Allow a child to explore faith or not?

AulWan

lazygal wrote: »

If kids in school are allowed to present aspects of their faith, such as when a Muslim child brought in a prayer mat and spoke about gender segregation in his mosque, my children should be able to say this is misogyny and not a nice belief system.

No, they shouldn't.

Because the difference is, the muslim child is simply talking about his faith. They are not preaching or telling your child that what they practice is something your child should do too.

If your child then turns around and criticises what the muslim child has said, they are being rude and disrespectful of that child's faith. That is not okay.

When your child's turn comes to present aspects of their faith, or lack of faith as the case may be, then they can say my family does not believe in religion or have any belief system. They can say it then without criticising any aspects of any of their classmate's faiths.

There is a very useful skill you can teach a child. Its called having some TACT and knowing when its appropriate to speak, and when to stay quiet.

This is one of them.

Cabaal

AulWan wrote: »

No, they shouldn't.

Because the difference is, the muslim child is simply talking about his faith. They are not preaching or telling your child that what they practice is something your child should do too.

If your child then turns around and criticises what the muslim child has said, they are being rude and disrespectful of that child's faith. That is not okay.

When your child's turn comes to present aspects of their faith, or lack of faith as the case may be, then they can say my family does not believe in religion or have any belief system. They can say it then without criticising any aspects of any of their classmate's faiths.

There is a very useful skill you can teach a child. Its called having some TACT and knowing when its appropriate to speak, and when to stay quiet.

This is one of them.

Interesting,
So if a Christian child came into school and spoke about how gay people are an abomination against god and what they do is sinful and they'll go to hell for it for doing it. you'd be grand with that?

What about if they came into school and expressed how women having sex before marriage was wrong and sinful or how getting pregnant outside of marriage was utterly wrong.

Should everyone respect that expression of faith also and remain silent?

These are all views that many Christians strongly believe but based on your input here its important that everybody stays quiet and use tact because somebody is merely expressing their belief, so that would make it ok.

Speaking in such a manner could be hugely hurtful and upsetting towards children and families that use the school. But I guess they'll just have to swallow that pain until it's their turn to speak
:rolleyes:

AulWan

Cabaal wrote: »

Interesting,
So if a Christian child came into school and spoke about how gay people are an abomination against god and what they do is sinful and they'll go to hell for it for doing it. you'd be grand with that?

What about if they came into school and expressed how women having sex before marriage was wrong and sinful or how getting pregnant outside of marriage was utterly wrong.

Should everyone respect that expression of faith also and remain silent?

These are all views that many Christians strongly believe but based on your input here its important that everybody stays quiet and use tact because somebody is merely expressing their belief, so that would make it ok.

Speaking in such a manner could be hugely hurtful and upsetting towards children and families that use the school. But I guess they'll just have to swallow that pain until it's their turn to speak
:rolleyes:

You don't seem to have a problem with children of no faith saying anything which maybe hugely hurtful and upsetting to a child brought up with a faith. e.g. calling it "silly" or "lies" or "misogynistic"?

Double standards much?

You're just being argumentative for the sake of it now. Before teaching your child how to argue matters of faith with their classmates, you should teach them how to be to be respectful and have some basic manners.

Screw Attack

No. We don't allow children alcohol and drugs because science says its bad for them.

Reppohc

Its 2019 and we still subscribe to the desert version of Mithraism.
Tell him that he should respect other people's beliefs like when he used to believe in the tooth fairy or Santa or the Bohr theory of atomic structure and it would have been uncultured to point out the holes in his understanding.

Cabaal

AulWan wrote: »

You don't seem to have a problem with children of no faith saying anything which maybe hugely hurtful and upsetting to a child brought up with a faith. e.g. calling it "silly" or "lies" or "misogynistic"?

Double standards much?

You're just being argumentative for the sake of it now. Before teaching your child how to argue matters of faith with their classmates, you should teach them how to be to be respectful and have some basic manners.

First off, I never said anything about silly, lies or misogynistic. I said faith is just a belief and like all beliefs, it should not be blindly accepted as fact or real.

Many beliefs in faiths are completely out of step with the modern world and our country, including what the country has voted for in referendums.

So, to clarify.
You'd have no problem with somebody of a faith expressing their views that single mothers are sinful and gay people are an abomination, provided this is part of them expressing their faith? Again many people of faith holds such views very strongly.

A simple yes or no will do if you find that easier.

Respect works both ways, giving somebody the green light to be hurtful and spread hate just because its part of their religious beliefs is incredibly dangerous. Asking others to respect those hateful beliefs is outright crazy.

Oh and funny you mention misogynistic, its nice that you'd also have no problem with any child expressing their faith if it involved the belief that women shouldn't be working, driving, shouldn't show their faces in front of men and shouldn't have the ability to tell a man what to do. You know, because that viewpoint is fine and should be totally respected because of "faith".
:rolleyes:

dvdman1

Let the child do as they please, dont create a big deal out of it.....even though something may be bs to your husband it may have other benifits
A child experiencing different pts of life is generally a good thing it'll help them have greater understanding about things in the future.
Remember we dont always have to pin our colours to yea or nay....as you would expect in life the grey areas are what matters in understanding especially religion.

AulWan

Cabaal wrote: »

First off, I never said anything about silly, lies or misogynistic. I said faith is just a belief and like all beliefs, it should not be blindly accepted as fact or real.

You didn't say it. But you didn't jump in to pull up the poster who encourages their child to say that, the way you're jumping on my posts.

Says enough for me, really.

I actually couldn't be bothered reading your posts or any more of your ridiculous "what if.. " scenarios any further. Carry on.

El_Duderino 09

ABitFedUp wrote: »

. Our daughter has just started school in the local RC primary and is asking to say prayers and wants to learn the words and my husband wants to tell her it is all rubbish whereas I don’t think it does any harm and she should be allowed to make up her own mind. He thinks that the church uses this to get people in while they are young and impressionable and that she will be brain-washed!

Be fair though, they get them to say the prayers and learn them off by heart before they know what they mean precisely to brainwash them. Get them in the habit of doing it first, then teach them what the words mean.

It’s a nasty trick and your husband is dead right to want to protect her from it. I would disagree with telling her it’s all rubbish, I would opt to tell her I think it’s all rubbish (that’s the truth because he does think it’s all rubbish) and she can make up her own mind when she’s old enough to understand what it means (also the truth)

Learning the words and adding in the meaning would work to brainwash children into any belief imaginable. It’s a nasty trick religions play in schools.

Ursus Horribilis

Most people end up deciding that religion is not for them by the time they reach their teenage years anyway. Especially, I should imagine, if they're not being actively raised in that religion. All you need to do is look at the attendance at mass any weekend.

Donnielighto

shesty wrote: »

This is exactly my thinking.No matter what you do you are foisting your choice on them and indoctrinating them in your own way.Worrying that they will become brainwashed by the bit of religion they do in school is extreme (to me anyway). At least if you open the religion to them and show them how it works, you give them the option to question it, rather than it all being a big mystery that everyone else can participate in but not them.I often wonder how many kids who are now being instructed against religion will turn around in their teens and twenties and decide to join a church, because they have always been told not to.

It's all about choices in the long run I guess and it's harder to make choices if you have no knowledge or information.I don't think there is anything wrong with religion but I would rather my kids knew enough to make informed choices about what they believe, rather than just being told by me that it's all rubbish and stay away from it.

Atheism/agnosticism isn't indoctrination, it's evidence based.

ABitFedUp

I think you and your husband can both "win" here as you can perfectly well engaged with prayer _and_ tell them it is all rubbish at the same time. Let me explain.

My kids have a very active imagination and fantasy life and I engaged with it and nourish it as much as I can. I however never do anything where I have to convince them some fantasy is true - in order for them to benefit from the fantasy. So for example I never did the Santa thing with the 2 kids I have now - nor will I with the next kids.

My kids have shown no interest in prayer at all but if they did I would probably do it under that approach. I would let them know I absolutely think the idea of a god is nonsense - but that I absolutely do believe meditation practices are beneficial and enriching and prayer is just another form of that.

I can tell my kids that if they want to imagine a secret invisible daddy in the sky and want to speak with him that's fine and I will even do it with them. I will tell them it is fun - useful - healthy - calming - and more. But I will make it clear to them that it is - like many other things we do - just fantasy play. And like all fantasy play you can get all the fun and benefit from it without ever having to lose sight of the fact it is fantasy play.

We do a lot of that though. And we throw ourselves into it. Sometimes I throw myself into fantasy with them so convincingly that on occasion it is _them_ that sometimes stop to remind _me_ that it is all not actually real and is all just pretend

All that said for me personally - no slight on you - this sentence here -

ABitFedUp wrote: »

I don’t want her to be different to the other kids

- is one I hear a lot but not one I have ever been able to relate to. I absolutely want my kids to be different in many ways to other kids. I want an individual as a child not a clone. I want to discover and develop who _they_ are as people - not mould them to fit any crowd. Where they are the same as other kids I will nurture that. Where they are different I will nurture that too.

boarduser01

ABitFedUp wrote: »

We have been considering opting out after 1st class so there is no preparation for the sacraments. Luckily she has no older female cousins who have made communion so won’t be aware of the drama of the dress and want to participate on those grounds alone! ...

You think that she is not going to be aware of the other girls getting excited by their dresses...!!!!! She will be fully aware of the drama, but you can deal with it in many different ways. For my daughter (who chose not to make her communion in the Catholic church), we took her out and she chose a new outfit to wear that she would use at weekends. But actually she was ok; as it was her choosing to be different from all her classmates anyway, it was more about me not wanting her to feel like she missed out on something just because other parents were spending a huge amount of money on their children. If you truly want your daughter to make her own decisions, then don't be afraid of letting her see faiths in the school and outside the school. You don't have to critizise other peoples beliefs, just explain in a factual way what you think they are about and what you believe.

_Kaiser_

The problem is that RC schools still have a strong hold in most areas, and alternatives may not be available at all or not practical.

Had this discussion myself at the time with the little lad's mother and I was of the view that he should be kept out of it until of an age to make up his own mind either way (which is how I was raised too), but she didn't want him to feel excluded and it was also the better school in the area. ET was considered but warned off that by a teacher who said that so much of the time would be spent focusing on kids who didn't have English as their first language that he'd be at a disadvantage. Now I've no idea if that was racially motivated (nor do I care TBH), but I can see the logic alright given shifting demographics.

In any case, he occasionally mentions a few things about God and such but nothing that has prompted me to have another chat about it with him/her.

lazygal

There's far more children in the catholic school nearby who don't have english as a first language than in our ET school. Some teachers are really weirdly anti ET for various reasons, probably not helped by the extremist religious bodies in charge of most teacher training colleges. The school everyone avoids in our estate is the most religious one. You only send your child there as a last resort.

Anyway even in a religious school children don't have to do religion. No reason not to opt them out of all the communion crap.

shesty

It is very dependent on the area I'd say.A local ET primary school for us doesn't have the expected numbers but the nearby RC primary school for the same area is so big it got split into a senior and junior school recently and is still growing.Like anything, I imagine it depends on demographics and also what the teachers make the ethos of the school into, be it religious or not.

Peppery

ABitFedUp wrote: »

My view of some of the educate together schools is that the kids cannot conform as is required by society. They are too instilled with a sense of entitlement about their own opinions and abilities! Neither of us even like the way the call the teachers by their first name! A friend who teaches second level says she can always guess the children who have come from educate together schools at open evenings vs other primary schools!
Now don’t jump down my throat over my opinion! Other people might think it is a good thing they are being brought up that way but I just think too many kids struggle when they get into the real world and have to knuckle down and settle into being minions in the workplace!

This is just bizarre. It's not strictly related to the topic but this has angered me.

Have you been in an educate together? Talked to someone who went to or taught in an educate together? For a start, each school is different with different behavioural policies - just like a RC school. Secondly, calling teachers by their first name is a norm in our society - do you make your daughter call the person who works in your local shop Mr/Ms, or her distant relatives, or the person who delivers your post? It's just not done anymore. I've taught junior infants in an educate together and I couldn't imagine asking them to call me Ms.

In relation to being 'entitled' most schools (regardless of denomination) aim to educate in an holistic way that promotes confidence in themselves and their opinions, and allows them to develop - not produce 'minions'.

I think your ideas of school are less to do with denomination and more stuck in the past. To be frank, they're dangerous too. The idea of children shutting up and becoming minions is what allowed child abuse to be so prevalent in this country.