Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

VinLieger

dublinjock wrote: »

I dont want to shackled to the EU i dont want be shackled to the UK i would like to see a free and independant Scotalnd free to make its own laws . Is this so bad?

Whats stopping you doing that outside the UK but within the EU? What restriction does the EU put on Ireland currently that stops it making its own laws? I cannot grasp your fear or dislike of the EU beyond it being irrationally fueled by far right propaganda.

The reason people might have their shackles up as a lot of the phrasing and arguments you are using come across as someone who believes everything the likes of Farage et al say.

An example is you keep repeating that the EU is undemocratic but have been unable to give voice to a single example of this being true.

looksee

dublinjock wrote: »

Please show me the quote where i have stated im an expert?
In fact i will show you quote where i have stated im not an expert and only within the last few years understanding the EU


What is it when someone dont agree people have to be condescending, im im a free democracy where currently im allowed my views and beliefs.
No i dont have any idea how the EU worjks how it gets it powers and who its accountable to. But i do know one thing i have totally no say in the matter.

Why should you have any say in something you state you don't have any idea about? I would not be allowed to referee a football match as I don't know the first thing about the rules of football, how much more important is the running of a country?

It is because a lot of uninformed people chose to follow their 'views and beliefs' rather than learning facts that this whole mess is happening.

Fionn1952

dublinjock wrote: »

Fionn1952 wrote: »

You actually have a disproportionately high say in the matter. You have more say than, for example, a single French citizen.

You're well within your rights to hold your beliefs, that's certainly a hugely positive aspect of our society. The counterpoint to that is that being free to hold your beliefs without punishment doesn't give you freedom to hold your beliefs without others challenging them.

Perhaps as someone with such strong anti-EU beliefs, it may be worth reading up on how the EU works, where each part derives it's power from, and most importantly, what is within the EUs remit and what remains totally within the remit of national governments. It really isn't particularly complex, and given that you're clearly capable of discussing the matter in a legivle manner, it's certainly not going to be beyond your grasp, despite many painting it as incomprehensibly complex (often to avoid a modicum of research).

Thank you nice post.
Yes i am allowed my view my beliefs and i would fight to my last breath to keep this.
It does appear im having a big say on this thread because so many people are asking me questions and im doing my best to answer each of them as best i can.
But now words are being put in my mouth that im stated imm a self claimed expert, which i have never claimed.A lot of people dont like my view fair enough.


I dont think the EU is Democratic the path its on its gonna get more powers and that frightens me.You might not like my view you might not accept my view but please let me have this and dont try to put words in my mouth. Im not saying you did but one poster already did.

To be frank, whether I accept your view or like your view is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether your view is fact based or an emotion based gut feeling.

I'd ask precisely where you see the democratic deficit in the EU, and what makes you think it's going to get more powers?

What part of being in the EU has personally negatively impacted you, or what powers do you think the EU is going to have in the future that could negatively impact you?

As I'm sure you're already aware, due to the Irish constitution, any further pooling of sovereignty would require that the majority of Irish people agree to it in a referendum. The idea that the EU can just seize power from a country is paranoid and preposterous to be honest with you.

Enzokk

The Daily Mirror was the only paper that went with the headline that Johnson lied to the Queen, but they covered it with a advert sleeve it seems.

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1172028840769675265?s=20

dublinjock

Enzokk wrote: »

It will come when the Supreme Court rules the prorogation as illegal, if not they will not bother about it. Funny that some of the newspapers decided yesterday was the day that people are tired of Brexit and it is time to focus on stories elsewhere.

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1172047865344139264?s=20





Okay, what laws that is forced on you in Scotland from the EU is so bad that you want to leave? Please be specific as you can.

Also, if the UK as an independent nation free from the EU with its 65 million people and 5/6/7th biggest economy is predicted to face severe economic hardship from leaving the EU without a deal, why do you think an independent Scotland would be a good idea?

Its not a question of good or bad laws its a question of making your own rules laws for MPS or MSP.
Sure what the EU stands for does seem good but it dont seem accountable.
Yes Scotland being independent is good idea.

VinLieger

dublinjock wrote: »

Its not a question of good or bad laws its a question of making your own rules laws for MPS or MSP.
Sure what the EU stands for does seem good but it dont seem accountable.
Yes Scotland being independent is good idea.

Whats stopping you making laws within the EU, Please point me to specific examples?


Okay lets say Scotland is independent how do you think a country with 5.5 million population, limited natural resources or industry is going to fare on the international stage when it comes to trade?

dublinjock

Fionn1952 wrote: »

To be frank, whether I accept your view or like your view is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether your view is fact based or an emotion based gut feeling.

I'd ask precisely where you see the democratic deficit in the EU, and what makes you think it's going to get more powers?

What part of being in the EU has personally negatively impacted you, or what powers do you think the EU is going to have in the future that could negatively impact you?

As I'm sure you're already aware, due to the Irish constitution, any further pooling of sovereignty would require that the majority of Irish people agree to it in a referendum. The idea that the EU can just seize power from a country is paranoid and preposterous to be honest with you.

So you admit the EU does have powers, so again who gave them these powers? Who are they accountable to? How do we take these powers back?


Why would the EU seize power of any country? I know during the bail out here in Ireland the EU did not step in to help with the gambling debts of the bankers, so on that basis you would imagine they would never interfere in countries Ecomines??? So i dont see the EU seizing power.

Enzokk

dublinjock wrote: »

Its not a question of good or bad laws its a question of making your own rules laws for MPS or MSP.
Sure what the EU stands for does seem good but it dont seem accountable.
Yes Scotland being independent is good idea.

Try to clear it up for me, you don't want the EU to make your laws but you cannot cite the laws you disagree with that made you reach this conclusion, is that right?

Also I believe Scotland as an independent nation can thrive, but only if it has a close relationship or joins the EU. Scotland as an independent nation with a distant Brexit relationship with the EU will not survive for long. To get a close relationship with the EU for trade you need to buy into a lot of the EU rules and regulations and to ensure that when a dispute happens there is a court to sort it out you need to sign up to ECJ jurisdiction. That means EU laws made by the EU will still influence you.

Call me Al

dublinjock wrote: »

To be honest i have been full of leaving the UK and only in the last few years gave the EU much thought.
But the more i learn and talk to people the more i worry, like the London is undemocratic to Scotland i fear the EU will be as bad.

I'm wondering who you're talking to or where youre reading some of this propaganda? You're living in Ireland. Who is feeding you this stuff?

Have you researched the links given to you earlier explaining the structures within the EU and do you understand that the term President in the context of the EU is not what you seem to have believed it is?

Seth Brundle

dublinjock wrote: »

Thank you nice post.
Yes i am allowed my view my beliefs and i would fight to my last breath to keep this.
It does appear im having a big say on this thread because so many people are asking me questions and im doing my best to answer each of them as best i can.
But now words are being put in my mouth that im stated imm a self claimed expert, which i have never claimed.A lot of people dont like my view fair enough.


I dont think the EU is Democratic the path its on its gonna get more powers and that frightens me.You might not like my view you might not accept my view but please let me have this and dont try to put words in my mouth. Im not saying you did but one poster already did.

dublinjock wrote: »

I dont want to shackled to the EU i dont want be shackled to the UK i would like to see a free and independant Scotalnd free to make its own laws . Is this so bad?

Mod: Leaving all the hyperbole out of it, there's little of substance to most of your posts - raise the bar please!

Seth Brundle

dublinjock wrote: »

Thank you nice post.
Yes i am allowed my view my beliefs and i would fight to my last breath to keep this.
It does appear im having a big say on this thread because so many people are asking me questions and im doing my best to answer each of them as best i can.
But now words are being put in my mouth that im stated imm a self claimed expert, which i have never claimed.A lot of people dont like my view fair enough.


I dont think the EU is Democratic the path its on its gonna get more powers and that frightens me.You might not like my view you might not accept my view but please let me have this and dont try to put words in my mouth. Im not saying you did but one poster already did.

Explain why you believe that the EU is not democratic. Explain why that frightens you but were content to vote for Brexit (despite not understanding the detail).
In terms of us liking your view or not, you are failing to provide much more than statements with nothing behind them and for this reason I posted the above mod note.

dublinjock wrote: »

I dont want to shackled to the EU i dont want be shackled to the UK i would like to see a free and independant Scotalnd free to make its own laws . Is this so bad?

Please define "free and independent" in terms of being a global trader?
Can you clarify one law made by the EU you don't like?

dublinjock

VinLieger wrote: »

Whats stopping you making laws within the EU, Please point me to specific examples?


Okay lets say Scotland is independent how do you think a country with 5.5 population, limited natural resources or industry is going to fare on the international stage when it comes to trade?

I say quite well given a chance. Im sure we could have a good arrangements with our friends in England and wales and a good relationship with our friends in Europe.
If and once we leave the UK let the people decide in a vote for Scotland to leave the EU.

Fionn1952

dublinjock wrote: »

Fionn1952 wrote: »

To be frank, whether I accept your view or like your view is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether your view is fact based or an emotion based gut feeling.

I'd ask precisely where you see the democratic deficit in the EU, and what makes you think it's going to get more powers?

What part of being in the EU has personally negatively impacted you, or what powers do you think the EU is going to have in the future that could negatively impact you?

As I'm sure you're already aware, due to the Irish constitution, any further pooling of sovereignty would require that the majority of Irish people agree to it in a referendum. The idea that the EU can just seize power from a country is paranoid and preposterous to be honest with you.

So you admit the EU does have powers, so again who gave them these powers? Who are they accountable to? How do we take these powers back?


Why would the EU seize power of any country? I know during the bail out here in Ireland the EU did not step in to help with the gambling debts of the bankers, so on that basis you would imagine they would never interfere in countries Ecomines??? So i dont see the EU seizing power.

No one has said the EU doesn't have powers, it'd be pretty useless and pointless if it didnt. The question is whether the pooled sovereignty of 28 (soon 27) countries is greater than the sum of their parts on the international stage. Evidence indicates that it is.

As to who gave them these powers, you did, I did, as did the other citizens of the member states of the European Union. Once more, I'd suggest further research into the structure of the EU, and how your perceived democratic deficit compares to, for example, the 'democracy' the United Kingdom is fighting so hard to 'reinstate'.

I'm really struggling to read your final paragraph, if you'd like to clarify it, I'll certainly address it.

dublinjock

Call me Al wrote: »

I'm wondering who you're talking to or where youre reading some of this propaganda? You're living in Ireland. Who is feeding you this stuff?

Have you researched the links given to you earlier explaining the structures within the EU and do you understand that the term President in the context of the EU is not what you seem to have believed it is?

Propaganda thats a totally unjust statement.
Yes i have read the links

Can you answer my simple questions without putting up links?


If you accuse peoples views of being Propaganda then your gonna end up with people not epressing there views. Is this what you want?

prawnsambo

dublinjock wrote: »

I am educating myself about the EU and to me if we are not careful this EU could and properly will become a monster.

Would you care to back this statement up with any actual facts?

dublinjock wrote: »

Im currently living in a country that has a common travel area with the UK. This nothing to do with the EU.

And this statement has nothing to do with what I posted. I have no idea why you would think this was relevant.

Enzokk

Seems like the Operation Yellowhammer papers released isn't the detailed reports and the government is once again playing their games.

https://twitter.com/Anna_Soubry/status/1171903953199611905?s=20

dublinjock

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

If it is the will of the (Scottish) people to leave the UK and join EU who are these enemies of the people who would ignore their will? Sexit means Sexit

If it the will to leave the UK yes if it the will of the Scottish people not to join so be it.

VinLieger

dublinjock wrote: »

I say quite well given a chance. Im sure we could have a good arrangements with our friends in England and wales and a good relationship with our friends in Europe.
If and once we leave the UK let the people decide in a vote for Scotland to leave the EU.

Okay i cannot put this any more politely but you do not have a single clue how international trade works.

Have a quick watch of this, its a personal favorite of mine to use when brexiteers try to boast about all the great trade deals they will do outside of the EU

dublinjock

Enzokk wrote: »

Try to clear it up for me, you don't want the EU to make your laws but you cannot cite the laws you disagree with that made you reach this conclusion, is that right?

Also I believe Scotland as an independent nation can thrive, but only if it has a close relationship or joins the EU. Scotland as an independent nation with a distant Brexit relationship with the EU will not survive for long. To get a close relationship with the EU for trade you need to buy into a lot of the EU rules and regulations and to ensure that when a dispute happens there is a court to sort it out you need to sign up to ECJ jurisdiction. That means EU laws made by the EU will still influence you.

Its not a question of disagreeing or agreeing with its laws it has made. Its a question of who made these laws who gave them the powers to make these laws. Was my local MP involved did he agree of disagree?


I think any country should be able to thrive and be able to have good relationships with the EU. I think Scotland could have a good relationship with the EU

BonnieSituation

dublinjock wrote: »

I am educating myself about the EU and to me if we are not careful this EU could and properly will become a monster.


Im currently living in a country that has a common travel area with the UK. This nothing to do with the EU.

You can't be serious with this rhetoric.

We're thankfully beyond this nonsense in this country.

But please stop. We get it, you misunderstand what the EU is or its role.

For 2 days you've repeated the same rubbish despite people (patiently) engaging with you.

It would suit those of us who know better to continue the serious discussion at our normal level of discourse. This is painful to read.

lawred2

dublinjock wrote: »

I am educating myself about the EU and to me if we are not careful this EU could and properly will become a monster.

which bits that you've learned (and from where) led you to that conclusion?

prawnsambo

dublinjock wrote: »

Its not a question of disagreeing or agreeing with its laws it has made. Its a question of who made these laws who gave them the powers to make these laws. Was my local MP involved did he agree of disagree?

Everybody can be involved in EU directives or 'laws'. Not just MPs. If you take the trouble to follow one through from start to finish, you can register your concerns, advice and input. Proposed directives are published on the EU websites, the websites of the concerned departments of EU member states and consultation and feedback is encouraged. Something I have done myself.

dublinjock

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Mod: Leaving all the hyperbole out of it, there's little of substance to most of your posts - raise the bar please!

Ok i will not post on this thread anymore because the site believes there is little substance im my posts.

newport2

Enzokk wrote: »

Seems like the Operation Yellowhammer papers released isn't the detailed reports and the government is once again playing their games.

https://twitter.com/Anna_Soubry/status/1171903953199611905?s=20

It's no coincidence that Yellowhammer is an anagram of Orwell Mayhem.
A nice twist provided by a crossword doing civil servant perhaps?

BonnieSituation

Enzokk wrote: »

Seems like the Operation Yellowhammer papers released isn't the detailed reports and the government is once again playing their games.

https://twitter.com/Anna_Soubry/status/1171903953199611905?s=20

We all knew they were crap yesterday and now we have this confirmation.

This is gonna be a good day.

Zubeneschamali

Enzokk wrote: »

Seems like the Operation Yellowhammer papers released isn't the detailed reports and the government is once again playing their games.

When the short summary they released yesterday was leaked to the press previously it was dated August 1st and subtitled Base Scenario.

Yesterdays release was dated 2nd August and subtitled Worst Case Scenario. They doctored even this summary before releasing it.

Edit: And of course, when it was leaked the Government claimed it was outdated, but when forced to they released a version dated one day later and otherwise unchanged. Liars.

Daemonic

dublinjock wrote: »

Its not a question of disagreeing or agreeing with its laws it has made. Its a question of who made these laws who gave them the powers to make these laws. Was my local MP involved did he agree of disagree?

No, however your local MEP did. Expecting your MP to have input is similar to expecting your local councilor to have direct input to decisions of the national parliament.

Call me Al

dublinjock wrote: »

Propaganda thats a totally unjust statement.
Yes i have read the links

Can you answer my simple questions without putting up links?


If you accuse peoples views of being Propaganda then your gonna end up with people not epressing there views. Is this what you want?

I haven't put up any links so I'm unsure what you mean. The links I'm referring to are those of the posters last night who went to great lengths to clarify incorrect facts you had wrt the EU, its structures, and its democratic systems.

I'm accusing large tracts of the UK media of regurgitating propaganda they've been dripfed over decades. People seem to choose to swallow it whole without asking critical questions of this (good and bad), and choose not to see the huge benefits that have evolved as a direct result of their country's EU membership.
So I'm wondering where you're reading this stuff. Feel free to answer or not as you choose.

FYI The Scottish courts ruled prorogation illegal and essentially stated that Johnson lied to the Queen, and last night the British government released the Yellowhamner report, ... (a report that's full of facts - frightening facts for many I'm sure). Two EXTREMELY serious events.
The Daily Mails front page today?
UKs Cancer Care Shame
The Yellowhammer report or Scottish ruling don't even get a mention.

ETA the Sun and The Express aren't any better.

Iderown

One paragraph (energy supply and NI related) caught my attention:

5. Demand for energy will be met and there will be no disruption to electricity or gas interconnectors. In NI there will be not be immediate disruption to electricity supply on Day 1. A rapid SEM split could occur months or years after EU Exit. ...

It looks like edit/delete options were left in the paragraph for all now to see!

SeaBreezes

darem93 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Jack_Blanchard_/status/1172015270589870081

The right wing media are now trying to find dirt on the Scottish judges who made the ruling yesterday. One of them 'likes France' and the other 'likes jazz and thinks Brexit is going to be difficult'. It's would be laughable if it wasn't so worrying.

Meanwhile Boris LIED to the QUEEN.all over the Mirror. cause the alternative would be the queen protecting her offshore Cayman accounts.. so sorry Boris, the jig is up and your under the bus...

I wonder if Boris saw this coming..
After his talks with the EU he said 'The EU now see the shape of our problem'
Boris laid it out the plan of his paymasters..

He mentioned 'I would rather be dead in a ditch' than not leave the EU.. death threats?

And Leo's 'we will be the Athena to your Hercules' .. we will save you from yourselves.. .. and Boris winces.. EU promising to help but at a cost to Boris career?

Or am I reading WAY WAY too much into it all?