Guardian Angel Prayer

riffmongous

I just saw this mentioned in an article about 'vote for Ireland's favourite prayer' at the Ploughing Championship. So in 2nd place was one called the guardian angel prayer, but I've never heard of it before, I looked it up and I'm positive I never said that in my life, is it knew or something? I never heard of prayers directly to angels before in the Catholic tradition

Peregrinus

I was taught it as a child. It has been popular since at least the eighteenth century, but it's much older than that. It is traditionally attributed to St. Anselm (11th century) but scholarship suggests it's actually adapted from the works of Reginald of Canterbury (12th century), and was only later attributed to Anselm.

uck51js9zml2yt

Why would you pray to a created being instead of the One who created him and gives the commands?

riffmongous

Peregrinus wrote: »

I was taught it as a child. It has been popular since at least the eighteenth century, but it's much older than that. It is traditionally attributed to St. Anselm (11th century) but scholarship suggests it's actually adapted from the works of Reginald of Canterbury (12th century), and was only later attributed to Anselm.

That's interesting, where were you taught it can you remember?

riffmongous

Phillip Lazy Blouse wrote: »

Why would you pray to a created being instead of the One who created him and gives the commands?

Well I suppose the guardian angel is supposed to be connected to you personally, I also find it strange though

homer911

Interesting article on this question here: https://carm.org/catholic/can-mary-hear-our-prayers

uck51js9zml2yt

homer911 wrote: »

Interesting article on this question here: https://carm.org/catholic/can-mary-hear-our-prayers

Interesting.

But we go back to the words of Jesus.you shall ask the Father in My Name.
Peter and John were told by the angel not to bow down and worship them so why pray to them when they said not to.

Peregrinus

riffmongous wrote: »

That's interesting, where were you taught it can you remember?

At home.

Peregrinus

Phillip Lazy Blouse wrote: »

Why would you pray to a created being instead of the One who created him and gives the commands?

Pretty much all Christian traditions practice prayer to created beings (as well as to God, obviously); they just differ in their practices as to who they pray to and who they don't.

Prayer to a created being usually involves seeking the intercession of that being with God. We may as the Virgin to "pray for us sinners", as Catholics do in the "Hail Mary", or we may ask members of our congregation to pray for some particular intention, as evangelical Christians routinely do. But in both cases the prayer is fundamentally similar; please intercede on my/our behalf. I'm open to correction here, but I'm not aware of any Christian tradition which completely eschews this practice.

Thinkingaboutit

Phillip Lazy Blouse wrote: »

Why would you pray to a created being instead of the One who created him and gives the commands?

Well, maybe you know better than Abraham in Genesis xviii. 2, who on seeing three 'adored them down to the ground,' or Lot when visited by two angels in Sodom ' rose up and went to meet them: and worshiped prostrate to the ground.' Good enough authority for me. Now St Paul in his Letter to the Colossians (Colossae in Phyrgia, that is, southern Anatolia, deserted since 12C) warns against a religion of angels, which unfortunately can seem at times more popular than Christianity, but giving honour (as is given to Our Lady) to angels has impeccable authority.

Angel of God, my (or insert name) guardian dear, to whom God's love commits me here, ever this day/night be at my sight, to light and guard, to rule and guide, Amen.

Fine prayer, I've said every day.

uck51js9zml2yt

Peregrinus wrote: »

Pretty much all Christian traditions practice prayer to created beings (as well as to God, obviously); they just differ in their practices as to who they pray to and who they don't.

Prayer to a created being usually involves seeking the intercession of that being with God. We may as the Virgin to "pray for us sinners", as Catholics do in the "Hail Mary", or we may ask members of our congregation to pray for some particular intention, as evangelical Christians routinely do. But in both cases the prayer is fundamentally similar; please intercede on my/our behalf. I'm open to correction here, but I'm not aware of any Christian tradition which completely eschews this practice.

Where in scripture does it tell us to pray to the dead or ask deceased members of the Church to pray for us?
It's totally different to asking someone (alive) to pray.thats not praying to a created being.
The former is necromancy.

Peregrinus

Phillip Lazy Blouse wrote: »

It's totally different to asking someone (alive) to pray.thats not praying to a created being.

How is that not praying to a created being? Are you saying that living people are not created beings, or that asking for intercession is not a prayer?

homer911

Created beings cannot hear, answer or respond to prayer, only God can hear our prayers. Why would be pray to anyone else? Is God not good enough?

Peregrinus

homer911 wrote: »

Created beings cannot hear, answer or respond to prayer, only God can hear our prayers. Why would be pray to anyone else? Is God not good enough?

So when you ask members of your congregation to pray with you for a particular intention, they do not hear, answer or respond to your request?

homer911

Peregrinus wrote: »

So when you ask members of your congregation to pray with you for a particular intention, they do not hear, answer or respond to your request?

Thankfully we all have the power of speech and hearing. I think the core of the issue here, from a denominational perspective, is the "communion of saints" which the Catholic church uses to justify prayers to the dead. This is viewed by other denominations as a stretch beyond its intended meaning and is unsupported by other bible texts

Peregrinus

Obviously Christianity is an extremely diverse movement, but all the major Protestant traditions, as well as the Catholic, affirm the Communion of Saints, and take the view that one of the things that creates or characterises that communion is shared prayer. I'm comfortable with the fact that some traditions do not practice, or do not encourage, the invocation of the prayers of the Church Triumphant, on the grounds that they do not know the condition of its members and cannot know that their invocation will be heard. But there's nothing in scripture to contradict the practice, and certainly nothing against the belief or hope that the members of the Church Triumphant have at least the same capacities that we do in the Church Militant, and therefore can know of and attend to requests for intercession.

Calvin insists that, as Christians, we should not pray to the saints, but rather with the saints; I think it must follow that the Saints can pray with us. It's true, Calvin does go on to argue that the Saints "yearn for God’s Kingdom with a set and immovable will", and their prayer is therefore for the reign of that kingdom on Earth, and he argues that we should not call upon them them with the lesser concerns that may preoccupy us (like the supply of a new washing machine, a girlfriend or a cure from cancer); we should only pray with the Saints for things that the Saints pray for. But the argument only makes sense if you accept that we can call upon them and that this can operate as a call, in his words, to "abandon their own repose so as to be drawn into earthly cares". So Calvin at least thought that the Saints in the Church Triumphant could hear us and, precisely for that reason, we should not bother them.

Tl;dr: I don't think Christians can have any good reason for opposing one another either on the grounds that they do observe this practice, or on the grounds that they do not.

uck51js9zml2yt

Peregrinus wrote: »

Obviously Christianity is an extremely diverse movement, but all the major Protestant traditions, as well as the Catholic, affirm the Communion of Saints, and take the view that one of the things that creates or characterises that communion is shared prayer. I'm comfortable with the fact that some traditions do not practice, or do not encourage, the invocation of the prayers of the Church Triumphant, on the grounds that they do not know the condition of its members and cannot know that their invocation will be heard. But there's nothing in scripture to contradict the practice, and certainly nothing against the belief or hope that the members of the Church Triumphant have at least the same capacities that we do in the Church Militant, and therefore can know of and attend to requests for intercession.

Calvin insists that, as Christians, we should not pray to the saints, but rather with the saints; I think it must follow that the Saints can pray with us. It's true, Calvin does go on to argue that the Saints "yearn for God’s Kingdom with a set and immovable will", and their prayer is therefore for the reign of that kingdom on Earth, and he argues that we should not call upon them them with the lesser concerns that may preoccupy us (like the supply of a new washing machine, a girlfriend or a cure from cancer); we should only pray with the Saints for things that the Saints pray for. But the argument only makes sense if you accept that we can call upon them and that this can operate as a call, in his words, to "abandon their own repose so as to be drawn into earthly cares". So Calvin at least thought that the Saints in the Church Triumphant could hear us and, precisely for that reason, we should not bother them.

Tl;dr: I don't think Christians can have any good reason for opposing one another either on the grounds that they do observe this practice, or on the grounds that they do not.

Nice fanciful words but one question. Who are the saints? What are they?

Peregrinus

Phillip Lazy Blouse wrote: »

Nice fanciful words but one question. Who are the saints? What are they?

Well, for Calvin the saints of the Church Triumphant, the "departed Saints" as he often calls them, are certainly included; I have already referrred to some of what he has to say about that. And the Westminister Confession is consistent; it talks of "All saints, that are united to Jesus Christ their Head, by His Spirit, and by faith, have fellowship with Him in His grace, sufferings, death, resurrection, and glory"; that certainly embraces the Church Triumphant. As one Reformed commentator puts it, "if we enjoy a living relationship to Christ, then we must also be joined to one another. We are in co-union--or communion--with everyone else who is united to Christ, whether living or dead".

Likewise Luther, who emphasises that "the communion of saints" is a synonym for "the holy Catholic church", which for him embraces both the Church Militant and the Church Triumphant. The Lutheran liturgy is particularly evocative on this point:

"It is truly good, right and salutary that we should at all times and in all places give thanks to you, holy Lord, almighty Father, everlasting, who in the multitude of your saints did surround us with so great a cloud of witnesses that we, rejoicing in their fellowship, may run with patience the race that is set before us and, together with them, may receive the crown of glory that does not fade away. Therefore with angels and archangels and with all the company of heaven we laud and magnify your glorious name, evermore praising you . . ."

And there is scriptural warrant for this view. It's true that Paul uses the term frequently, mostly to refer to particular living saints; this is also how it is used in Acts. But there are a number of references which are not so confined; e.g. 1 Thess 3 refers to the [future] "coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints". And at no stage do these texts suggest that the word can only refer to living saints. The one instance of "saints" in the gospels is in Mt 27:52, where it explicitly refers to "the saints who had fallen asleep" (i.e. died) whose tombs opened with the resurrection, while the Revelation of St John frequently uses the term in a sense which embraces the dead. And in the OT, the Book of Wisdom refers to "the righteous who have died" (4:16) who, at the day of judgment, will be found to be "among the saints".

Thinkingaboutit

homer911 wrote: »

Created beings cannot hear, answer or respond to prayer, only God can hear our prayers. Why would be pray to anyone else? Is God not good enough?

uck51js9zml2yt

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, for Calvin the saints of the Church Triumphant, the "departed Saints" as he often calls them, are certainly included; I have already referrred to some of what he has to say about that. And the Westminister Confession is consistent; it talks of "All saints, that are united to Jesus Christ their Head, by His Spirit, and by faith, have fellowship with Him in His grace, sufferings, death, resurrection, and glory"; that certainly embraces the Church Triumphant. As one Reformed commentator puts it, "if we enjoy a living relationship to Christ, then we must also be joined to one another. We are in co-union--or communion--with everyone else who is united to Christ, whether living or dead".

Likewise Luther, who emphasises that "the communion of saints" is a synonym for "the holy Catholic church", which for him embraces both the Church Militant and the Church Triumphant. The Lutheran liturgy is particularly evocative on this point:

"It is truly good, right and salutary that we should at all times and in all places give thanks to you, holy Lord, almighty Father, everlasting, who in the multitude of your saints did surround us with so great a cloud of witnesses that we, rejoicing in their fellowship, may run with patience the race that is set before us and, together with them, may receive the crown of glory that does not fade away. Therefore with angels and archangels and with all the company of heaven we laud and magnify your glorious name, evermore praising you . . ."

And there is scriptural warrant for this view. It's true that Paul uses the term frequently, mostly to refer to particular living saints; this is also how it is used in Acts. But there are a number of references which are not so confined; e.g. 1 Thess 3 refers to the [future] "coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints". And at no stage do these texts suggest that the word can only refer to living saints. The one instance of "saints" in the gospels is in Mt 27:52, where it explicitly refers to "the saints who had fallen asleep" (i.e. died) whose tombs opened with the resurrection, while the Revelation of St John frequently uses the term in a sense which embraces the dead. And in the OT, the Book of Wisdom refers to "the righteous who have died" (4:16) who, at the day of judgment, will be found to be "among the saints".

Both you and I know that the RCC looks at saints very differently to the biblical definition of them and thinks it can then make someone a saint based on a given criteria thereby setting them above the rest of the dead and bestowing on them certain godly powers.

Peregrinus

Phillip Lazy Blouse wrote: »

Both you and I know that the RCC looks at saints very differently to the biblical definition of them and thinks it can then make someone a saint based on a given criteria thereby setting them above the rest of the dead and bestowing on them certain godly powers.

The question you asked me was not about Catholic views about saints; it was about Protestant views.

uck51js9zml2yt

Peregrinus wrote: »

The question you asked me was not about Catholic views about saints; it was about Protestant views.

I don't think I mentioned either specifically.

Whichever view you choose to speak on, where in scripture do we see the practice of paying to the dead as being legitimate.

Peregrinus

Phillip Lazy Blouse wrote: »

I don't think I mentioned either specifically.

Whichever view you choose to speak on, where in scripture do we see the practice of paying to the dead as being legitimate.

Where do we find anything to suggest that it is not? If your case is that it is legitimate to seek the prayers of some members of the church but not of others, surely you must be able to point to something in scripture to support that case?

hinault

Thinkingaboutit wrote: »

Well, maybe you know better than Abraham in Genesis xviii. 2, who on seeing three 'adored them down to the ground,' or Lot when visited by two angels in Sodom ' rose up and went to meet them: and worshiped prostrate to the ground.' Good enough authority for me.

Now St Paul in his Letter to the Colossians (Colossae in Phyrgia, that is, southern Anatolia, deserted since 12C) warns against a religion of angels, which unfortunately can seem at times more popular than Christianity, but giving honour (as is given to Our Lady) to angels has impeccable authority.

Fine prayer, I've said every day.

Of course titranska knows more than Abraham

But back on topic, that prayer was taught to me when I was a child. Each soul has a guardian angel assigned to it by God.
It's a lovely prayer.

uck51js9zml2yt

hinault wrote: »

Of course titranska knows more than Abraham

But back on topic, that prayer was taught to me when I was a child. Each soul has a guardian angel assigned to it by God.
It's a lovely prayer.

The worship of angels was a heresy Paul addressed in Colossians. If the Apostle thought it wrong..I'm on his side.

Peregrinus

Phillip Lazy Blouse wrote: »

The worship of angels was a heresy Paul addressed in Colossians. If the Apostle thought it wrong..I'm on his side.

Hopefully you also follow St. Paul in distinguishing between prayer and worship.

uck51js9zml2yt

Peregrinus wrote: »

Hopefully you also follow St. Paul in distinguishing between prayer and worship.

You are praying to a created being rather than its creator.
Much to be said in the new testament regarding something that is discouraged.

Peregrinus

We've had this conversation before, Tat. Christians pray to created beings - most notably, one another - all the time. St Paul himself prays to the Corinthians in 2 Cor 5:20:

"we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God".

"Pray" just means "ask". We make spiritual requests of other created beings all the time. Conflating this with the worship of God is a serious, serious error.

ChrisJ84

Peregrinus wrote: »

We've had this conversation before, Tat. Christians pray to created beings - most notably, one another - all the time. St Paul himself prays to the Corinthians in 2 Cor 5:20:

"we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God".

"Pray" just means "ask". We make spiritual requests of other created beings all the time. Conflating this with the worship of God is a serious, serious error.

We pray "with" and "for" one another, but not to one another. Prayer is an act of worship, and collapsing asking and praying to mean exactly the same thing just won't do. If I ask you to pass the butter it's a bit of a stretch to say that I'm praying to you!

In 2 Cor 5:20, Paul is not praying - he's urging the Corinthians to be reconciled to God. The word my ESV uses is "implore", and I think that captures the sense of it quite well.

uck51js9zml2yt

Peregrinus wrote: »

We've had this conversation before, Tat. Christians pray to created beings - most notably, one another - all the time. St Paul himself prays to the Corinthians in 2 Cor 5:20:

"we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God".

"Pray" just means "ask". We make spiritual requests of other created beings all the time. Conflating this with the worship of God is a serious, serious error.

We all know he wasn't praying to them as one would to God.He was telling them to be reconciled. Not something we need to ask God to do.
That's the problem with old English. Word usage has changed. We don't refer to "kine" and "knops" anymore.

hinault

Huge tradition within the Orthodox Church concerning Guardian Angels too.