The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

ShyMets

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

And you made the opposing allegation...
You are also the guy hung up of proof, and the burden of proof, so by all means, practice it.

Personally, I recognise that what you are referencing is relating to a court of law, which this is not, just as I am not on trial here either. I realise also, that reams of proof has been offered as to why dublin are successful now, mainly due to financial doping, and yet people still refuse to accept it, so proof on here means little.
However, you seem to be a big believer in it, so by all means, get to it.

To my mind, if you truly believe that dublin's staff dont get paid, then you are a very naive person

I think its fair to say that not all of Dublin's coaches are doing it out of a love for Dublin GAA and financial renumeration is taking place, be it expenses or salary.

But this is happening in just about every county team.

So what exactly are we arguing about

Enquiring

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

You are obviously entitled to your overall opinion on the matter.

But also you shouldn't be allowed make up your own facts. You aren't proposing splitting Dublin up into 4 counties - you are proposing splitting Dublin up into 4 new regional teams with as yet undefined non-county borders.

Dublin as a gaa county ceases to exist. No-one in Dublin gets to play for their county again, they play for a new artificial regional construct. That's your plan.

There are already 4 county councils with boundaries set up. Dublin City Council, South Dublin County Council, Dún Laoghaire–Rathdown County Council and Fingal County Council. Here is an illustration of the boundaries:



So that is not an issue. You raise a point about playing for their county again and I suppose supporting their new county can be added to that.

I will admit, at the start, it will take a bit of time for this to really take off but once more parents and families see their local players getting the chance to compete at inter county level, there will be a major buy in from communities. Far more kids will get to compete at the top level at minor and u20. There also will be new local derbies created. Dún Laoghaire/Rathdown v South Dublin or Dublin City v Fingal would get the juices flowing as would games such as Fingal v Meath.

The 4 counties will have their own county boards obviously. With appropriate funding, they will be in a great position to tackle player participation rates in their area and take the fight directly with other sports at a local level. The opportunity to overhaul our structures would be another benefit of this. 14/15 counties in Leinster wouldn't be a goer so it could open up the possibility of having an open draw or other systems put in place.

Overall, it's a very exciting prospect and one with benefits for all.

Enquiring

ShyMets wrote: »

A plan it must be remembered which benefits only a handful of Counties.

And does nothing for the rest. But thats ok once Dublin aren't winning

I believe you've been told this but it would only be a part of the overall plan to make Gaelic Games fair and equitable sports again. We can't have one county with massive resources competing with counties living off scraps. That's why Dublin must be split but it's not just Dublin who are using financial power.

Other counties have access to funds not near to the level of Dublin but still far above others. Pooling of sponsorship and a cap on spending needs to be introduced. This will, of course, reduce the possibility of county boards running into financial difficulty but also make competition fairer.

On top of this, all counties should have officials appointed to oversee the promotion and development of our games. These will be paid officials and they will have tagets and standards to maintain. Under them will be a number of games development officers, an appropriate number for each county to cater for their population/club numbers or whether they need to pay more attention to hurling promotion or football promotion within the county. For example, football promotion might require more attention in Kilkenny or hurling may require the same in Kerry.

This move will help all counties compete and fulfil their potential, it will develop clubs all across the country, it would guarantee that the GAA would remain the number one sports organisation in this country for the short, medium and long term and it would make Gaelic Games fair and equitable once again.

ShyMets

Enquiring wrote: »

I believe you've been told this but it would only be a part of the overall plan to make Gaelic Games fair and equitable sports again. We can't have one county with massive resources competing with counties living off scraps. That's why Dublin must be split but it's not just Dublin who are using financial power.

Other counties have access to funds not near to the level of Dublin but still far above others. Pooling of sponsorship and a cap on spending needs to be introduced. This will, of course, reduce the possibility of county boards running into financial difficulty but also make competition fairer.

On top of this, all counties should have officials appointed to oversee the promotion and development of our games. These will be paid officials and they will have tagets and standards to maintain. Under them will be a number of games development officers, an appropriate number for each county to cater for their population/club numbers or whether they need to pay more attention to hurling promotion or football promotion within the county. For example, football promotion might require more attention in Kilkenny or hurling may require the same in Kerry.

This move will help all counties compete and fulfil their potential, it will develop clubs all across the country, it would guarantee that the GAA would remain the number one sports organisation in this country for the short, medium and long term and it would make Gaelic Games fair and equitable once again.

To be fair there's some good ideas in your post. But here's what niggles at me. Your plan starts with splitting Dublin. It highly unlikely the four will be winning All Ireland's straight away.

We'll see some of the other top teams winning Sam. Now call me a cynic but I suspect those counties will be happy with the status quo and wont want more any changes.

The only way I could see such a plan possibly working is if all changes are implemented at once. Which I think is unlikely.

Change is coming to the GAA but splitting Dublin isn't on the agenda yet.

ooter

The county of dublin being split in to 4 would die on its arse, people would have as much interest in going to see dublin city v fingal in the leinster championship as they would going to see ballymun v parnells for example in the club championship or ballymun v a leinster club outside of the capital.

MayoAreMagic

ShyMets wrote: »

I think its fair to say that not all of Dublin's coaches are doing it out of a love for Dublin GAA and financial renumeration is taking place, be it expenses or salary.

But this is happening in just about every county team.

So what exactly are we arguing about

You arent the person I was responding to.

I get what you say, but you probably have to delve into it to get the reality. Carlow paying a management team and dublin paying a management team sound the same, but get into the numbers and it isnt. It is a bit like arguing a hedge fund manager and a corner shop manager are the same because they are both managers. Dublin had 29 immediate staff named in the all ireland final program. That is more than one per player. Premier league teams dont even have that many people trekking around with their teams.

ShyMets

ooter wrote: »

The county of dublin being split in to 4 would die on its arse, people would have as much interest in going to see dublin city v fingal in the leinster championship as they would going to see ballymun v parnells for example in the club championship or ballymun v a leinster club outside of the capital.

I don't know. Go Dun Laoghaire Rathdown has a certain ring to it:)

feargale

ShyMets wrote: »

I don't know. Go Dun Laoghaire Rathdown has a certain ring to it:)

As well as hats and colours the street vendors would have to stock up on takeaway lobster thermidor and bottles of Lynch Bages.

What about "Go Belgard aka South Dublin aka Tallaght"?

dunnerc

Enquiring wrote: »

There are already 4 county councils with boundaries set up. Dublin City Council, South Dublin County Council, Dún Laoghaire–Rathdown County Council and Fingal County Council. Here is an illustration of the boundaries:



So that is not an issue. You raise a point about playing for their county again and I suppose supporting their new county can be added to that.

I will admit, at the start, it will take a bit of time for this to really take off but once more parents and families see their local players getting the chance to compete at inter county level, there will be a major buy in from communities. Far more kids will get to compete at the top level at minor and u20. There also will be new local derbies created. Dún Laoghaire/Rathdown v South Dublin or Dublin City v Fingal would get the juices flowing as would games such as Fingal v Meath.

The 4 counties will have their own county boards obviously. With appropriate funding, they will be in a great position to tackle player participation rates in their area and take the fight directly with other sports at a local level. The opportunity to overhaul our structures would be another benefit of this. 14/15 counties in Leinster wouldn't be a goer so it could open up the possibility of having an open draw or other systems put in place.

Overall, it's a very exciting prospect and one with benefits for all.

Overall , its a horrible prospect and only benefits 3/4 Counties and in my opinion will only happen if amalgamations happen as well

Enquiring

ShyMets wrote: »

To be fair there's some good ideas in your post. But here's what niggles at me. Your plan starts with splitting Dublin. It highly unlikely the four will be winning All Ireland's straight away.

We'll see some of the other top teams winning Sam. Now call me a cynic but I suspect those counties will be happy with the status quo and wont want more any changes.

The only way I could see such a plan possibly working is if all changes are implemented at once. Which I think is unlikely.

Change is coming to the GAA but splitting Dublin isn't on the agenda yet.

It's the only way it could work. The aim should be putting a stop to the professionalisation of our games. It has to be done all at once. Much is made of the fact that Limerick went to Dublin to have a look over the structures etc Clearly the most important lesson picked up from their travels was the fact that you need the finance to set up the structures.

For Limerick, they found a way of gaining that finance and worked on it from there. Other counties are pumping a lot of money in also but most are finding that it's not sustainable. For the huge majority of counties, balancing the books is their major concern. Our games can't continue with that kind of inequality.

There will be pushback from Dublin obviously but you'll see it in other counties too. Where will our games go if these financial issues are not tackled? What will it lead to? I don't think it's a road we should be travelling down and if the issues are not addressed soon, our games will never be the same.

MayoAreMagic

ooter wrote: »

The county of dublin being split in to 4 would die on its arse, people would have as much interest in going to see dublin city v fingal in the leinster championship as they would going to see ballymun v parnells for example in the club championship or ballymun v a leinster club outside of the capital.

Has it not occurred to you that the gaa as it stands is dying on its arse in every corner of the cou try bar dublin?

As for poor turnouts, well the rest of the country can manage decent turnouts with less than one tenth of the population. So they would still have over 2.5 times the average. If they cant get a decent crowd from that then it is their own issue. Maybe gaa isnt for them?

ArmaniJeanss

Enquiring wrote: »

There are already 4 county councils with boundaries set up. Dublin City Council, South Dublin County Council, Dún Laoghaire–Rathdown County Council and Fingal County Council. Here is an illustration of the boundaries:

*map*

So that is not an issue. You raise a point about playing for their county again and I suppose supporting their new county can be added to that.

I will admit, at the start, it will take a bit of time for this to really take off but once more parents and families see their local players getting the chance to compete at inter county level, there will be a major buy in from communities. Far more kids will get to compete at the top level at minor and u20. There also will be new local derbies created. Dún Laoghaire/Rathdown v South Dublin or Dublin City v Fingal would get the juices flowing as would games such as Fingal v Meath.

The 4 counties will have their own county boards obviously. With appropriate funding, they will be in a great position to tackle player participation rates in their area and take the fight directly with other sports at a local level. The opportunity to overhaul our structures would be another benefit of this. 14/15 counties in Leinster wouldn't be a goer so it could open up the possibility of having an open draw or other systems put in place.

Overall, it's a very exciting prospect and one with benefits for all.

That's pretty bizarre - I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that maybe you don't know the population figures. But why would you go to the trouble of splitting it 4 ways yet leave such a population imbalance such that one (City) has 2.5 times as many people as the others.
It just seems lazy and doesn't actually make any geographical sense - it's not as if people who live there feel any particular affinity for the Fingal or South County Dublin concepts.

ShyMets

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Has it not occurred to you that the gaa as it stands is dying on its arse in every corner of the cou try bar dublin?

As for poor turnouts, well the rest of the country can manage decent turnouts with less than one tenth of the population. So they would still have over 2.5 times the average. If they cant get a decent crowd from that then it is their own issue. Maybe gaa isnt for them?

I think the point they were making is that you would be creating 4 new teams that people would have no natural affinity for.

It would take time build that affinity and interest. Imagine Mayo was spilt North and South. You've grown up all your life supporting Mayo. Its reasonable to assume you might not have the same interest in following a North/South team

MayoAreMagic

ShyMets wrote: »

I think the point they were making is that you would be creating 4 new teams that people would have no natural affinity for.

It would take time build that affinity and interest. Imagine Mayo was spilt North and South. You've grown up all your life supporting Mayo. Its reasonable to assume you might not have the same interest in following a North/South team

I accept that but if mayo were in dublins position then i would also accept that it is completely logical as part of the bigger picture, and that in all likelihood, both my division of the county and the other one would probably be contesting finals within a few years anyway.
Like, in reality, when dublin took all that government money, they changed into something else. The dublin we knew died there and then and county dublin became dublin inc. The fans havent had an issue with supporting the new version of dublin, so it is a bit rich to argue the point of tradition now.

tritium

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Has it not occurred to you that the gaa as it stands is dying on its arse in every corner of the cou try bar dublin?

As for poor turnouts, well the rest of the country can manage decent turnouts with less than one tenth of the population. So they would still have over 2.5 times the average. If they cant get a decent crowd from that then it is their own issue. Maybe gaa isnt for them?

Ah sure we’ll split Mayo into five too. In a stroke we’ll solve the long round trips for any player in the county. Same for Kerry. They’ll all have a smaller player pool sure but that will mean little Leitrim will have a fair crack at things. Go Westport urban district 1 has a certain ring to it I think

Sounds alright yeah?

ShyMets

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I accept that but if mayo were in dublins position then i would also accept that it is completely logical as part of the bigger picture, and that in all likelihood, both my division of the county and the other one would probably be contesting finals within a few years anyway.
Like, in reality, when dublin took all that government money, they changed into something else. The dublin we knew died there and then and county dublin became dublin inc. The fans havent had an issue with supporting the new version of dublin, so it is a bit rich to argue the point of tradition now.

Whats this Dublin inc you speak off

MayoAreMagic

tritium wrote: »

Ah sure we’ll split Mayo into five too. In a stroke we’ll solve the long round trips for any player in the county. Same for Kerry. They’ll all have a smaller player pool sure but that will mean little Leitrim will have a fair crack at things. Go Westport urban district 1 has a certain ring to it I think

Sounds alright yeah?

The long round trips are the ones across the country, not the county. In a nutshell you have highlighted how ill-informed many in the capital are about gaa outside the capital.
The rest of the post, I cant take seriously

MayoAreMagic

ShyMets wrote: »

Whats this Dublin inc you speak off

Dublin post financial doping.

Previous to that, dublin could be respected. They were a genuine gaa county. Fair enough they hadnt won an all ireland in 10 years, but they werent far away. But in taking the handout, that nobody else was getting, they sold out.

It is a shame because I think they would have came good again and we could have had a real golden age of gaa in the last decade, with dublin, donegal, tyrone, mayo, galway, kerry, monaghan and possibly a few others contesting big games and sharing the titles. It would have been so much better than what we actually got.

ShyMets

Well folks I'm singing off. Going to celebrate what's left of New Years Eve.

Happy New Year. Look forward to renewing the battle tomorrow

Enquiring

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

That's pretty bizarre - I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that maybe you don't know the population figures. But why would you go to the trouble of splitting it 4 ways yet leave such a population imbalance such that one (City) has 2.5 times as many people as the others.
It just seems lazy and doesn't actually make any geographical sense - it's not as if people who live there feel any particular affinity for the Fingal or South County Dublin concepts.

I didn't draw the boundaries! They've been in existence since 1994. Here are the approximate populations:

Dublin city - About 545,000
Fingal - About 300,000
South Dublin 280,000
Dún Laoghaire/Rathdown - About 220,000

Now, as you say, Dublin city clearly has a far larger population but there are some socio and economic factors in play here. That is something the Dublin City county board will have to tackle and I think specifically targetting some areas would not only be beneficial for the GAA but it would be great for the areas involved.

Looking at it in a wider sense, each county clearly has the population to compete. Each one has a higher population than most of the counties in Ireland.

ooter

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Has it not occurred to you that the gaa as it stands is dying on its arse in every corner of the cou try bar dublin?

Counties from all 4 corners of the country have contested the last 3 all ireland finals.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Dublin post financial doping.

Previous to that, dublin could be respected. They were a genuine gaa county. Fair enough they hadnt won an all ireland in 10 years, but they werent far away. But in taking the handout, that nobody else was getting, they sold out.

They hadn't won a senior hurling all ireland in 68 years and still haven't won one despite the handout.

ArielAtom

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Dublin post financial doping.

Previous to that, dublin could be respected. They were a genuine gaa county. Fair enough they hadnt won an all ireland in 10 years, but they werent far away. But in taking the handout, that nobody else was getting, they sold out.

It is a shame because I think they would have came good again and we could have had a real golden age of gaa in the last decade, with dublin, donegal, tyrone, mayo, galway, kerry, monaghan and possibly a few others contesting big games and sharing the titles. It would have been so much better than what we actually got.

I’ve asked this before, it do you know the meaning of financial doping or are you just looking for likes???

ooter

Doping in sport is cheating and against the rules, dublin gaa have broken no rules.

feargale

What about Dublin hurling then?

MayoAreMagic

ooter wrote: »

Doping in sport is cheating and against the rules, dublin gaa have broken no rules.

It is actually administering substances in order to enhance sporting performance. In this case, that substance is public money.

But sure its the volunteers!
Fair enough, ye might pay back all that cash that coincided with all the trophies so...

Realt Dearg Sec

JeffKenna wrote: »

That's because Limerick destroyed the game bringing in football style tactics.

It's funny, I heard this same exact thing said about Kilkenny 14 years ago. Twas bull**** then as well. Look at any match from over ten years ago, the game is streets ahead of where it was then, and go back to the supposed golden era of the nineties and it's like Junior b stuff compared to the skill levels now.

ooter

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

It is actually administering substances in order to enhance sporting performance. In this case, that substance is public money.

But sure its the volunteers!
Fair enough, ye might pay back all that cash that coincided with all the trophies so...

If you can point me to where there was any illegality involved in the public money dublin received I'd really appreciate that?

JeffKenna

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

It's funny, I heard this same exact thing said about Kilkenny 14 years ago. Twas bull**** then as well. Look at any match from over ten years ago, the game is streets ahead of where it was then, and go back to the supposed golden era of the nineties and it's like Junior b stuff compared to the skill levels now.

My point was agreeing with that, the reference to Limerick was in relation to the tactics Limerick have brought in under Paul Kinnerk. Looking at the All Ireland final it's obvious there was a clear tactic for their forwards to foul at every opportunity in order to prevent any attack materialising and break up the flow of the game. If 50% of these fouls aren't called then straight away Limerick are gaining.

MayoAreMagic

ooter wrote: »

Counties from all 4 corners of the country have contested the last 3 all ireland finals.



They hadn't won a senior hurling all ireland in 68 years and still haven't won one despite the handout.

All against the same team, where they ended as two hidings, with one draw and then another hiding in the replay. That is a fairly laughable point in all honesty. I doubt anyone thinks that you actually believe it yourself, which underlines an issue at play here, a real lack of honesty on the part of some dubs regarding the situation, due to many having no interest in the gaa outside of dublin gaa.

Re the hurling, so basically, they have to win in every sport before you will accept there is an issue in any sport? How are they going in the handball? Again, painfully flawed logic.

Here is a question, would any self-respecting dublin fan not like to take on kerry on an even playing field and go and beat them? No handouts, no advantages, no excuses. Surely deep down that is something that has to nag at someone in that situation.

MayoAreMagic

dunnerc wrote: »

Playing with words , pure nonsense !

That is the definition of doping. I cant do much more for you if you are unable to grasp the concept.