The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

MayoAreMagic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117837422#Comment_117837422

Again, taking your views on life from wikipedia says more about yourself than anything else.

Any reasonable person can understand why there is an asterix beside it. It follows all reasonable logic and cannot be seriously denied.

In 20 years time, when the funding debacle pops up on reeling in the years, I would hazard a guess that they will pat gilroy's interview where he states that it is akin to racism and that all other counties should instead join up, displayed in the same way Pauric Flynn's interview is displayed today.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117838512#Comment_117838512

Taking my views from Wikipedia is far better than being so bitter and prejudiced that not a single internet reference can corroborate your "asterisk".

dunnerc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117838512#Comment_117838512

Funny that you use the term any reasonable person . rules you out in my opinion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117837068#Comment_117837068

To be fair by that logic the only ones that say that funding was not the major cause of the success are Dublin fans

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117823675#Comment_117823675

You are seeing the benefit of funding in meath. The minors would never have won the all Ireland without it. Now When's the likes of wicklow and westmeath going to get better funding or meath to get funding on the level of Dublin. Time for the playing field to be evened.

tritium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117895632#Comment_117895632

You do realise , as has been pointed out here, that the rest of Leinster gets more games development funding per child under 14 than dublin does? That’s been the case for quite a while now.

Enquiring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117897086#Comment_117897086

You wouldn't be trying to claim that counties having extra coaches has anything to do with increased success now would you? :D

tritium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117900579#Comment_117900579

seriously, why do you keep trying to bait an argument that no one is making?

this is simple, if you have a county where limited numbers play the sport or interest is low and you create interest and get people playing and teach them the skills then its kind of a no brainer that they'll do better. Not every county has the deep GAA roots to allow the game to just look after itself. Its not a surprise that counties like Meath and Offaly benefitted from having games development funding allocated and that we're seeing this in their minors after a few years. A relatively stagnant period will leave a vacuum where the game needs developing, and its right to develop the game to bring that on. Its also not a surprise that the game grew in Dublin in the same way when the effort was made to bring in kids and give them the skills.

What that isn't however is a funding scheme for some sort of professional setup as certain posters imply. Remarkably, Dublin players aren't paid to play, on the AIG payroll or anything else. They don't get a gold plated limousine to games or have michelin star chefs on the side-line to feed them at half time. They don't have personal coaches to work with them in the window when they're not working in the gym to perfect their robot like athleticism to dash the hopes of all the skilful lads from other counties. Games development funding is strictly separate to intercounty funding - in fact, as has been shown, that was a key element of the Leinster setting up this approach, since teams had managed historically to ahem reallocate funds. And we know that a great many counties have been doing the dog on their intercounty funding. Remarkably only Dublin get criticised for it however.

Dublin benefited from a remarkable generation of players. Its been pointed out to you already that the age profile of that group meant the couldn't have been the product of the Dublin scheme, but to be honest you have no interest in inconvenient details that don't suit the narrative. Those players will be talked out with the same hushed reverence as the other great teams long after the bitter sniping and begrudgery has been hushed. You talk about the Dublin ladies to try to bolster your argument but neglect to acknowledge how long they were knocking on the door against an awesome Cork side that could teach any team a bit about dominance. We saw this year that there is in fact no conveyor belt and that, with a few key players stepping away Dublin look far less daunting. But we will have a generation of kids who won't be lost to the game, and maybe some of them will be the next greats to wear a blue jersey. However the woe filled posts about how Dublin were going to do 10-15-20 in a row have been proved to be wildly off the mark- even the greatest team cant beat time. That said, Leinster, on the back of lessons learned in the Dublin scheme is beginning to look quite competitive. More importantly, its looking like all boats have risen rather than beggaring their neighbour - instead of a cat fight in Leinster and then being woefully short of a few counties when the race for Sam heats up. In spite of the comments of certain ex players this has been done by using games development funding in the rest of Leinster- and at a significantly higher level than in Dublin! It would be lovely if certain other provincial councils could be as forward looking........

Enquiring

So you agree that increasing the number of professional coaches increases standards. No need for the long winded post. It took you and others a long time to admit to it but you've got there eventually.

We see it so clearly with Limerick, Offaly, Meath, Kildare etc the boost in funding has made a huge difference. There's a Meath fan above openly admitting to it. It's not so difficult really is it? Now imagine being the only county to get the boost in funding and increase in coaches. Imagine that lasted for nearly two decades.

That's what happened with Dublin GAA and we can see the results across the board. Mens football obviously with the influx of underage talent coming through the multi million euro system. But it was not just men's and women's football but all other areas. Of course you can't mention them but it's clear evidence of the impact that providing every senior club in Dublin their own professional coach has had. These coaches were there to develop standards of players but also coaching within the club as well as preparing players for development squads.

100+ titles were the obvious conclusion to this financial disparity.

tritium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117901726#Comment_117901726

um, you seem to be missing the point here. What exactly do you think the purpose of games DEVELOPMENT funding is? its to the develop the game. If you didn't see a return you'd be wondering why you bothered tbh. In Dublin's case that return is a group of kids who got to play the game when the might otherwise have been lost to the GAA. I suspect we saw similar with Meath and Offaly. After several years of dedication and practice some of those kids will eventually pull on their county jersey in all likelihood, some will be very good and talented, some will never play more than for the craic but they'll get a lot out of the experience in terms of their development as people- Thats the thing when you give opportunities, people make different things of them. We're seeing that with the Offaly and Meath kids now, and Dublin has also seen some young players come through who might otherwise be lost. That's over and beyond their current golden generation, who cant in any realistic way be put down to funding - the timeline simply doesn't work for too many of them, one of the many things you cant reconcile with your argument.

Does that mean none of the Dublin team came through from the efforts to develop the game in Dubllin? God no! if it did the process would be fit for the scrapheap. But we saw this season that there's no conveyor belt of AIG branded robots. While a few talented kids might come through Ten in a row isn't a danger any time in this lifetime.

Was the funding unfair - well, only if you think that areas where the game needs development should be ignored. There is a mindset that says the top table should stay the same and the game should never change -I disagree. You asked why Cork didn't get massive development funding, well they were Hurling finalists or winners in 03, 04, 05, 06 ad 13 and football finalists or winners in 07, 09 and 10. Their ladies team was also dominating, winning in 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 - I think its fair to say the game was already in relatively rude health, with structures that appeared to be working pretty well. Perhaps getting kids actually playing the game was maybe less of an issue there when they already had successful role models? Is that saying AI success a fair way to measure the impact of development funding - no but that's not what I'm doing here.

I mean you keep doing the smart alec gotcha stuff like in your responses here, but in reality you lost the argument long ago. You seem to be one of a small group who don't want the game to develop, who'd rather knock down teams who get above their station. Coaching kids is a good thing. Building structures is a good thing. The fact that the Leinster council stopped just letting counties piss away development money on short term inter county goals is a good thing. As a Dub, I'll say that the fact that more is spent now per child on the rest of Leinster than Dublin is a good thing, because it needed to be to raise all boats. In fact the only people who should be worried by it are the other provinces who haven't had the foresight of the Leinster council. I'm sure if Meath or Offaly win an All Ireland we'll have the same whining from certain quarters that the funding is so unfair, and much of that will be from supporters who are more than happy to beggar their neighbour once they're team keeps handing out hidings. The idea that the GAA was an egalitarian paradise before Dublin came along is nonsense, that been dismissed time and again, but some folks would still yearn for those old days while preaching about the good of the game.

ArielAtom

What amuses me in this thread is that the main poster was at very similar craic in the Rugby thread having a go at Irish rugby, before being shown the door, he then decided that Dublin was his next target. I commend the kids who came up with this thread. It keeps all the rankings in one area.

Enquiring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117905361#Comment_117905361

Again, I'm not sure why you made such a long post that says absolutely nothing. The funding argument is finished. It's an established fact that the millions of euros dramatically changed standards all across Dublin GAA. Dublin county board officials even admit to it. Its main focus was on elite level competitions and it worked. The additional evidence of increased funding working elsewhere puts a full stop to the conversation. Dublin won over 100+ titles off the back of huge financial disparity. That's a cold, hard, fact.

That doesn't mean that there won't be those like yourself who will never accept that fact. But let's remember, you and others like you are coming from a position of knowing very little about the actual details of the financial disparity. You didnt know how much Dublin received, what year the scheme began, who drew up the scheme, what the money paid for, the role of the coaches, the structures put in place and so on. I've provided you with all this information. But despite not knowing all the facts, you had already made your mind up that it had nothing to do with money. No amount of evidence was going to change your mind. But just because you don't want it to be true isn't a defence of the scandal.

If you want to even call the defence you put up as an argument, it's been so soundly destroyed that you have to go scurrying off at the sign of even a slightly tricky question and you also have been caught out trying to fiddle the numbers which you're still using! You can't explain why Cork with about the same number of teams and players have had access to far less funding. Or why every county apart from Dublin received in and around the same level of funding. Or you can't even mention the titles won at underage level in football and hurling, the huge increase in success in club football and hurling etc. Winning titles that have never been achieved previously.

Coaching and development is a great thing. It is only some Dublin fans who argue that they deserved it above all others. That is wrong. It should have been spread to every county 2 decades ago. But because it wasn't, a cloud will remain over the titles won by Dublin in this time. We must now spread the funding to enable every county to compete fairly, we should keep the same level of funding in Dublin to be spread amongst the 4 established counties, we need to pool sponsorship and put a cap on spending. This is what fairness looks like. Some Dublin fans and some from other counties will throw their toys out of the pram but for the health and future of our games, we must take these radical steps.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117913224#Comment_117913224

This notion that a cloud will remain over Dublin success is just nonsense.

Nobody remembers that Kerry only had to win three games one year to win an All-Ireland during their four-in-a-row.

Enquiring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117918460#Comment_117918460

You want to ignore all other areas apart from men's senior football. That's because looking into other areas destroys any of these deflection arguments, one off team arguments and so on. The cloud hangs over all areas of Dublin GAA and the table below shows why. Millions upon millions of euros were pumped into Dublin GAA from 2002 onwards, look at the results of that:

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920614#Comment_117920614

If you allow for just two factors - the greatest football team ever during that period, and a general upsurge in hurling. then there is little that is statistically significant about those numbers.

Enquiring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117921113#Comment_117921113

If you take away mens senior football and all hurling titles, then between 1982 and 2001, all other areas returned 18 titles. Between 2002 and 2021, all other areas returned 44 titles. So you failed at that attempt.

Also, the upturn in mens senior football came off the back of the incredible improvement at underage level. Dublin never won an u20/21 title prior to the funding. It was the players who came through the multi million euro system who brought success to Dublin seniors.

Then I'm not sure why you want to ignore the hurling improvements? Maybe because it's another nail in the coffin of your argument? Unprecedented success at underage level gave Dublin senior hurlers their only ever provincial and national titles with mostly their own players. A Dublin club never won an All Ireland, it would have been unthinkable pre funding. Two followed post millions.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117921201#Comment_117921201

When the GOAT comes through underage, you will get correlating increases in underage wins just before. Your analysis fails again.

Dublin haven't won minor since 2012 I think and under-20/21 since 2017, which fits my analysis.

This has been done to death many times before with you.

Enquiring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117921233#Comment_117921233

Was the goat playing u20 in 2003, 2010, 2012, 2014 and 2017? :D

Dublin didn't win any u20 All Ireland in football pre funding. They've won 5 post funding. This fits in with my analysis. Same with the Dublin senior women's football team, no titles pre funding, 5 since. No All Ireland in club hurling pre funding, 2 since. Dramatic increases across the board. This all fits in with my analysis. The huge increase in funding led to a huge increase in titles. It's plain to see. Dublin county board officials admit to it. I'm not sure why you're flapping about desperately trying to fiddle some numbers.

32 titles in the 19 years pre millions, 92 in the 19 years after. Stick a fork in it, this argument is done.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117921531#Comment_117921531

As I said, once you allow for the greatest football team of all time, and for a general upsurge in hurling, then the difference is not statistically significant.

Enquiring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922951#Comment_117922951

Well you can say that as often as you want but I've already proven that you are 100% wrong. Have a look:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117921201#Comment_117921201

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924551#Comment_117924551

You haven't proved anyone wrong. You hold an opinion that is different, but it is just an opinion.

Enquiring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924596#Comment_117924596

It's not an opinion. 18 titles in 19 years pre funding to 44 titles in the 19 years post funding. If my maths are correct, that's an increase of 144%. That is very significant. And overall, Dublin increased titles won by 188%.

I'm backing up my claims with facts to show that you are wrong. Like I've said, not wanting something to be true is not an argument.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924753#Comment_117924753

It is your opinion that those numbers are significant, it is my opinion that when taken in the context of the greatest team of all time, and the younger teams that led to that team, together with a long, long overdue rise in hurling, that the numbers are not statistically significant i.e. nothing more than normal variance. The return to normal of the underage teams over the last few years supports my hypothesis.

You have an opinion, I have an opinion, it is normal that opinions differ. Even when you claim to post facts, you have to caveat it with "if my maths are correct". Clearly, I believe that there other factors to take into account that mean your maths is wrong. It is not a simple count my titles sort of thing.

Enquiring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924917#Comment_117924917

You're trying to argue that an increase of 144% is not significant. That's just on the areas you want to include. An overall increase of 188% is not significant? 😀 Sorry to laugh but I find this squirming highly amusing.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924753#Comment_117924753

Are you saying that funding alone has led to this? That nothing else changed, this is the principal factor?

For me - funding follows player population. I might be wrong, but I am guessing that underage player population has possible trebled or quadrupled in the past 30 years in Dublin.

In my own club, I see the adult players and they say there was one or two teams at underage level when they were kids. Thats for the boys. There would have been no girls team.

Now there would be 6 teams at each underage year for both boys and girls.

I see lads like you talking about funding, as if thats the only thing thats changed. I see it differently, that the player numbers in Dublin have exploded and that the funding has to follow that, and it would be wrong if it didnt.

I am not aware that other counties have seen such growth- I stand to be corrected on that one.

Enquiring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948401#Comment_117948401

It's hard to keep up with all the ridiculous defences. Some were saying that the millions were handed to Dublin because playing numbers were so low. You're saying the millions were handed over because the player numbers were so high.

If the defenders of the financial disparity can't even agree on the story, it just shows you how weak the defense is.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949507#Comment_117949507

The defense has been excellent, right through the 6 in a row ;)

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949507#Comment_117949507

You seem more keen on sneering at people than debating.

I have made facts based argument; if you have an issue with facts being used in a debate then the debate is not for me. Thanks.

Enquiring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949687#Comment_117949687

Basically you have no argument to defend the funding so you've decided to take the 5 year olds method of debating. Sticking your fingers in your ears and your tongue out. :D

Enquiring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949931#Comment_117949931

The funding came first, the coaches who were employed to attract players to their local clubs came first. The increase in playing numbers came after. These are the facts.