The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

Patser

Every time someone rolls out the whole 'Split Dublin' debate, I ask why? Who'll benefit.

Ok Dublin 1 might compete vs Dublin 2 - or Kerry or Tyrone but if you think splitting Dublin suddenly means Meath or Kildare - or Laois, Louth any other Leinster suddenly have a chance in the All Ireland, you'd be mad. You could have Dublin split in 8 and Wicklow would struggle to win Leinster.

So If it's suddenly on the table to split Dublin - why not combine counties. Carlow will never win Leinster, but a Carlow, Wexford, Wicklow, Kilkenny team might unearth a great, balanced team. Throw Offaly, Laois, Longford together. Unite the Meaths!!!! Or Meath and Louth, Kildare Westmeath.

Similarly in football, Tipp and Waterford vs Clare Limerick. Sligo Leitrim? Antrim and Down?

If its ok to split Dublin, then its ok to combine. If people are going to say Dublin's dominance means poor Carlow will never win, they can't seriously think that a split Dublin sees Carlow suddenly a powerhouse - especially if its related to population. That just makes combined teams more logical.

It goes against every grain of pride in the county, every bit of tradition the GAA has built up, but sure if its ok to tear all that up just to split Dublin, then Unite the Meaths I say.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079490#Comment_122079490

I agree things like reducing funding, taking Dublin out of their home ground etc., while welcome, will be too little, too late to truly address the unfair combination of advantages Dublin have enjoyed for decades. Only a split can do that.

I don't agree with removing Dublin divisional sides from the Leinster Championship though (if it continues to exist)- I think they should be allowed to continue to compete in Leinster after a split. That's a fair compromise that I think both Dublin supporters and supporters from elsewhere in Leinster should be able to get behind: Dublin are split but the new Dublin divisional sides continue to compete in the Leinster.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080031#Comment_122080031

This is an easy one to answer- everyone will benefit. Every single county that takes part in the All-Ireland competition, from Leitrim right up to Dublin, benefits from a split in Dublin. The benefits may differ a little from one county to the next, but there are real and clear benefits to all counties.

This is because Dublin competing off their combination of unfair advantages (population, funding, playing at home etc.) is doing terrible damage to the prestige, integrity and fairness of Gaelic Games competitions. By splitting them, dispersing their advantages across multiple teams, rather than one, the impact of these advantages is significantly reduced, and so by extension is the unfairness. This will increase participation and interest. All teams will benefit from playing in much fairer competitions- including Dublin.

Not splitting Dublin will have the opposite effect. The existing unfairness will continue to damage the competitions, and all counties competing in them. Interest, participation and attendances will continue to whither. Dublin cannot take any pride in their successes as it is obvious they have come unfairly. This is just a small number of the risks and problems that come from not splitting Dublin.

Absolutely voluntary amalgamations should be offered. But Dublin should be split on a mandatory basis, whether Dublin supporters want it or not (and this thread has indicated there would be a lot of opposition within Dublin, despite the clear benefits both to Dublin and beyond), due to the massive damage to the game that comes from keeping Dublin as a single entity. And this split would be for the good of the game.

dunnerc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080291#Comment_122080291

I disagree lets deal with the Kerry unique advantages first , split them in 2 , see how that goes then look at all the other problems in the GAA .

dunnerc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080322#Comment_122080322

Again every single County from Waterford right up to Kerry , benefits from a Kerry split , this is because Kerry competing off there combination of unfair advantages ,playing in a hurling province ,funding etc, has helped them win a ridiculous 84 Munster titles and 38 All Ireland titles .

Not splitting Kerry will lead to the unfairness to continue and further damage the competitions , and all Counties competing in them. Kerry can't take pride in there successes as its blatantly obvious they have come unfairly.

Amalgamations should definitely be looked at , but a Kerry split needs to be on a mandatory basis whether Kerry supporters want it or not . Lets stop this over a century of damage keeping Kerry as a single entity , and for the good of the game split Kerry now .

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080420#Comment_122080420

Maybe start a thread on that? You seem to repeatedly try to drag the discussion away from Dublin's unfair advantages on this one and just repeat things people say, changing a word or two. As you don't think there is anything to discuss from a "Dominance of Dublin GAA" perspective, this must be a fairly pointless discussion for you.

Not for me though. I'm happy to keep debating the reasons for Dublin's domination (unfair advantages in population, funding, playing at home), what we should do about addressing this unfairness (splitting Dublin) until the GAA takes the important steps necessary to rectify things.

dunnerc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080508#Comment_122080508

Maybe not ,im happy to keep debating the reasons for Kerry's domination and unfair advantages funding , playing in a hurling province for over a century etc ,to counter the anti Dublin nonsense you have been posting for over 12 years .

If you don't like my posting please use the ignore button

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080587#Comment_122080587

I haven't posted any anti-Dublin nonsense. I've nothing against Dublin at all. In fact, I want to help Dublin. I want players from Dublin to compete fairly for the All-Ireland, unlike at present, so they can take some real pride in any victories, unlike at present.

dunnerc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080603#Comment_122080603

Its plain for everyone to see what your about , you hide behind your keyboard pretending you are neutral for the guts of 12 years , when surprise surprise its discovered you are from Kerry. You want Dublin split to help your beloved Kerry get back to the top. Like you i want players from Kerry to compete fairly for the All-IRELAND, unlike at present , so they and there supporters take some real pride in any Victories . Don't forget there is an ignore button 😁

tritium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079490#Comment_122079490

I’m assuming they’d also need that level of investment to catch up with Kerry or any of the AI contenders

That is you ambition for your county right? To win an All Ireland? You’re not just happy out in Leinster? If so how do you propose to close the gap there?

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080701#Comment_122080701

I'm beginning to see the difference in mindsets here. You're partisan and only want what you think is best for Dublin (whether it is actually what is best or not is another matter, but let's leave that aside for now). You think everyone else does the same. You approach problems facing the GAA via that angle.

Whereas I and others want what is best for the game as a whole. It's not about ensuring one county wins the All-Ireland. So while I can't speak for RoyalCelt, I can say that what I want is a level playing field- I don't mind who wins, as long as it is a fair competition, unlike at present. That's my ambition- increased prestige, integrity and fairness in Gaelic Games and equitable competitions for all, not just Dublin alone being uniquely unfairly advantaged.

So to answer your questions, the main thing to do to improve the All-Ireland outside of Leinster is to split Dublin as the unfairness they benefit from is harming all parts of the competition. There can be other reforms- pooling funding, voluntary amalgamations, abolishing provincials etc. But splitting Dublin has to be the first step and is easily the most important one.

dunnerc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080780#Comment_122080780

What a load of nonsense ,you want what's best for Kerry , you don't want a level playing field you want to give Kerry an even bigger advantage than they have had for over a century , Kerry need to be split to increase prestige, integrity and fairness in Gaelic games and clearly this has to be the first step .

Patser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080603#Comment_122080603

There is nothing unfair in the All Ireland. Dublin have been going through a bit of a golden spell recently, but the vast majority of their wins in the last rounds have been in incredibly tight, very competitively fought games.

Dublin have not been 'dominant' in an All Ireland sense. Provincially they have, but so have Kerry, Connaught has 3 teams that will compete with each other on their day, and Ulster is just epic. In fact Ulster is the outlier in terms of competitiveness, and no amount of messing with Dublin, Kerry or Mayo will change that.

Leinster have to sort out their own mess. Start getting funding out of Dublin and into other counties. At a provincial level look at what Dublin have behind the scenes and put it in place in the other counties. Splitting Dublin will just lead to a period of Kerry dominance - as suddenly 2 Dublin teams batter each other in Leinster, Mayo, Galway and Roscommon take lumps from each other, and Ulster as is normal, turn into the Battle of the Somme with only a wounded victor emerging.

Dublin and Kerry currently benefit immensely from this set up, as they can cruise through provinicials. Spiltting Dublin, just lets Kerry gain an extra advantage.

And it's a lazy response. Hobble the winners, as opposed to boost and improve the competition. A split Dublin does not benefit others in any meaningful way. Syphoning investment away from Dublin, and Kerry, and Mayo (and Limerick in hurling) to rase others does. Put in the personal trainers, nutritionists, facilities. Give the provincial councils more power to distribute this, rather than each county competing with 'glamour' counties like Dublin and Kerry rake in sponsorship etc.

dunnerc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080964#Comment_122080964

Excellent fair post Patser .

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079882#Comment_122079882

Weve been through all that.

Dublin is not going to split, end of. You can call for it to be split, it wont be so its a redundant debate. If you want to continue making a redundant argument for something that will never happen, then so be it. You might as well call for the wind to stop blowing.

The Leinster Championship is clearly broken - the cleanest thing here in my view is for Dublin to be taken out of it and given a pass into the all Ireland QF stage or whatever.

It would give other Leinster teams something to play for, and would put the Leinster championship on a level playing field with the other provincials.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080964#Comment_122080964

Unfortunately, this just isn't true. There's a massive unfairness at the heart of the All-Ireland. Which is that Dublin alone are uniquely unfairly advantaged over all other counties. They have a enormous population advantage over everyone else, in a sport where transfers are exceedingly rare. The population difference between them and the second largest county is larger than the gap between the second largest county and the smallest. Dublin have received massive amounts of funding in recent decades- from the GAA, their sponsors and the Irish government. By any conceivable metric, whether per head of population, per registered player etc., Dublin have received far, far more than any other county. (This ignores the fact that per capita is not even a good metric for Dublin as it just compounds their population advantage!). Dublin play most games, including all finals and semi-finals in their home stadium. This again is unique to them.

Any of of these unfair advantages by itself would be a problem, but combine them all together, make the scale enormous, perpuate that system for decades and we see the GAA has created a massive issue by uniquely favouring Dublin. It's simply not a level playing field anymore. But if we split Dublin, it disperses these advantages, and makes things far fairer, for all counties. So splitting Dublin helps all counties, not just their current competitiors.

It's not a golden era. People said 10 years ago when Connolly, Bernard Brogan etc left, Dublin would be fade away. This has turned out to be false, as predicted. I agree provincials have gone downhill, but Leinster is by far and away the least competitive now- it really is a shambles. Far less competitive than Munster.

I agree with your points about pooling and distributing money, and I think that is an important step to take after Dublin are split.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080975#Comment_122080975

Have a read of my response, I refuted it easily and effectively.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122081016#Comment_122081016

But tinkering with provincials, giving Dublin a bye, does nothing to address their unfair advantages in population, funding, playing at home etc. Splitting them does. I agree there is no momentum for a split at present but I do think we've discussed all the other options for rectifying the current in gaelic games and it appears there really is no better option than just splitting Dublin.

flasher0030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122081016#Comment_122081016

Ha ha. That has to be the funniest post of the day. Instead of trying to sort out a way to stabilise the dominance of Dublin, you suggest that lets just jump Dublin straight through to the quarter finals. Lets give them 3 matches to win an Ireland, whilst the other teams are slogging away for months, building up fatigue and injuries along the way. And then meet a fresh injury free Dublin in July for the quarter final. Dublin can push to win t he league every year, take two months off post league final, and then time their stamina training to perfection to tackle the 3 games needed to bring Sam back again.

You really have not thought that suggestion through Tombo.

dunnerc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122081074#Comment_122081074

Unfortunately , this is also not true , Kerry are also unfairly advantaged over all other Counties, they have an enormous advantage playing out of a Hurling province for over a century, 84 ridiculous handy Munster titles and 38 All Ireland titles shows this , it never was a level playing field and so its with a heavy heart i say Kerry have to be split .

dunnerc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122081081#Comment_122081081

Eh you did nothing of the sort , you have been shown up on here time and time again to post nonsense

dunnerc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122081089#Comment_122081089

Kerry as has been discussed by plenty on here need to be split first , lets see how that goes for a few years and if needed ,other splits /amalgamations can be looked at .

dunnerc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122081255#Comment_122081255

Exactly, this is what Kerry have been able to avoid for over a century, meeting Counties fatigued and with plenty of injuries , while they sleep walked out of a Hurling province fresh and injury free .

Patser

What is a quicker, cleaner and fairer solution all round is to completely redo the Championship set up.

Make the O'Byrne Cup, Sigurdson etc - effectively the Provincial Championship. Have it as a season opener, let everyone get involved as normal, let the Ulster teams kill each other to be Ulster Champions and the pride in that. Let Kerry, Dublin claim 25th ttile in a row etc. Hold it in March etc.

Get rid of league - but instead after a little lull to allow Ulster lads fix themselves up - have the big Open Draw Championship a lot have been craving. 4 groups of 8 - 2 from each of the old Div 1,2,3 and 4 league set up. Then suddenly every team gets 7 matches, no-one gets walk in park, Top 4 of each group go into All Ireland last 16 straight knock out 1st vs 4th, 2nd vs 3rd. Similarly bottom 4 go into Tailteann - same draw set up.

How you finish each year, decides the pot you go into next year.

That get's rid of the easy run/hard run Leinster, Munster vs Ulster have.

In mean time again, share out resources better. Get the provincial councils to take back power and work on leveling up all their provincial teams, not letting certain teams get all the cream

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122081255#Comment_122081255

Yes I have.

Dublin wont be split. If you think it will be, or might be, then you havent thought it through.

Or more pertinently, you are arguing for the sake of arguing when you know perfectly well it wont be split.

You think its a some big advantage to put Dublin straight through to QF? Really? When they've won 500 leinsters in a row? Are you thinking this through?

Here's the thing - Dublin wont be split. Its not an option. Therefore the only relevant question is - what options might actually work. This is one.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122081089#Comment_122081089

But it wont be split. So thats not an option. Why - because quite simply Dublin wont do it, and the GAA cant make them do it even if they wanted to.

I think its more likely that Dublin just doesnt participate at all. Thats a far more viable option.

tom23

I’d say split dublin - definitely. Create two savage teams instead of 1. Go four even better. Might be set back a few years. But watch as they get stronger. So 1 dublin team loose it’s ok, we have three more. I’m all for it.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122081431#Comment_122081431

That's not quicker, it's not cleaner and it definitely isn't fairer! It does nothing to address Dublin's unique and unfair combination of advantages in population, funding and playing at home. Splitting Dublin does address this. You seem to be opposed to splitting Dublin for some reason, despite the clear benefits to all counties. But any reforms to the game that don't involve this crucial first step are doomed to failure as they don't address the main issue in Gaelic Games i.e. Dublin competing off of a platform of unfair advantages. So while splitting Dublin doesn't have to be the only or last reform, it certainly has to be the first one!

I don't agree with abolishing the league and think your proposal would have too many games and too many mismatches in quality of teams anyway. I agree with your proposal to share out resources- this would be an important reform, after Dublin are split.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122081575#Comment_122081575

The GAA could force them if they wanted to. It'd be difficult, but doable. Without a split, Gaelic Games will whither away and we'll have All-Ireland finals more poorly attended than the Leinster semi-finals last weekend! We surely don't want that to happen. So any reform that doesn't involve a split of Dublin first really is pointless- it's the biggest issue in the GAA.

I don't like the idea of no Dublin players having the chance to compete for Leinster/Sam Maguire. If they can do it via divisional sides on a level playing field, I think this is a fair compromise.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122081633#Comment_122081633

The GAA cant force them to if they refuse to do it, which they would. The GAA isnt a Court of Law, cant send the Gardai in to force this. Its a sporting organisation.

Going back to an earlier point - Gaelic Games would far from wither away.

Hurling wont be affected, nor will club football, nor will camogie, nor will LGFA, nor will colleges, nor will underage games, nor will handball nor rounders.

There were probably 500 GAA games on in Dublin last weekend (Feile finals included). The Dublin - Offaly game was just one of them.