Allow a child to explore faith or not?

ABitFedUp

Hi, my husband would be agnostic whereas I would have been brought up in a very religious family but lost my faith like many people. Our daughter has just started school in the local RC primary and is asking to say prayers and wants to learn the words and my husband wants to tell her it is all rubbish whereas I don’t think it does any harm and she should be allowed to make up her own mind. He thinks that the church uses this to get people in while they are young and impressionable and that she will be brain-washed! I don’t want her to be different to the other kids but I also don’t want my husband to feel that I think my views are all that matters. I would like him to wait til she is older before he explains his point of view and let her decide then whether she agrees or not. Has anyone else gone though this or do people who have no faith just go to educate together/non denominational schools?

AulWan

If your husband felt that strongly about it, why did he agree to enrolling your daughter in a RC school in the first place?

An ET school would probably have been a better choice. As far I know there are no totally non-demonimational schools.

Now she is in an awkward position. If she is hearing one thing in school, and something else from her dad at home, (which she may then repeat to the teacher) I can only see it leading to confusion for her.

You can opt your child out of religion in school, (eg. communion prep) but in my view, your husband knew it was an RC school, so he will need to accept that she is going to see, hear and learn some stuff and bide his time, rather then make a big deal about it and causing confusion for her, now.

If he can't do that, then move her.

Springfields

ABitFedUp wrote: »

Hi, my husband would be agnostic whereas I would have been brought up in a very religious family but lost my faith like many people. Our daughter has just started school in the local RC primary and is asking to say prayers and wants to learn the words and my husband wants to tell her it is all rubbish whereas I don’t think it does any harm and she should be allowed to make up her own mind. He thinks that the church uses this to get people in while they are young and impressionable and that she will be brain-washed! I don’t want her to be different to the other kids but I also don’t want my husband to feel that I think my views are all that matters. I would like him to wait til she is older before he explains his point of view and let her decide then whether she agrees or not. Has anyone else gone though this or do people who have no faith just go to educate together/non denominational schools?

Not quite the same scenario but my husband and I are not church goers and have our children enrolled in local rc national school ( no multi denominational school in the vicinity. We had them baptized to ensure entry to this school (at the time.the schools were able to prioritize the rc applicants ) . However they will not making communion or confirmation. They can if they.choose.to later in life. From infants we found the religious curriculum quite generic in that it was a lot.about looking after your environment being nice.to people etc etc so we just let them participate.
When they are this young I dont see the point in confusing them and.telling them what is.being taught is rubbish. They wont understand and that age the teacher is right no matter what
When it.came to communion time we had.them well prepped that they wouldn't be making it and why and when it came to the time they didn't worry about it. I think that was a better age to try explain things.
I be slow to say too to a small child that it's all a load of bull ( even tho that's what I believe!) But they need.to be mindful of others who do practice and just to realise that everyone is.different and that's ok too...

beveragelady

I went to a Catholic school in the 80s, raised in an atheist family. We were told from a very young age that lots of people believed in gods and we should be polite about it but think for ourselves. Never had any problems. I remember being impressed by the pageantry and glamour of churches and playing along for a bit but I never believed a word of it. There's probably no harm in your daughter taking part, schools aren't as pushy about indoctrination and faith formation as they used to be.

Cabaal

ABitFedUp wrote: »

Hi, my husband would be agnostic whereas I would have been brought up in a very religious family but lost my faith like many people. Our daughter has just started school in the local RC primary and is asking to say prayers and wants to learn the words and my husband wants to tell her it is all rubbish whereas I don’t think it does any harm and she should be allowed to make up her own mind. He thinks that the church uses this to get people in while they are young and impressionable and that she will be brain-washed!

I must say I'd agree with your husband,
The whole thing with RC schools is they work religion into everything, there is no such thing as a religion class because they work religion into english and art subjects.

Overall they spend 10% on avg of the school year on religion (thats as much as maths and english) and this increases to upto 20% in communion/confirmation prep years. Thats alot of focus on a religion that they won't encourage her to question while shes in school.

The reality is if you took religion out of our school systems most parents wouldn't bother with communion and confirmation, as it is most hate having to go to mass coming up to the events.

Its all very much about getting them young with the RC faith.

I don’t want her to be different to the other kids but I also don’t want my husband to feel that I think my views are all that matters.

Ask yourself this,
If your local school happened to be Jewish or Muslim, would you raise your child in either of those faiths just so they aren't different to the other kids?

Because that's essentially what you are proposing to do here.
It seems you just want an easy life rather then allowing her to actually explore all faiths.

I would like him to wait til she is older before he explains his point of view and let her decide then whether she agrees or not. Has anyone else gone though this or do people who have no faith just go to educate together/non-denominational schools?

But if she's exploring faiths then the proper way for her to do this is to be aware of other faiths and none even at a young age, she needs to understand from a young age that these are just stories...not facts as they are thought in school.

By allowing the RC faith to gets first dips and to indoctrinate her isn't allowing her to explore her faith at all. She won't be encouraged in school to question the whole jesus/bible/god thing as they don't like that

AulWan

Cabaal wrote: »

Overall they spend 10% on avg of the school year on religion (thats as much as maths and english) and this increases to upto 20% in communion/confirmation prep years.

This very much depends on each individual school.

The RC school my children attended spent nowhere near that much time on religion, not even in second class and definitely not in sixth class when the emphasis was on getting them ready for secondary school, more than confirmation.

shesty

Whereas I would take the opposite approach and say expose her to a faith young and encourage her to question it.Does it matter if she questions in while in school? She can come home and question it, nothing wrong with that.She doesn't have to participate in communion or confirmation.

I would however, tell your husband to watch the language he uses.By all means encourage her to question religion, and discuss it but do not encourage her to go around saying it is all bull#$%&.Teach her tolerance instead of scorn.There are so many religions in the world and she doesn't have to have one, but she does need to understand that hers is not the only opinion that matters, and to accept that not everybody has her beliefs.That is almost more important than teaching an actual belief.

twowheelsonly

Your husband is agnostic, presumably by his own choice /of his own free will. Likewise yourself, been there, done that and chose to opt out.
Why not give this choice to your daughter instead of foisting it upon her ? By denying her religion now you're essentially making that choice for her whereas by allowing her to try out different things (and not just religion) she'll be informed enough to make her own mind up.
In the early days it's nothing more than stories anyway. Leave her play along with the rest of the kids and decide herself when she's a bit older.

shesty

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Why not give this choice to your daughter instead of foisting it upon her ? By denying her religion now you're essentially making that choice for her whereas by allowing her to try out different things (and not just religion) she'll be informed enough to make her own mind up.

This is exactly my thinking.No matter what you do you are foisting your choice on them and indoctrinating them in your own way.Worrying that they will become brainwashed by the bit of religion they do in school is extreme (to me anyway). At least if you open the religion to them and show them how it works, you give them the option to question it, rather than it all being a big mystery that everyone else can participate in but not them.I often wonder how many kids who are now being instructed against religion will turn around in their teens and twenties and decide to join a church, because they have always been told not to.

It's all about choices in the long run I guess and it's harder to make choices if you have no knowledge or information.I don't think there is anything wrong with religion but I would rather my kids knew enough to make informed choices about what they believe, rather than just being told by me that it's all rubbish and stay away from it.

ABitFedUp

Thanks everyone, I appreciate everyone’s point of view, and there were some good points to discuss with my husband about allowing her to think for herself and not confusing her. In some ways I think it is like Santa Claus, just letting her have something to hold onto and believe in until she is old enough to know more.
There were a number of reasons to send her to the RC school, the first being it is more accessible to us and our childminder transport wise, the second being that unfortunately there is not a big choice of good second level schools so that it will be easier to get into the nearest one if she has been at primary school in the catchment area, the last was that I do think the mainstream (mainly RC) schools are more in line with our parenting style. My view of some of the educate together schools is that the kids cannot conform as is required by society. They are too instilled with a sense of entitlement about their own opinions and abilities! Neither of us even like the way the call the teachers by their first name! A friend who teaches second level says she can always guess the children who have come from educate together schools at open evenings vs other primary schools!
Now don’t jump down my throat over my opinion! Other people might think it is a good thing they are being brought up that way but I just think too many kids struggle when they get into the real world and have to knuckle down and settle into being minions in the workplace!

mordeith

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Y
Why not give this choice to your daughter instead of foisting it upon her ? By denying her religion now you're essentially making that choice for her whereas by allowing her to try out different things (and not just religion) she'll be informed enough to make her own mind up.
In the early days it's nothing more than stories anyway. Leave her play along with the rest of the kids and decide herself when she's a bit older.

The difference is kids are taught that what they learn in religion is true. A junior infant isn't going to be exploring religion. They are being told that Catholic/Christian beliefs are the truth and given the same weight in the school day as maths, english, irish etc.
I'd opt them out of religion if I was you OP. That's what we did. When the child gets older is will be far easier fro them to chose themselves if they want to explore religion rather than being shown images now of a dead guy nailed to a cross at Easter and being told it's essentially all your fault!

ABitFedUp

mordeith wrote: »

The difference is kids are taught that what they learn in religion is true. A junior infant isn't going to be exploring religion. They are being told that Catholic/Christian beliefs are the truth and given the same weight in the school day as maths, english, irish etc.
I'd opt them out of religion if I was you OP. That's what we did. When the child gets older is will be far easier fro them to chose themselves if they want to explore religion rather than being shown images now of a dead guy nailed to a cross at Easter and being told it's essentially all your fault!

We have been considering opting out after 1st class so there is no preparation for the sacraments. Luckily she has no older female cousins who have made communion so won’t be aware of the drama of the dress and want to participate on those grounds alone! I do agree a bit about kids being indoctrinated early but surely between the ages of 4 & 7 it is more moral guidance than anything? I have vague memories of being told about Zacchaeus the greedy tax collector at a young age in school but don’t think there was anything disturbing or inappropriate that would narrow a child’s view of the world or lure them into a beliefs system unbeknownst to anyone...

Cabaal

ABitFedUp wrote: »

Neither of us even like the way the call the teachers by their first name!

You do know if they go to third level they'll call the lecturers by the first name, they'll also call their boss by their first name. Why the obsession with being called Miss or Sir?

Many teachers seem obsessed with being called Miss or Sir, I know somebody who a few years back did a Level 5 course which was being done by a teacher from the local secondary school.

Despite the class being made up of people ranging from 18 to 40 years of age the teacher demanded that people call her Miss and demanded that people also ask for permission before they go to the toilet.

Both demands were a farce and basically anyone over 25 in the course ignored them and treated the class the same way they treated college (which most had already experience with), they used her first name and they went to the toilet when they needed to.

Oh and that same teacher was from a catholic school and also asked that everyone stand for the angelus at 12pm.
:rolleyes:

mordeith wrote: »

The difference is kids are taught that what they learn in religion is true. A junior infant isn't going to be exploring religion. They are being told that Catholic/Christian beliefs are the truth and given the same weight in the school day as maths, english, irish etc.
I'd opt them out of religion if I was you OP. That's what we did. When the child gets older is will be far easier fro them to chose themselves if they want to explore religion rather than being shown images now of a dead guy nailed to a cross at Easter and being told it's essentially all your fault!

This is spot on, children at such a young age are not thought to explore faiths or question the catholic faith. Instead its told to them as fact.

For anyone wanting their kid to explore a faiths the child must be aware that the stories are not factual, they should also be exposed to other faiths.

Neyite

We are in a similar situation - both agnostic/athiest but child enrolled in a catholic school (very rural & only option)
But... my view is that there's a difference between religious doctrine and personal faith. And that was my deciding factor really.

Religion has worldwide historical context. If we want to understand events in history and how they've shaped our borders, our societal structures, our cultures, our laws and all that, it really helps to have studied religion or have some sort of knowledge about how people driven by a belief system can cause all those things and the knock on effect from those events. If we want to understand dangerous ideology in the future such as how ISIS takes hold or recruits then it's important to have a working knowledge of a religion. Take the issues about Brexit backstop for example. The Plantations of Ulster were down to James VI &I giving the land to his loyal subjects who's faith aligned closely to his, displacing Irish natives. That led to the six counties Partition during our War of Independence, the Troubles, the Good Friday Agreement, power sharing in Stormont and now Brexit and the problem of the backstop that's impossible to solve.

Faith is different. And the way I see it is that in our day, most of us were indoctrinated with the fact that Catholicism was the only religion in town and the only True faith and we weren't allowed to question it.

So for me, I think it's important for my son to have an understanding of how religions can work so it can supplement his understanding of cultures, laws, societal norms, history, geography, politics etc. It won't be indoctrination hopefully because I'll supplement it at home by telling him what I can about other religions and how they shaped /are shaping the world and encourage him to question and think about it all. He can disbelieve but still be respectful of other people's faith if not their belief system. Whether he develops faith in a religion is really his own choice he makes when he's older.

Paddy Cow

You're both over thinking it. Kids go through phases and that's all this is. Saying prayers is something new and while the child might do it for a week or so, they will get bored and forget about it.

lazygal

Children in Ireland don't explore faith in an open way. Even in our Educate Together school the religious ****e is treated with kid gloves. So we discuss how silly religious beliefs are at home and that it is perfectly ok to question them in school and say exactly what they think of them.

AulWan

lazygal wrote: »

Children in Ireland don't explore faith in an open way. Even in our Educate Together school the religious ****e is treated with kid gloves. So we discuss how silly religious beliefs are at home and that it is perfectly ok to question them in school and say exactly what they think of them.

Wow.

So you actively encourage your children to be argumentative and disrespectful in school, to what may be a classmate's faith ?

That's just rude.

Say what you like at home. But your children should be taught to be respectful of someone else's faith in school.

Paddy Cow

AulWan wrote: »

Wow.

So you actively encourage your children to be argumentative and disrespectful in school, to what may be a classmate's faith ?

That's just rude.

Say what you like at home. But your children should be taught to be respectful of someone else's faith in school.

That's a major leap from saying what you think to being argumentative and disrespectful. You can disagree with someone without being rude or disrespectful.

lazygal

No I encourage them to state that they don't believe any of this. That there's no evidence of any god. That religion has a lot of negative aspects such as the suppression of reproductive rights. And that our family's view of religion is as valid as the family who follows Islam or Catholicism or any other mad religion.

AulWan

I disagree.

If a child pipes up in school that something is "silly" relating to someone's faith, then that is being disrespectful. I would not encourage that.

Educate Together schools are not non-denomination, they are multi-denomination. It would be very possible to cause offence. If you've nothing good to say, say nothing.

victor8600

I am totally atheist. Yet, a prayer or some chanting may be beneficial to you. Repeating magic words may help you deal with an anxiety or a stress. Sure, you can invent your own prayer, but why bother when the church had done the work for you.

Paddy Cow

AulWan wrote: »

I disagree.

If a child pipes up in school that something is "silly" relating to someone's faith, then that is being disrespectful. I would not encourage that.

Educate Together schools are not non-denomination, they are multi-denomination. It would be very possible to cause offence. If you've nothing good to say, say nothing.

You are absolutely right. If a child called another child's religion silly that would be rude and disrespectful.

That never happened though.

Why are you running down ET schools? Have you had a bad experience that you are projecting onto a poster here?

AulWan

I didn't run down ET schools. I pointed out that they are not non-denominational, (no faith) but multi-denominational, meaning there will be children attending of many faiths.

That's simply factual, not negativity. I don't have a problem with ET schools.

lazygal

Mine are in one and if my children have to do the learn together programme which is entirely uncritical of religion we will balance that out by saying our family doesn't believe any of this nonsense and none of it is true.
No one has to respect anyone's beliefs. You respect people.

is_that_so

lazygal wrote: »

Mine are in one and if my children have to do the learn together programme which is entirely uncritical of religion we will balance that out by saying our family doesn't believe any of this nonsense and none of it is true.
No one has to respect anyone's beliefs. You respect people.

Which includes their beliefs.

AulWan

is_that_so wrote: »

Which includes their beliefs.

Exactly.

Paddy Cow

AulWan wrote: »

I didn't run down ET schools. I pointed out that they are not non-denominational, (no faith) but multi-denominational, meaning there will be children attending of many faiths.

That's simply factual, not negativity. I don't have a problem with ET schools.

That's exactly what everyone thinks ET schools are so what's the problem?

Cabaal

victor8600 wrote: »

I am totally atheist. Yet, a prayer or some chanting may be beneficial to you. Repeating magic words may help you deal with an anxiety or a stress. Sure, you can invent your own prayer, but why bother when the church had done the work for you.

Indeed, just leave your brain at the door eh? Why think for yourself eh?


There's a reason why followers of the faith are referred to as a flock and the lord is the Sheppard.
Sheep just blindly follow...

is_that_so wrote: »

Which includes their beliefs.

Within reason.
A person could hate gay people because of their belief, if we take your line we must respect that belief. However such a belief is not compatible with our society.

A faith is just an idea, like all ideas it can and should be questioned. It shouldn't be accepted as fact or real.

If a person believed in Scientology what you are suggesting is that belief should be respected, I guess that means we should also respect their views on psychiatry and allows them to spread this view. Perhaps they could use some tax payer money to spread it while they are at it similar to how the catholic church uses tax payer money.

Wanting to live in a country where a religion cannot be questioned is a very dangerous place, we should know this already as this is what Ireland once was and look how that turned out.

AulWan

Cabaal wrote: »

Indeed, just leave your brain at the door eh? Why think for yourself eh?


There's a reason why followers of the faith are referred to as a flock and the lord is the Sheppard.
Sheep just blindly follow...



Within reason.
A person could hate gay people because of their belief, if we take your line we must respect that belief. However such a belief is not compatible with our society.

A faith is just an idea, like all ideas it can and should be questioned. It shouldn't be accepted as fact or real.

If a person believed in Scientology what you are suggesting is that belief should be respected, I guess that means we should also respect their views on psychiatry and allows them to spread this view. Perhaps they could use some tax payer money to spread it while they are at it similar to how the catholic church uses tax payer money.

Wanting to live in a country where a religion cannot be questioned is a very dangerous place, we should know this already as this is what Ireland once was and look how that turned out.

We're talking about what is appropriate for school kids in a multi denominational schools.

Get a grip.

lazygal

If kids in school are allowed to present aspects of their faith, such as when a Muslim child brought in a prayer mat and spoke about gender segregation in his mosque, my children should be able to say this is misogyny and not a nice belief system.

M5

AulWan wrote: »

If your husband felt that strongly about it, why did he agree to enrolling your daughter in a RC school in the first place?

An ET school would probably have been a better choice. As far I know there are no totally non-demonimational schools.

Now she is in an awkward position. If she is hearing one thing in school, and something else from her dad at home, (which she may then repeat to the teacher) I can only see it leading to confusion for her.

You can opt your child out of religion in school, (eg. communion prep) but in my view, your husband knew it was an RC school, so he will need to accept that she is going to see, hear and learn some stuff and bide his time, rather then make a big deal about it and causing confusion for her, now.

If he can't do that, then move her.

To be fair,not everyone has a choice. When you leave the cities they are virtually no ET schools.