Principal Officer competition 2019

Tr1ckieD1ckie

Whaleseye wrote: »

Hello,
Many thanks to all the posters for these very useful posts. I am on the panel with OOM in the 40’s. I’ve found it difficult to get much information on progress, timelines etc further than how many are ahead of me currently on the panel. As of last week, I understood that it was at around 33.
I just wondered if anyone had a sense of how long approximately it can take from your place being reached on the panel to actually starting in a new post (understanding of course that it can vary from dept to dept - I’m just wondering in general what to expect). I’m coming from outside the CS so this process is all very new to me.
Many thanks.

Might happen faster than you think- from reaching my place on the OOM, it took PAS 8 days to complete clearance (and I'm an external applicant) and some of that was taking in my chasing up one of my referees. Took another couple of weeks to agree a confirm date with my new Department and receive the contract- and with a notice period to serve in my current role, will be starting in a few weeks time, roughly 7 weeks after my place was reached in the OOM.

hardybuck

It will depend on what Department you're being assigned to and how many addresses you've lived at.

If you're being sent to somewhere like D/Justice you'll have to do a more specific vetting process. I know people waiting 2 months for the vetting process to be completed when going there.

If you've lived multiple places around the country, or abroad, that might impact your timelines too.

I'd say about a month is about right between getting everything ready to go - including vetting, references and agreeing a starting date.

Whaleseye

Tr1ckieD1ckie wrote: »

HI There

Might happen faster than you think- from reaching my place on the OOM, it took PAS 8 days to complete clearance (and I'm an external applicant) and some of that was taking in my chasing up one of my referees. Took another couple of weeks to agree a confirm date with my new Department and receive the contract- and with a notice period to serve in my current role, will be starting in a few weeks time, roughly 7 weeks after my place was reached in the OOM.

Ah that’s interesting - not too long then overall. Thanks for that, much appreciated.
Many congrats on your appointment. Hope it goes really well.
It will be strange for us starting a new job in these times. Presume it’s work from home for now at least? Is there a good induction process do you know? Possibly depends on the dept..?

Thanks again.

Whaleseye

hardybuck wrote: »

It will depend on what Department you're being assigned to and how many addresses you've lived at.

If you're being sent to somewhere like D/Justice you'll have to do a more specific vetting process. I know people waiting 2 months for the vetting process to be completed when going there.

If you've lived multiple places around the country, or abroad, that might impact your timelines too.

I'd say about a month is about right between getting everything ready to go - including vetting, references and agreeing a starting date.

Ah good to know. I’ve had vetting done before for another role (relatively recently), so that may or may not help. We’ll see!
Many thanks.

Tr1ckieD1ckie

hardybuck wrote: »

It will depend on what Department you're being assigned to and how many addresses you've lived at.

If you're being sent to somewhere like D/Justice you'll have to do a more specific vetting process. I know people waiting 2 months for the vetting process to be completed when going there.

If you've lived multiple places around the country, or abroad, that might impact your timelines too.

I'd say about a month is about right between getting everything ready to go - including vetting, references and agreeing a starting date.

Agreed, I've lived in about 6 addresses some in Ireland and overseas and the Garda Clearance process was still super quick- completed in 2/3 days though as you note the process would be more intense and could take a lot longer for certain security sensitive roles like Justice or AGS. Because my period overseas was over a decade ago PAS didn't require a police cert from the other country so that could have slowed things down if it was more recent

Tr1ckieD1ckie

Whaleseye wrote: »

Ah good to know. I’ve had vetting done before for another role (relatively recently), so that may or may not help. We’ll see!
Many thanks.

So had I, but I believe each potential organisation is required to complete a separate vetting process with AGS

Tr1ckieD1ckie

Whaleseye wrote: »

Ah that’s interesting - not too long then overall. Thanks for that, much appreciated.
Many congrats on your appointment. Hope it goes really well.
It will be strange for us starting a new job in these times. Presume it’s work from home for now at least? Is there a good induction process do you know? Possibly depends on the dept..?

Thanks again.

Thanks for the good wishes, looking forward to it but also a little apprehensive in the circumstances. I've been given to understand primarily working remotely, which brings its own challenges!

Some interesting advice here about what to expect https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058106990

Suggests there might not be too much by way of structured induction given the seniority of the role.

Hope you're not waiting too long either
Best
TD

Whaleseye

Tr1ckieD1ckie wrote: »

Thanks for the good wishes, looking forward to it but also a little apprehensive in the circumstances. I've been given to understand primarily working remotely, which brings its own challenges!

Some interesting advice here about what to expect

Suggests there might not be too much by way of structured induction given the seniority of the role.

Hope you're not waiting too long either
Best
TD

Most excellent! Many thanks

bluegreenred

Great to see some on here getting placed - congratulations! And left field question for those on the inside, is PO the best chance for an external candidate to get into the civil service tent? What chance getting promoted elsewhere and targeting assistant secretary in the future? I assume it’s very difficult to break in at that level but I could be wrong. Very hypothetical I know.

Tr1ckieD1ckie

bluegreenred wrote: »

Great to see some on here getting placed - congratulations! And left field question for those on the inside, is PO the best chance for an external candidate to get into the civil service tent? What chance getting promoted elsewhere and targeting assistant secretary in the future? I assume it’s very difficult to break in at that level but I could be wrong. Very hypothetical I know.

Not a civil servant (yet!) so not really qualified to comment. However, in case it helps the Top Level Appointments Commission handle recruitment at A/Sec and Sec Gen (possibly other executive grades also, I'm not sure)

They don't appear to have published a report for a few years (least not on PER's website) but it contains some interesting data about the source of applicants to TLAC and the relative success of internal/external candidates. If I'm reading the stats right for 2017 5.5% of the successful candidates are external.


https://assets.gov.ie/5728/170119155115-624da66a3b9043e28efea61b7f267c9a.pdf

ps (Anyone any sense of an equivalent stat for this open PO competition??)

bluegreenred

Thanks very much. Answers the question perfectly. Pretty grim reading if trying to get in from the outside. Just 8% even if you are public but not civil service. And yeah 5.5% if private sector. Though 2017 appears to be low on both counts relative to the average of previous years.

In a way I’m a good example. Lost out in the final stage on one score in the presentation. My mistake was trying to be more tactful than a blow in with incomplete information making sweeping recommendations on a massive decision in a toxic environment. Think I took the role play too seriously!!! If I was inside the tent, I would say I’d have been warned against that.

bluegreenred

Maybe my last post was too pessimistic. A PO told me that few in the service get the open competition first time and that my mistake is pretty common. Though civil servants also have internal competitions. Does this ring true or was she just trying to make me feel better �� hopefully another PO competition in March!

Whaleseye

Anyone any sense of how things are moving this month? Seems to have been a lot slower movement in August (probably to be expected given holiday time). Hoping September might move quicker.. Anyone in the 30’s been called yet?

Grey AP

Up to 35 now, according to PAS, so that's maybe six or seven for the month. A few here just about to be contacted, I'd say.

Whaleseye

Grey AP wrote: »

Up to 35 now, according to PAS, so that's maybe six or seven for the month. A few here just about to be contacted, I'd say.

Ah interesting, thanks for that update. Hopefully will pick up a bit now over coming weeks.

AndrewJRenko

bluegreenred wrote: »

Maybe my last post was too pessimistic. A PO told me that few in the service get the open competition first time and that my mistake is pretty common. Though civil servants also have internal competitions. Does this ring true or was she just trying to make me feel better �� hopefully another PO competition in March!

There is certainly an element of 'practice makes perfect' in relation to the process for competitions, both the tests and perhaps more especially, the interviews. Interview practice is important, and coaching from an expert can be a big help too.

bluegreenred

Thanks AJR. The numbers are pretty much where months ago Grey AP said they would be. Fair play and to your “petit oiseau”! Looks like the panel will indeed be exhausted by around year end.

poundhound

Out of curiosity, has anyone here tried to skip a grade in applying for this competition i.e. HEO to PO?

Grey AP

bluegreenred wrote: »

Thanks AJR. The numbers are pretty much where months ago Grey AP said they would be. Fair play and to your “petit oiseau”! Looks like the panel will indeed be exhausted by around year end.

Cheers, BGR. Unfortunately, I have no little bird for the lottery numbers....

If that is the case (and it is looking likely as POs decide to retire in increasing numbers, having had that taste of freedom), then I think PAS would probably run a new PO comp fairly quickly. The retirements aren't going to stop and, in my dept and others, there is a shortage at that level already so demand will continue.

The only insect in the unguent is if the Govt decides to have a recruitment/promotion freeze, as a budgetary measure. However, that would be a pretty pointless gesture at PO level, given a panel of 65 POs would only cost the Exchequer around six or seven million to employ in full year costs, but non-replacement would involve significant management risk. (Psst - don't tell anyone, but if they were minded to do something, a pay freeze or cut would bring a far bigger return, in the realm of a few hundred million across the public service. DPER prefers big ticket savings.)

bluegreenred

Great news for all those left on the panel and for me waiting for the next competition! As you say, the budget could be an issue. Could even delay things until final choices are made. But I suspect there is too much riding on this government being a success for at least two of the parties involved for them to risk mismanagement in devising and implementing policies.

meteoris

Just got a reply with an update from clearance at publicjobs dot ie:

"There are currently 5 candidates ahead of you on the PO2019 panel."

As I am placed at 42, number 37 should be next.

Grey AP

poundhound wrote: »

Out of curiosity, has anyone here tried to skip a grade in applying for this competition i.e. HEO to PO?

I've only heard of one example of an HEO getting on a PO panel since things opened up - open comps and being able to apply for jobs more than one grade above you. There always seems to be a few AOs chancing their arms, but lack of experience, unless you also have an extensive non-CS CV, could be an issue.

hardybuck

Grey AP wrote: »

I've only heard of one example of an HEO getting on a PO panel since things opened up - open comps and being able to apply for jobs more than one grade above you. There always seems to be a few AOs chancing their arms, but lack of experience, unless you also have an extensive non-CS CV, could be an issue.

I heard of an AO in the recent past who made the jump, no idea how they got on, but extremely rare as you've mentioned.

I wouldn't recommend an AO or HEO chancing their arm for an open competition, the step up would be very tough to deal with, even if you have extensive career experience in the private sector.

Chancing your arm for PO internal competition would be frowned upon in my opinion, although a jump from CO to HEO does happen fairly regularly.

Conovski

hardybuck wrote: »

I heard of an AO in the recent past who made the jump, no idea how they got on, but extremely rare as you've mentioned.

I wouldn't recommend an AO or HEO chancing their arm for an open competition, the step up would be very tough to deal with, even if you have extensive career experience in the private sector.
Chancing your arm for PO internal competition would be frowned upon in my opinion, although a jump from CO to HEO does happen fairly regularly.

I know of at least two EOs who made the jump to AP on internal competitions (one coming very high on the panel in a large dept), but not from HEO to PO.

I think the whiplash for new POs can be severe, from what i hear

Conovski

meteoris wrote: »

Just got a reply with an update from clearance at publicjobs dot ie:

"There are currently 5 candidates ahead of you on the PO2019 panel."

As I am placed at 42, number 37 should be next.

Thanks Meteoris. This is really great to know

Whaleseye

Curious about the clearance process, in particular in relation to references. Would anyone know if they look for just one, or more? And is it done by phone or email, or do they ask them to complete and return a form? Would be handy to have them (referees) lined up.. thanks

Tr1ckieD1ckie

PAS advised me they needed a reference from all my managers in the past three years. In my case that was three different managers.
Form was sent by email afaik.

Whaleseye

Tr1ckieD1ckie wrote: »

PAS advised me they needed a reference from all my managers in the past three years. In my case that was three different managers.
Form was sent by email afaik.

Good to know. Many thanks.

Tr1ckieD1ckie

Conovski wrote: »

I know of at least two EOs who made the jump to AP on internal competitions (one coming very high on the panel in a large dept), but not from HEO to PO.

I think the whiplash for new POs can be severe, from what i hear

Interesting observation Conovski... and one I've heard some serving POs express in different ways also. General consensus is that the transition to PO can be challenging.
Was thinking it might be helpful to pull together an informal network of recently commenced / about to commence POs to support each other, share our experiences and to act as a sounding board etc.

If anyone else thinks a network like this might be something they would find helpful, feel free to dm me.

Conovski

Tr1ckieD1ckie wrote: »

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Interesting observation Conovski... and one I've heard some serving POs express in different ways also. General consensus is that the transition to PO can be challenging.
Was thinking it might be helpful to pull together an informal network of recently commenced / about to commence POs to support each other, share our experiences and to act as a sounding board etc.

If anyone else thinks a network like this might be something they would find helpful, feel free to dm me.

Thanks Tr1ckie D1ckie, that's a very good idea. DM on its way