's a prayer (on my part) but it's not idolatrous.

JustAThought

O angel of God
My guardian dear
To whom Gods love
Commits me near
Ever this day be at my side,
To light and gaurd,
To rule and guide.

Amen

Every child I know was taught this and it was said from a very young age by teachers in school as part of the prayers that would start te school day.

Sometimes on dark nights and in spaces of fear or real terror,I find myself still clinging to it. No surprise its a favourite still snd much loved comforting prayer. Its like a childs version of Christ be beside me - an allocated protector and powerful force who walks beside you and is always there and whose sole job is to look after you when you are alone.

Most children would have grown up having have had this on a small wall plaque with either a kneeling profile of an angel or a child praying on it. Which reminds me -I must get one for my godchild.

believer11

Interesting.

There seems to be quite a number of people who pray to angels.

I love the points brought up here about distinguishing between praying and worshiping.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/111298742#Comment_111298742