how to futureproof a house when doing new build

catharsis

Hi all on boards

We are doing a house rebuild including MHRV, A2W HP etc. We also already have an Electric Vehicle.

I am considering how to specify the electrics of the works in particular.

1. I am vaguely considering whether considering all the expense of the build, whether it is worth trying to get a 3-phase connection (which would be great for EV charging speed, and might be of benefit for a future FIT?)

2. I am presuming that I would be installing both PV and battery storage in the near future once the house build is completed. Is there anything I would need to specify in terms of the electrical installation of the new build to ensure I am ready to connect both the PV and the storage in the future.

Anything else I should be sure to install considering that everything will be brand-new? - what is the item 'most missed' by people who wish they had done it when building or buying?

Thanks in advance for any advice

Ian OB

Is 3-phase permitted for residential building?

unkel

catharsis wrote: »

whether it is worth trying to get a 3-phase connection

Nobody can answer that, you need to get a quote from ESB networks. The prices for a domestic upgrade to 3-phase are public (a bit under two grand last time I looked?), but that doesn't include any new physical connection they have to make to your house, which can be very expensive.

rolion

catharsis wrote: »

Anything else I should be sure to install considering that everything will be brand-new? - what is the item 'most missed' by people who wish they had done it when building or buying?

For me,major "trouble" is building a solution today with yesterday products but with tomorrow's prices.

Panels and inverters installed couple of years ago, today's prices are at a much lower price while have an increased performance.

You can't really future proof a house based on this concept,you get the best of the today in relation to products,technology,skills & know-how,prices and warranty.You can run the piping,cabling then hoping for the best that fits your budget today,lowering your TCO,increasing RoI (with fast payment back and lower monthly bills for maintenance).

Enjoy the project.

KCross

catharsis wrote: »

We are doing a house rebuild including MHRV, A2W HP etc. We also already have an Electric Vehicle.

I am considering how to specify the electrics of the works in particular.

1. I am vaguely considering whether considering all the expense of the build, whether it is worth trying to get a 3-phase connection (which would be great for EV charging speed, and might be of benefit for a future FIT?)

Charging speed at home isnt really an issue. The car is there overnight and will fully charge while you sleep wthout issue. Having it complete its charge a few hours earlier doesnt really give you any reasonable benefit considering the costs of installing 3ph.

Also bear in mind that most EV's dont support 3ph charging... at the moment anyway.


I'd assume you are already upgrading to the enhanced 1ph connection... i.e. 16kVA?
If you wanted to you could upgrade further to 20kVA but personally I dont think it would be worth it.

catharsis wrote: »

2. I am presuming that I would be installing both PV and battery storage in the near future once the house build is completed. Is there anything I would need to specify in terms of the electrical installation of the new build to ensure I am ready to connect both the PV and the storage in the future.

I dont think you should presume that you will be installing a battery. Its far from certain how the tech will evolve and how Feed In Tarrifs will work etc.

Extra ducting is about all you can do so that its easier to pull cables later. Putting in cables now without knowing what exactly it is you are installing is somewhat pointless as no doubt there will be some extra cable required (sensors etc) that you didnt think of or know about and you still have to go to the effort of drilling etc later.... ducting, thats what you need.

For things like batteries, EV charge points and SolarPV the cables run between those things and the consumer unit and meter box so have extra ducts between those if you want to make future installs easier.

KCross

Ian OB wrote: »

Is 3-phase permitted for residential building?

Yes, just that it generally costs a fortune to get.

GooglePlus

Throw a few lasers up.

Coltrane

catharsis wrote: »

Hi all on boards

We are doing a house rebuild including MHRV, A2W HP etc. We also already have an Electric Vehicle.

I am considering how to specify the electrics of the works in particular.

1. I am vaguely considering whether considering all the expense of the build, whether it is worth trying to get a 3-phase connection (which would be great for EV charging speed, and might be of benefit for a future FIT?)

2. I am presuming that I would be installing both PV and battery storage in the near future once the house build is completed. Is there anything I would need to specify in terms of the electrical installation of the new build to ensure I am ready to connect both the PV and the storage in the future.

Anything else I should be sure to install considering that everything will be brand-new? - what is the item 'most missed' by people who wish they had done it when building or buying?

Thanks in advance for any advice

I'd make these predictions and suggestions:


1. Carbon taxes will increase so that investing in your HP, insulation and airtightness, in particular, will tend to bring better - but still quite low - "returns on investment" if environmental damage is disregarded. If it's a major job you should even consider building to a passivhaus-type standard. I'm using a certified PH architect at the moment and could recommend if you'd like to PM me.



2. You mention "rebuilding". I've always found it - in general - cheaper to demolish and newbuild from scratch than to retrofit. And I'm learning that all over again on an ongoing retrofit...


3. Water-costs are highly likely to rise despite voter-resistance. Consider what you can do here.


4. Personally, I'm no fan of batteries. The unit costs of the energy they would deliver to your house are still too high. And, to me, the whole point of PV is to generate clean power: Whether I self-consume or export for free is for me not the primary consideration.


5. Consider a Zappi or other charger for your EV that will work intelligently with your PV. They are pricey, for now, but lovely to use. I haven't charged my EV from the grid since March....


6. Be a little careful about planning permission for your PV, and the sense doing the rounds that the Councils won't enforce because of what happened in Limerick. That's in my opinion not the legal position; although politically it's absolutely becoming more difficult to enforce against PV. So, don't push the envelope too hard particularly if the panels would be visible and you have difficult neighbours!

catharsis

KCross wrote: »

Charging speed at home isnt really an issue. The car is there overnight and will fully charge while you sleep wthout issue. Having it complete its charge a few hours earlier doesnt really give you any reasonable benefit considering the costs of installing 3ph.

Also bear in mind that most EV's dont support 3ph charging... at the moment anyway.


I'd assume you are already upgrading to the enhanced 1ph connection... i.e. 16kVA?
If you wanted to you could upgrade further to 20kVA but personally I dont think it would be worth it.



I dont think you should presume that you will be installing a battery. Its far from certain how the tech will evolve and how Feed In Tarrifs will work etc.

Extra ducting is about all you can do so that its easier to pull cables later. Putting in cables now without knowing what exactly it is you are installing is somewhat pointless as no doubt there will be some extra cable required (sensors etc) that you didnt think of or know about and you still have to go to the effort of drilling etc later.... ducting, thats what you need.

For things like batteries, EV charge points and SolarPV the cables run between those things and the consumer unit and meter box so have extra ducts between those if you want to make future installs easier.

Many thanks for the detailed feedback and suggestions, - on the charging overnight issue you are of course correct, but we are pretty likely to have 2 high-spec EV's in the near future both capable of 11, 16 or possibly even 22KW charging. Given the likelihood of having two, and therefore the possibility of one not being full every morning I am willing to pay a little premium to have the ability to 'fast charge' the car if we need to... not necessary, but if it was to be only EUR2K for example, then amortised over 20 years or so it might be worth having that ability.


certainly upgrading to the 16KVa 1PH seems like it is something we should definitely do and something I had not considered - is there anything in particular I should tell my architect to do to make sure that is done/specified in the tender pack?


advice on Ducting noted, we will look at what to do.

I am guessing ducting to roof (for solar), to a likely location for any storage (for battery), to the 'heat pump system (for eddi-type functionality), and to the front of the house (for EVSE/Zappi) - anything else?

Coltrane wrote: »

I'd make these predictions and suggestions:
1. Carbon taxes will increase so .... you should even consider building to a passivhaus-type standard.

We are effectively 'deep-retrofitting' an existing house, to a high standard, expecting A2 without requiring solar, A1 with solar and battery

Coltrane wrote: »

2. You mention "rebuilding". I've always found it - in general - cheaper to demolish and newbuild from scratch than to retrofit. And I'm learning that all over again on an ongoing retrofit...

noted, but in my situation not an option....

Coltrane wrote: »

3. Water-costs are highly likely to rise despite voter-resistance. Consider what you can do here.

rainwater harvesting for toilets

Coltrane wrote: »

4. Personally, I'm no fan of batteries. The unit costs of the energy they would deliver to your house are still too high. And, to me, the whole point of PV is to generate clean power: Whether I self-consume or export for free is for me not the primary consideration.

I'm hoping to get a battery system which might include a V2H system allowing use of a car, and/or allows for storage of the solar generated during the day to charge a car overnight - basically my goal would be to never pay for day-rate electricity again :-)

Coltrane wrote: »

5. Consider a Zappi or other charger for your EV that will work intelligently with your PV. They are pricey, for now, but lovely to use. I haven't charged my EV from the grid since March....

absolutely, see above (also Zappi supports load sharing across 2 EVSEs if you have 2 zappis - but I am looking at other higher-speed-capable options which offer Zappi-like features (BMW appear to offer something like this and Audi are promising the same - Tesla's charger does load sharing but cannot do any PV integration)

Coltrane wrote: »

6. Be a little careful about planning permission for your PV, and the sense doing the rounds that the Councils won't enforce because of what happened in Limerick. That's in my opinion not the legal position; although politically it's absolutely becoming more difficult to enforce against PV. So, don't push the envelope too hard particularly if the panels would be visible and you have difficult neighbours!

I haven't looked into the issue too much as yet, but my guess is I will get the PV in about 18 months, as energy density rises I expect this to continually become less of a concern.

My own opinion is that making the entire south facing 'aspect' of my house roof
a single color whether with actual solar panels or a fake cosmetic spacer to resemble panels is actually the best aesthetic option - we will see what the planners allow though.

Thanks to all responders for the great feedback.

Mooooo

The cost of the 3 phase will depend on your distance from the line, if it is close it may be similar to a single phase upgrade. Get quotes for both from esb networks. 2.5k here to get 3 phase but the line was only maybe 75 to 100 metres away. Upgrading the single phase would have been 1800 i think at the time. Have heard of lads looking for it for farms and getting quotes of 40k as well due to distance

thos

If I were considering future proofing, I would be looking at what's happening in the V2G/V2H space, and trying to consider that.

I built my house 5yrs ago, and while we considered Solar PV at the time, we didn't quite consider batteries or EV charging.

The challenges I've faced since then has mostly been about getting back and forth to the fuse board / consumer unit, so I definitely wish I'd made this easier. Going poking holes back into an airtight membrane is messy. You might try to consider location of the fuse board (a master/slave consumer unit) and have it situated somewhere in a spacious accessible location ie; attached garage or proper utility/machine room where batteries, inverters, MHRV, water tank, comms etc can all be located.

I resisted the temptation to pipe Cat5 all around the house on the assumption of some magic future home automation solution, and don't regret it really. I've put some good home automation solutions to work and it's been wireless/wifi/rf and worked well.

The bit I'd really like in my house is more control and visibility of power usage, and by this I mean appliance (or at least circuit) based monitoring, and ideally more advanced timers or API integrations. I think this comes down to appliance choice, but I'd like better control in the future where excess solar (or a cheaper dynamic smart tariff) means I can start the dishwaser/washing machine/tumber dryer/heat pump remotely or automatically based on that. Apart from appliance choice, I think some extra thought into the consumer unit (smart RCBs?) layout.

KCross

catharsis wrote: »

on the charging overnight issue you are of course correct, but we are pretty likely to have 2 high-spec EV's in the near future both capable of 11, 16 or possibly even 22KW charging. Given the likelihood of having two, and therefore the possibility of one not being full every morning..

Is that likely though?

Two EV's charging at 7.2kW each for 9hrs of night rate is about 120kWh's to the battery. Thats 700km's+ per day that you can pump into your cars. Is that a regular occurrence for you?

And if there is a rare occasion where you need more for the following day then just start the charge session a few hours earlier.

catharsis wrote: »

I am willing to pay a little premium to have the ability to 'fast charge' the car if we need to... not necessary, but if it was to be only EUR2K for example, then amortised over 20 years or so it might be worth having that ability.

Thats fair enough, If it were only €2k then it would be worth it alright. You'll only find that out by getting ESB out to take a look and send you a formal quote.

Are you in a rural area? If you look 360° around the house can you see the 3ph line? If it is not nearby and they have to pole the line to your house you are looking at many thousands for it as you have to pay the entire cost of that work.

catharsis wrote: »

certainly upgrading to the 16KVa 1PH seems like it is something we should definitely do and something I had not considered - is there anything in particular I should tell my architect to do to make sure that is done/specified in the tender pack?

If he's worth his salt and he knows you are installing a heat pump he should be asking for it by default but just double check that he has specified that there is a heat pump and hence the "Enhanced Connection" is required.

From an electrical standpoint this means putting in higher grade "tails" (25mm²) and only when ESB see that cable will they then give you the higher rated fuse (80A vs 60A) in your meter box.

You can request 100A fuse but that will be more money again.

KCross

thos wrote: »

If I were considering future proofing, I would be looking at what's happening in the V2G/V2H space, and trying to consider that.

Not sure how you could future proof for it as the tech is at the very early stages. You'd be second guessing whats required and more than likely geting it wrong.

thos wrote: »

The challenges I've faced since then has mostly been about getting back and forth to the fuse board / consumer unit, so I definitely wish I'd made this easier. Going poking holes back into an airtight membrane is messy. You might try to consider location of the fuse board (a master/slave consumer unit) and have it situated somewhere in a spacious accessible location ie; attached garage or proper utility/machine room where batteries, inverters, MHRV, water tank, comms etc can all be located.

Thats my advice too. Ducting, plenty of.

The "plant room" is also a good idea. It makes it easier to fit things later just make the room big enough to take extra stuff and dont squash everything into some pokey corner.

Likewise with the MVHR system, dont put the unit in the attic where you have to crawl on your knees to get to it. You will need to regularly clean/replace the filters on that so find an accessible space for it where it can be easily serviced/maintained.

thos wrote: »

I resisted the temptation to pipe Cat5 all around the house on the assumption of some magic future home automation solution, and don't regret it really. I've put some good home automation solutions to work and it's been wireless/wifi/rf and worked well.

I'd disagree with you on that one. I prefer cables wherever possible. Less interference, lower latency and more reliable connection with cables. Each device having a dedicated cable back to your modem will work better than many devices sharing Wifi spectrum.

Its also easier if/when you get a new modem that you dont have to connect each device to the new Wifi. They will just work when you swap the modem.

Cat5 is too old now though.... Cat6 minimum. I put that in everywhere nearly a decade ago now and have fibre-to-the-home so im glad i did.

thos

Two EV's charging at 7.2kW each for 9hrs of night rate is about 120kWh's to the battery. Thats 700km's+ per day that you can pump into your cars. Is that a regular occurrence for you?

I'd see this less about pure throughput at a time, and just more about the habit/convenience of plugging the car(s) in each night and getting it's top up, as opposed to trying to remember who's turn it is to plug their car in that night.

KCross wrote: »

I'd disagree with you on that one. I prefer cables wherever possible. Less interference, lower latency and more reliable connection with cables. Each device having a dedicated cable back to your modem will work better than many devices sharing Wifi spectrum.

Its also easier if/when you get a new modem that you dont have to connect each device to the new Wifi. They will just work when you swap the modem.

Cat5 is too old now though.... Cat6 minimum. I put that in everywhere nearly a decade ago now and have fibre-to-the-home so im glad i did.

I should have been clearer - I have Cat6 (I'm old school so still generally refer to it as cat5) in most areas, but in comparison to running it into every socket/switch/window frame/doorway to support a future KNX-type solution for automation is something I avoided.
I have TV's and AV stuff hard wired for reasons you state, and would recommend definitely.
For same reasons, I did push more cabling for POE Wifi Access Points and CCTV cams, but I still saw those as current requirements, and not second guessing future proofing.

KCross

thos wrote: »

I'd see this less about pure throughput at a time, and just more about the habit/convenience of plugging the car(s) in each night and getting it's top up, as opposed to trying to remember who's turn it is to plug their car in that night.

Both cars would charge at the same time every night. It would never work if you had to "have a meeting" every night to decide who plugs in.

There is no issue with both charging together, you just need to get the enhanced supply and put in two charge points.

catharsis

Mooooo wrote: »

The cost of the 3 phase will depend on your distance from the line, if it is close it may be similar to a single phase upgrade. Get quotes for both from esb networks. 2.5k here to get 3 phase but the line was only maybe 75 to 100 metres away. Upgrading the single phase would have been 1800 i think at the time. Have heard of lads looking for it for farms and getting quotes of 40k as well due to distance

I'm in South Dublin, nearest lamppost is only 10M away or so, and the various domestic supplies around here come from that. There is a substation or similar at end of road maybe 200-300m away at the most.

thos wrote: »

If I were considering future proofing, I would be looking at what's happening in the V2G/V2H space, and trying to consider that.

[snip]
The challenges I've faced since then has mostly been about getting back and forth to the fuse board / consumer unit, so I definitely wish I'd made this easier. Going poking holes back into an airtight membrane is messy. You might try to consider location of the fuse board (a master/slave consumer unit) and have it situated somewhere in a spacious accessible location.

That's an excellent point, is there any way to have a set of connection points or whatever is required to connect Solar, EVSE , possible battery storage etc OUTSIDE the house without having to come through the 'envelope at all? - like a second fuseboard outside or something?

KCross wrote: »

Thats fair enough, If it were only €2k then it would be worth it alright. You'll only find that out by getting ESB out to take a look and send you a formal quote.

Are you in a rural area? If you look 360° around the house can you see the 3ph line? If it is not nearby and they have to pole the line to your house you are looking at many thousands for it as you have to pay the entire cost of that work.

I am very much not in a rural area as I mentioned above.
Any idea how to tell the difference between 3PH and 1Phase from a simple visual inspection? - if we have streetlighting is there any chance that means 3phase is outside the door?

KCross wrote: »

If he's worth his salt and he knows you are installing a heat pump he should be asking for it by default but just double check that he has specified that there is a heat pump and hence the "Enhanced Connection" is required.

From an electrical standpoint this means putting in higher grade "tails" (25mm²) and only when ESB see that cable will they then give you the higher rated fuse (80A vs 60A) in your meter box.


You can request 100A fuse but that will be more money again.

Many thanks for this, I will ensure the architect and contractor are instaucted to do this.

Do you happen to know whether any of the 80A or 100A extra costs are recurring or all they all one-off costs?

KCross

catharsis wrote: »

I am very much not in a rural area as I mentioned above.
Any idea how to tell the difference between 3PH and 1Phase from a simple visual inspection? - if we have streetlighting is there any chance that means 3phase is outside the door?

Since you are not rural its harder to tell how far away it is as it could be underground.

3ph, if visible on a pole, will have 3 wires on it.

Just give them a call and ask for a quote is the only option really.

catharsis wrote: »

Many thanks for this, I will ensure the architect and contractor are instaucted to do this.

Its good to have it in your tender docs so that the sub contracted electrician quotes properly for it and has the right tails etc in his quote to the builder and you dont get stung for extra money later.

Ultimately you will be the one filling in the ESB connection form and specifying the connection, not the builder.

Its explained here....
https://www.esbnetworks.ie/new-connections/single-house

See section 4 of the NC2 form. You will tick 16kVA or 3ph or whatever it is you want and then they send you a quote for that.

catharsis wrote: »

Do you happen to know whether any of the 80A or 100A extra costs are recurring or all they all one-off costs?

The 80A connection is a once off cost. No extras later.
Not sure about the 100A but I think that would be just a one off cost also.

air

20kVA is as much as you will get with a single phase connection to the best of my knowledge.
Also, currently anything over 29kVA attracts significant additional recurring costs.

The PSO levy is charged per kVA per month at 30kVA and above whereas it is a flat charge for anything up to and including 29kVA, on commercial supplies at least.

The monthly PSO cost is about €11 for 29kVA but over €30 for 30kVA.

If you wanted to future proof you could for example apply for a 3 phase 45kVA supply initially and then get it reduced soon after connection. It would be there for you if you ever wanted it down the road then. This would likely be cheaper in capital terms but will cost about €1k extra over and above a 29kVA connection up front.
There is also a small risk that they might charge you for the downgrade.

This is all just in my experience (commercial), your experience may vary.
Every area office operates with a degree of autonomy.

antoinolachtnai

Have a look at your electricity bill. If it is DG1 then you are served by the three-phase urban network. This means a three phase upgrade could be more straightforward.

If it is DG2 this means you are served by the single-phase urban network. This means that the work involved will probably be more complex and involve longer runs.

Neither will tell you anything definitive about cost. The best thing at this stage is to just ask for a quote.

unkel

That's interesting. Just checked mine and it is DG1 (Lucan - house almost 20 years old)

KCross

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Have a look at your electricity bill. If it is DG1 then you are served by the three-phase urban network. This means a three phase upgrade could be more straightforward.

If it is DG2 this means you are served by the single-phase urban network. This means that the work involved will probably be more complex and involve longer runs.

Neither will tell you anything definitive about cost. The best thing at this stage is to just ask for a quote.

DG1 just means urban domestic. DG2 means rural domestic. Op says he is urban so DG1 is to be expected.

antoinolachtnai

It depends what you mean by urban I suppose. But ESB are crystal clear on what they mean by 'urban'.

https://www.esbnetworks.ie/docs/default-source/publications/rules-for-application-of-duos-tariff-group.pdf?sfvrsn=a44b33f0_4

"4.1.1 Urban Domestic Connections
Urban domestic connections are defined as domestic connections that are fed from three-phase overhead or underground LV network. This rule ignores the service which may be single or three phase.
4.1.2 Rural Domestic Connections
Rural domestic connections are defined as domestic connections that are fed from single phase overhead network."

unkel

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Urban domestic connections are defined as domestic connections that are fed from three-phase overhead or underground LV network.

LOL, so completely meaningless then. Everything built in the greater Dublin area has had underground electric connections for decades. Overhead electric connections are for third world countries. I guess they still use them in Ireland because of low population densities in some areas? No wonder that with every storm thousands of homes are cut off :rolleyes:

antoinolachtnai

unkel wrote: »

LOL, so completely meaningless then. Everything built in the greater Dublin area has had underground electric connections for decades. Overhead electric connections are for third world countries. I guess they still use them in Ireland because of low population densities in some areas? No wonder that with every storm thousands of homes are cut off :rolleyes:

That may well be but I don’t see how the distinction is meaningless. I don’t see how the observation above helps the OP much.

unkel

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

That may well be but I don’t see how the distinction is meaningless. I don’t see how the observation above helps the OP much.

Well as KCross observed, DG1 just means urban domestic. It has no relation whatsoever with being 3 phase enabled or not. Your quote backed this up.

As I said earlier in this thread, and in fairness, you did too, the only way to find out how much it is to get 3 phase is to get a quote from the ESB

antoinolachtnai

unkel wrote: »

Well as KCross observed, DG1 just means urban domestic. It has no relation whatsoever with being 3 phase enabled or not. Your quote backed this up.

As I said earlier in this thread, and in fairness, you did too, the only way to find out how much it is to get 3 phase is to get a quote from the ESB

Sure it does. DG1 means it is connected to the three-phase network. DG2 is the single phase network. What’s not backed up about it?

FrankPoll.

Seems clear enough if the definition holds true across the country

Esbn would have to have a simple way of defining urban/ rural

air

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Sure it does. DG1 means it is connected to the three-phase network. DG2 is the single phase network. What’s not backed up about it?

Sorry, you are completely incorrect in your assertions.

DG stands for Distribution Group. It just groups users with similar usage profiles.

From page 6 of this PDF
The DG (distribution group) helps us to understand your expected energy consumption.

Also have a look at page 10 of this link on the CRU website and it explains:

The electricity market is comprised of four different market segments covering different DUoS groups (distribution use of system groups or DGs):
domestic, small-sized business, medium-sized business and large energy users (LEUs).

I have a bill in front of me that includes connections that are in locations ranging from city centres to the furthest reaches of the single phase rural network.
All of these are in the same distribution group, because all of them have the same usage profile.

For domestic properties, it indicates rural user profile or urban user profile, that is all.

antoinolachtnai

air wrote: »

Sorry, you are completely incorrect in your assertions.

DG stands for Distribution Group. It just groups users with similar usage profiles.

From page 6 of this PDF
The DG (distribution group) helps us to understand your expected energy consumption.

Also have a look at page 10 of this link on the CRU website and it explains:

The electricity market is comprised of four different market segments covering different DUoS groups (distribution use of system groups or DGs):
domestic, small-sized business, medium-sized business and large energy users (LEUs).

I have a bill in front of me that includes connections that are in locations ranging from city centres to the furthest reaches of the single phase rural network.
All of these are in the same distribution group, because all of them have the same usage profile.

For domestic properties, it indicates rural user profile or urban user profile, that is all.

Sone of these bills you are looking at are commercial connections?

I think a document entitled ‘Rules for Application of DUoS Tariff Group’ is more likely to be definitive than those documents.

There are a lot more than 4 DGs. There are around 20 as I remember.

There may well be some homes connected to the single-phase network which are in DG1 but i would be surprised. If there are any ilthe other way round, they are paying too much on their electricity bill.

There has to be a ‘hard’, clear cut difference between DG2 and DG1 because there is a pricing difference. It’s not just statistical.

In referring to usage profile I fear you are mixing up the (load) profile with the distribution group.

The profile is another number in the top right corner of the bill.

The profile is based on the MCC as well as the distribution group and for larger sites, the load factor.

Just because two sites have the same DG it does not mean they have the same profile. There are 24 going on 27 profiles the last time i checked, the majority of which apply to just two DGs.

FrankPoll.

I'm in the electrical game but haven't noticed this definition before

It makes sense anyway that you'd have a clear definition such as connection to 1P or 3P network

KCross

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Sure it does. DG1 means it is connected to the three-phase network. DG2 is the single phase network. What’s not backed up about it?

I think you've misinterpreted DG1 and DG2.

Having DG1 or DG2 will tell the Op nothing about the cost of getting a 3ph connection so its a red herring to begin with. It might cost €2k to connect a rural connection to 3ph or it might cost €40k.... and similarly for urban locations. I think you have more or less said that yourself so I dont know why DG1/DG2 is being brought into it. Its meaningless in the context of the op getting 3ph.

The DG assignments are primarily a biling thing to distinguish between urban and rural customer. Its how our bills work. If you are DG2 then you pay the higher standing charge as you are classed as a rural customer who costs more to maintain. It has nothing to do with how easy/hard/cheap/expensive it is to get 3ph in.

FrankPoll.

No it won't tell you much about price

But are you saying it has nothing to do with the network or not?

KCross

FrankPoll. wrote: »

No it won't tell you much about price

But are you saying it has nothing to do with the network or not?

As I said, to my knowledge, its just a billing thing.

If you get tagged as DG2 then you are a rural customer and so you pay the higher standing charge. Thats all it means.


antoin's own quote from the ESB is fairly clear...

4.1.1 Urban Domestic Connections
Urban domestic connections are defined as domestic connections that are fed from three-phase overhead or underground LV network. This rule ignores the service which may be single or three phase.

DG1 designation tells the Op nothing in relation to 3ph.

FrankPoll.

KCross wrote: »

As I said, to my knowledge, its just a billing thing.

If you get tagged as DG2 then you are a rural customer and so you pay the higher standing charge. Thats all it means.


antoin's own quote from the ESB is fairly clear...

4.1.1 Urban Domestic Connections
Urban domestic connections are defined as domestic connections that are fed from three-phase overhead or underground LV network. This rule ignores the service which may be single or three phase.

DG1 designation tells the Op nothing in relation to 3ph.

You're mixed up there anyhow

It states a connection to the 3 phase network

The service is the supply entering the premises which can be either 1P or 3P

The network is stated as 3p overhead or under

I'm more curious than anythinh

KCross

FrankPoll. wrote: »

You're mixed up there

It states a connection to the 3 phase network

The service is the supply entering the premises which can be either 1P or 3P

I'm more curious than anythinh

There are two "or's" in the statement. Read the first line again. It doesnt say 3ph via overhead or underground... it says 3ph overhead or underground LV. That under ground LV can be 1ph or 3ph.


DG1 does not necessarily mean you are connected to the 3ph network.

FrankPoll.

3P overhead or underground LV

Means 3P 380v overhead or underground not 1P


Like I said im only in it for the debate, never heard before a definition

FrankPoll.

KCross wrote: »

As I said, to my knowledge, its just a billing thing.

If you get tagged as DG2 then you are a rural customer and so you pay the higher standing charge. Thats all it means.


antoin's own quote from the ESB is fairly clear...

4.1.1 Urban Domestic Connections
Urban domestic connections are defined as domestic connections that are fed from three-phase overhead or underground LV network. This rule ignores the service which may be single or three phase.

DG1 designation tells the Op nothing in relation to 3ph.

Dg1 there means a 1P or 3P service from the house connecting to an overhead or underground 3P network

Its fairly clear to me

KCross

FrankPoll. wrote: »

3P overhead or underground LV

Means 3P 380v overhead or underground not 1P


Like I said im only in it for the debate, never heard before a definition

I dont read it that way.

We're just spinning our wheels now really.

Ultimately, the Op would like 3ph and that requires a quote from ESB networks and DG1 or DG2 is going to have zero influence on that quote.

It could be a case that a DG2 customer would get connected cheaper than the Op on DG1. For example, if he was in a housing estate it might have a 3ph connection somewhere feeding it but 1ph LV to his house so it would require phishing cables underground... its not like the 3 phases are outside every DG1 customers door just waiting to be connected up. It could be 100s of metres away. The whole DG1/DG2 thing is a red herring for the Op.

FrankPoll.

I'm 30 years reading esbn handbooks and electrical regulations

The dg1 statement is simple and self explanatory to my reading, not sure about spinning wheels

KCross

FrankPoll. wrote: »

I'm 30 years reading esbn handbooks and electrical regulations

The dg1 statement is simple and self explanatory to my reading, not sure about spinning wheels

I think we've come to a conclusion on the subject then!

As I said, its irrelevant to this thread whether the Op is DG1 or DG2.

air

KCross wrote: »

antoin's own quote from the ESB is fairly clear...

4.1.1 Urban Domestic Connections
Urban domestic connections are defined as domestic connections that are fed from three-phase overhead or underground LV network. This rule ignores the service which may be single or three phase.

I do read that as DG1 means you are supplied from a 3 phase transformer.

However I'm also in agreement with Kcross that it's of no relevance in predicting an upgrade quote.

Will check out the profile/DG on the commercial bill later out of interest. The ones I checked had the same standing charges which would indicate to me the DG was the same.

antoinolachtnai

air wrote: »

I do read that as DG1 means you are supplied from a 3 phase transformer.

However I'm also in agreement with Kcross that it's of no relevance in predicting an upgrade quote.

Will check out the profile/DG on the commercial bill later out of interest. The ones I checked had the same standing charges which would indicate to me the DG was the same.

No difference in tariff on commercial between rural and urban networks. Most (230000 odd) are DG5. 20000 or so are DG6 (larger users). A few thousand large sites make up the others, which are mostly large customers. There's also unmetered.

air

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

No difference in tariff on commercial between rural and urban networks. Most (230000 odd) are DG5. 20000 or so are DG6 (larger users). A few thousand large sites make up the others, which are mostly large customers. There's also unmetered.

Yes, all DG5 irrespective of MIC, location (urban/rural) or number of phases available.

0lddog

Do the retail tariffs that are listed on Bonkers and the like apply equally to 3p and 1p supplies - or just to 1p supplies ?

With regard to the original topic of the thread ( ) I'd suggest paying considerable attention to the hot water pipe run lengths.

( A peev of mine is where I am at present it is necessary to run off around 3 liters of water before hot water comes out of the hot tap in the kitchen. Its a waste of cold water and a waste of hot water )

catharsis

Just to update (and thanks to all of the contributors for an interesting aside about DGs :-) )

I have requested an upgrade to 16KVA and 3PH from ESB, I will revert with the quote to the thread for information, I was also told I had only an 8KVA connection to the house which was a surprise given we have an existing EVSE.

I will also request the architect to let me know whether it is possible in some way to have a 'divided fuseboard' so that I can connected the EVSE, any future Solar connections etc outside the house in an area outside the airtight envelope.

If I am specifically asking what to do here would that be requesting something like an additional "distribution board" ?

air

What i'd recommend doing would be the following:

1. Relocate the meter to an external cabinet away from your house.
This will ease meter reading, reduce intrusion from same and most importantly mean that any future works that you carry out from then on will not need to involve ESB.
It also simplifies insulation and air tightness detailing for your architect.
It should be mandatory at this stage IMHO, makes life easier for everyone.

2. Locate a small sub board within the meter enclosure with your main customer fuse together with an outgoing circuit for both your house and your EVSE / outdoor board.

IIRC the few breakers within the meter enclosure may be against regs strictly speaking but I've never heard of it being raised as an issue in practice and I don't see any problem myself.

16kVA sounds too small for 3 phase, it wouldn't be a standard option.
It would cause issues for you as you couldn't run a lot of standard domestic single phase appliances - electric shower, 7.2kW EVSE etc.

catharsis

air wrote: »

What i'd recommend doing would be the following:

1. Relocate the meter to an external cabinet away from your house.
This will ease meter reading, reduce intrusion from same and most importantly mean that any future works that you carry out from then on will not need to involve ESB.
It also simplifies insulation and air tightness detailing for your architect.
It should be mandatory at this stage IMHO, makes life easier for everyone.

2. Locate a small sub board within the meter enclosure with your main customer fuse together with an outgoing circuit for both your house and your EVSE / outdoor board.

IIRC the few breakers within the meter enclosure may be against regs strictly speaking but I've never heard of it being raised as an issue in practice and I don't see any problem myself.

16kVA sounds too small for 3 phase, it wouldn't be a standard option.
It would cause issues for you as you couldn't run a lot of standard domestic single phase appliances - electric shower, 7.2kW EVSE etc.

Firstly many thanks for the above

Secondly just to confirm that the ESB engineer had a site visit today and verbally let me know that the upgrade to 3 phase would be "whatever the minimum charge is" in effect - because the lamppost directly across the street has 3 phase supply.

This might be useful information for anyone else considering an upgrade and/or installing an EVSE in particular.

air

No problem, happy to help.
I'd recommend revising your application up to 29kVA if you're going ahead at 3 phase anyway.

This will give you decent charge rates with a 3ph EV and good single phase capacity also.

On commercial supplies at least the PSO levy is the same flat rate up to 29kVA.

It shouldn't be a problem getting a revised quote at this stage.