The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

StupidLikeAFox

blanch152 wrote: »

I would be happy with a level playing field. Splitting Dublin and Kerry would be part of creating a level playing field.

I don't think splitting counties is the way to go personally. Would you be open to distributing the funds to some of the more weaker counties instead of focussing it on developing the talent in Dublin?

kilns

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

I don't think splitting counties is the way to go personally. Would you be open to distributing the funds to some of the more weaker counties instead of focussing it on developing the talent in Dublin?

what would be your criteria in distributing the funds? Lets say Leitrim who are the weakest. lets give them a million. Let give Mayo 50,000 considering they have reached a few All Irelands. Lets give Dublin nothing considering the current team are so strong. Let give Cork 250,000 considering they are poor at the moment. Lets give Galway 500,000 considering they are a basket case

blanch152

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

I don't think splitting counties is the way to go personally. Would you be open to distributing the funds to some of the more weaker counties instead of focussing it on developing the talent in Dublin?

The Games Development Funding in 2019 is more or less distributed on a per capita basis, with Dublin no longer the most heavily funded on a per capita basis, so job achieved.

As I pointed out numerous times, this money is directed at juvenile participation, and there has never been a causal link to senior inter-county success.

tritium

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

I don't think splitting counties is the way to go personally. Would you be open to distributing the funds to some of the more weaker counties instead of focussing it on developing the talent in Dublin?

I think most dublin posters on this thread have been open to a distribution of funds that helps weaker counties. However that would also inevitably mean other strong counties would also have to give up something. For example if we want to redistribute sponsorship to help weaker counties then Kerry receive a similar amount from Kerry Group as AIG give Dublin. We’d also need to ditch the nonsense that 250k “gifts” from wealthy benefactors to mayo are somehow “fundraising”, ie we’d need to be transparent about what counties get. There’s also a question with sponsorship of ensuring counties have an incentive to actually look for those deals.

In terms of games development I’d absolutely support funding for weaker counties. I think we need to ditch the notion though that every club big or small can have a coaching setup provided for them. Some sort of practical system to make sure that the resources are available, I don’t know how possibly x coaches for every Y members or per head of population. Maybe put a floor and ceiling in or use a two tier approach where more resources are segregated just for weaker counties. Just ideas, and as someone pointed out earlier, it needs a lot of work to make sure it’s actually used well.

The reality unfortunately is that the AI has never really been competitive. Leitrim or Carlow or London didn’t stop winning things because of dublin. We didn’t have four well competitive provinces before 2011. The GAA is basically built on imbalance. The question for those complaining about dublin is do they want a genuinely competitive game, like for example the NFL achieves in the states to a degree via drafts etc (not transferable, just to illustrate) or do they just want to go back to the old status quo where their counties significant advantages meant they were winning all the time? Is it about genuine fairness or is it about a few flat track bullies being upset because they’re no longer the biggest kid in the schoolyard?

Slattsy

JP's millions (possibly billions at this stage) into Limerick will need to be distributed fairly also...

gaffer91

blanch152 wrote: »

Kerry success has never come fairly. A provincial system weighted in their favour, sometimes having only three games to win an All-Ireland, are only two of the factors.

How will Waterford ever win a Munster Football Championship unless Kerry are split? Kerry have dominated the Championship for over a century to the extent that some of the counties just give up on football.

I would be happy with a level playing field. Splitting Dublin and Kerry would be part of creating a level playing field. Amalgamating other counties would be part of creating a level playing field.

Those who are just bitter, jealous and envious of Dublin success and have no interest in a level playing field are exposed whenever proposals like this are put on the table.

We had this exact conversation a few months back where you cited the provincial system and the fact Waterford are relatively unsuccessful compared to Kerry. What is the point in having the exact same argument again? You are still as wrong today as you were then.

You can argue the provinicals should be done away with- that's fine, Dublin will still have to be split. We haven't had a purely provincial system in almost 20 years I might add, complaining about a three game All Ireland in the 1970s is really clutching at straws.

You are trying to draw an absurd false equivalence between Kerry and Dublin. There is none. Dublin are unfairly favoured compared to every other county because of their population, financial and home pitch advantages. Once again, the important thing is the inputs into success, not just the success itself. Dublin have unfair advantages, Kerry don't. It's that simple really.

So it is only Dublin who need to be split. Voluntary amalgamations can be offered too. But Dublin will have to be split to help Gaelic games, voluntarily or involuntarily.

gaffer91

kilns wrote: »

Where does it stop though? Why arent Galway and Mayo split then so that Leitrim can compete fairly with them. Its a rabbit hole.

As things stand the county system is what is in place and it will always be unfair. In order to create a level playing field it would have to be dramatically overhauled

I already answered this in post 3675 in response to a similar question. To save me typing it out again, I've pasted the answer again below.

gaffer91 wrote: »

It is the combination of the duration, scale and nature of the advantages Dublin enjoy that mean they should be split.

Dublin are a massive outlier in funding and population. No-one else even comes close. The relative and absolute nature of the funding/ population differences between Mayo and Leitrim are much smaller than the differences between Dublin and every other county.

Dublin, and Dublin alone, is a unique county in terms of unfair population, funding and other advantages. Dublin, and Dublin alone, should be split.

Happyilylost

kilns wrote: »

what would be your criteria in distributing the funds? Lets say Leitrim who are the weakest. lets give them a million. Let give Mayo 50,000 considering they have reached a few All Irelands. Lets give Dublin nothing considering the current team are so strong. Let give Cork 250,000 considering they are poor at the moment. Lets give Galway 500,000 considering they are a basket case

That's Mr. Basket case to you sir.

kilns

gaffer91 wrote: »

I already answered this in post 3675 in response to a similar question. To save me typing it out again, I've pasted the answer again below.

Your answer will still not solve the inequality that the current inter county brings, its not just Dublin that has an advantage over other counties, they just happen to be the biggest. When was the last time Leitrim beat Mayo or Galway in a championship game? Why dont we give the Leitrims of this world a change in their province by bring Mayo and Galway into line with their population etc and then splitting Dublin into 10 or 20 pieces.

Splitting one county is not going to solve any issues long term its a knee jerk and short sighted reaction to a currently dominate team

gaffer91

kilns wrote: »

Your answer will still not solve the inequality that the current inter county brings, its not just Dublin that has an advantage over other counties, they just happen to be the biggest. When was the last time Leitrim beat Mayo or Galway in a championship game? Why dont we give the Leitrims of this world a change in their province by bring Mayo and Galway into line with their population etc and then splitting Dublin into 10 or 20 pieces.

Splitting one county is not going to solve any issues long term its a knee jerk and short sighted reaction to a currently dominate team

Did you even read the post? It's not just the population difference, it's the sheer scale of it, combined with the duration and scale of other advantages, including funding. So it's the combination of the advantages, the sheer scale of them compared to every other difference and the duration they have had these advantages for, that mean Dublin should be split. Differences between other counties don't even come close to the differences between Dublin and everyone else- especially when all these advantages for Dublin are looked at in their totality.

I find it curious that Leitrim are cited so often, a county that are the other statistical outlier, albeit in the opposite direction to Dublin. Regardless, splitting Dublin will help Leitrim by ensuring there is still a viable All-Ireland competition in the future.

So splitting Dublin will solve a lot of issues.

tritium

gaffer91 wrote: »

We had this exact conversation a few months back where you cited the provincial system and the fact Waterford are relatively unsuccessful compared to Kerry. What is the point in having the exact same argument again? You are still as wrong today as you were then.

You can argue the provinicals should be done away with- that's fine, Dublin will still have to be split. We haven't had a purely provincial system in almost 20 years I might add, complaining about a three game All Ireland in the 1970s is really clutching at straws.

You are trying to draw an absurd false equivalence between Kerry and Dublin. There is none. Dublin are unfairly favoured compared to every other county because of their population, financial and home pitch advantages. Once again, the important thing is the inputs into success, not just the success itself. Dublin have unfair advantages, Kerry don't. It's that simple really.

So it is only Dublin who need to be split. Voluntary amalgamations can be offered too. But Dublin will have to be split to help Gaelic games, voluntarily or involuntarily.

You can wear those rose tinted glasses all you like but the reality is the evidence of the last 93 pages doesn’t support your position. You may want to tell yourself that Kerry won all those trophies on the back of pure skill alone on a level playing field but the reality is a long history of administrative help, strong sponsorship and financial backing and the odd downright unfair cash injection from corporate donors more than helped them over the line. If there’s a question mark in you head over this dublin teams achievement then there should be the same question mark there over pretty much anything Kerry have achieved

In the interests of giving you a chance to show how you actually care about the game, and not just Kerry’s seat at the top table, let’s take dublin out of the picture for a second, a thought experiment if you will- Dublin's gone and you Gaffer91 now control the gaa purse strings. Tell us your plan and timescales to make Leitrim Carlow and Wicklow into all ireland challengers?

gaffer91

tritium wrote: »

You can wear those rose tinted glasses all you like but the reality is the evidence of the last 93 pages doesn’t support your position. You may want to tell yourself that Kerry won all those trophies on the back of pure skill alone on a level playing field but the reality is a long history of administrative help, strong sponsorship and financial backing and the odd downright unfair cash injection from corporate donors more than helped them over the line. If there’s a question mark in you head over this dublin teams achievement then there should be the same question mark there over pretty much anything Kerry have achieved

Not at all - there's no comparison between the advantages Dublin have historically had, and still have today, and any other county. Dublin are more overfunded than any other team in history, including Kerry, Cork or anyone else. Kerry have never had a crazy population advantage and played Semi- finals and finals at home. It's the combination of the advantages, not any single thing alone. For instance, pre- financial doping, I was merely in favour of a two way split of Dublin.

There's a question mark over Dublin's success because they are uniquely advantaged in the current environment compared to any other Gaelic Football team, ever. When Dublin fans whinge "why was no-one complaining about Kilkenny/ Kerry/ any other dominant team", the answer is quite simple; no other team had the advantages that Dublin do.

tritium wrote: »

In the interests of giving you a chance to show how you actually care about the game, and not just Kerry’s seat at the top table, let’s take dublin out of the picture for a second, a thought experiment if you will- Dublin's gone and you Gaffer91 now control the gaa purse strings. Tell us your plan and timescales to make Leitrim Carlow and Wicklow into all ireland challengers?

No point in being dragged off topic here. Feel free to start another thread on that if you want. To give a very brief answer however, I have long argued in favour of pooling all funding from all sources, and dividing more equitably between counties, particularly the spends on inter-county teams, after certain variables are accounted for (e.g mileage).

kilns

gaffer91 wrote: »

Did you even read the post? It's not just the population difference, it's the sheer scale of it, combined with the duration and scale of other advantages, including funding. So it's the combination of the advantages, the sheer scale of them compared to every other difference and the duration they have had these advantages for, that mean Dublin should be split. Differences between other counties don't even come close to the differences between Dublin and everyone else- especially when all these advantages for Dublin are looked at in their totality.

I find it curious that Leitrim are cited so often, a county that are the other statistical outlier, albeit in the opposite direction to Dublin. Regardless, splitting Dublin will help Leitrim by ensuring there is still a viable All-Ireland competition in the future.

So splitting Dublin will solve a lot of issues.

Splitting Dublin as i said would only solve a short sighted problem and ignore everything else, it is not a solution, its Healy-Rae type stuff - coming up with a solultion to solves the needs of those immediately involved but not taking the national interest into account. Do Galway and Mayo, Kerry and Cork, Kildare or Meath enjoy much more advantages than the Leitrims, Waterfords and Longfords of this world, yes they do. So why not level the whole playing field instead of making one current dominant team weaker. The All Ireland series would still be only viably contested by a very few select counties who have the resources to compete. Do you agree this is fair? or are you advocating a 2 tier all Ireland championship and those less counties who have less resources go into the 2nd tier and leave the All Ireland to be competed by those who can compete in it?

gaffer91

gaffer91 wrote: »

What is the point in having the exact same argument again? You are still as wrong today as you were then.

Swiftly followed by......

gaffer91 wrote: »

I already answered this in post 3675 in response to a similar question. To save me typing it out again, I've pasted the answer again below.

The ironing is delicious. Just because you've already said something doesn't make it factually correct.

gaffer91 wrote: »

So splitting Dublin will solve a lot of issues.

It won't solve anything for 18+ counties, but it will have a huge impact for the 'also-rans', which, by sheer coincidence, includes your own county (who were involved in 7 AI finals out of 8 before this current Dublin team came of age, lest we forget).

Your reasoning for splitting Dublin is pathetic and belies your true intentions. The gap between Kerry and Dublin is a lot closer than the gap between Kerry and 90% of the rest of the counties involved in football. But you won't even entertain the notion of splitting Kerry to make it fairer for everyone. I'd happily vote to split Dublin, if the other big boys followed suit........but......as I've already stated, this campaign to split Dublin in two/four/eight has nothing to do with helping the weaker counties and everything to do with helping Kerry get back to where they belong, challenging for All-Irelands.

G'way an sh1te, ffs.

kilns

gaffer91 wrote: »

Not at all - there's no comparison between the advantages Dublin have historically had, and still have today, and any other county. Dublin are more overfunded than any other team in history, including Kerry, Cork or anyone else. Kerry have never had a crazy population advantage and played Semi- finals and finals at home. It's the combination of the advantages, not any single thing alone. For instance, pre- financial doping, I was merely in favour of a two way split of Dublin.

There's a question mark over Dublin's success because they are uniquely advantaged in the current environment compared to any other Gaelic Football team, ever. When Dublin fans whinge "why was no-one complaining about Kilkenny/ Kerry/ any other dominant team", the answer is quite simple; no other team had the advantages that Dublin do.


No point in being dragged off topic here. Feel free to start another thread on that if you want. To give a very brief answer however, I have long argued in favour of pooling all funding from all sources, and dividing more equitably between counties, particularly the spends on inter-county teams, after certain variables are accounted for (e.g mileage).

How much do Kerry Group give Kerry GAA each year? How much did Kerry Group give Kerry GAA for their GAA centre in Currans?.

kilns

Deleted User wrote: »

Swiftly followed by......



The ironing is delicious. Just because you've already said something doesn't make it factually correct.



It won't solve anything for 18+ counties, but it will have a huge impact for the 'also-rans', which, by sheer coincidence, includes your own county (who were involved in 7 AI finals out of 8 before this current Dublin team came of age, lest we forget).

Your reasoning for splitting Dublin is pathetic and belies your true intentions. The gap between Kerry and Dublin is a lot closer than the gap between Kerry and 90% of the rest of the counties involved in football. But you won't even entertain the notion of splitting Kerry to make it fairer for everyone. I'd happily vote to split Dublin, if the other big boys followed suit........but......as I've already stated, this campaign to split Dublin in two/four/eight has nothing to do with helping the weaker counties and everything to do with helping Kerry get back to where they belong, challenging for All-Irelands.

G'way an sh1te, ffs.

Kerrys sponsorship funding is on par with AIGs of Dublin. I presume you would be happy to give this sponsorship to other counties?

gaffer91

Deleted User wrote: »

Swiftly followed by......


The ironing is delicious. Just because you've already said something doesn't make it factually correct.

Those were two different posters and the previous post I quoted hadn't been contested at all. There is no point in repeatedly posing the same questions if you aren't going to then deal with people's answers.

I tend to draw conclusions from facts unlike people like you who start at a conclusion (in this case "Dublin are winning things fairly") and then try desperately to find something, anything, that might back this up. So it stands to reason that my posts stand up to a lot more scrutiny than yours do.

Deleted User wrote: »

It won't solve anything for 18+ counties, but it will have a huge impact for the 'also-rans', which, by sheer coincidence, includes your own county (who were involved in 7 AI finals out of 8 before this current Dublin team came of age, lest we forget).

.

Splitting Dublin absolutely helps every county- it ensure there is a viable All Ireland competition into the future.

Deleted User wrote: »

Your reasoning for splitting Dublin is pathetic and belies your true intentions. The gap between Kerry and Dublin is a lot closer than the gap between Kerry and 90% of the rest of the counties involved in football. But you won't even entertain the notion of splitting Kerry to make it fairer for everyone. I'd happily vote to split Dublin, if the other big boys followed suit........but......as I've already stated, this campaign to split Dublin in two/four/eight has nothing to do with helping the weaker counties and everything to do with helping Kerry get back to where they belong, challenging for All-Irelands.

G'way an sh1te, ffs.

Not at all. My true intention is simple- do what is best for Gaelic games. In this case, this means splitting the Dublin inter-county teams. I have no intention to help, or indeed, to harm, any particular county.

Kerry don't have any unfair advantages- Dublin have many. That's why Dublin should be split, not just because of their success.

You're lying when you say you'd "happily vote to split Dublin"- this debate has shown you to be incredibly biased and partisan. You want to help Dublin at the expense of all other counties; even at the expense of the game itself.

gaffer91

kilns wrote: »

How much do Kerry Group give Kerry GAA each year? How much did Kerry Group give Kerry GAA for their GAA centre in Currans?.

Dublin get more funding from all sources than any other county, including Kerry. If you want to compare capital expenditure projects, you have to include things like Croke Park, the Games Development centre etc. Once again, it's clear that Dublin are uniquely favoured compared to everyone else.

dunnerc

gaffer91 wrote: »

Those were two different posters and the previous post I quoted hadn't been contested at all. There is no point in repeatedly posing the same questions if you aren't going to then deal with people's answers.

I tend to draw conclusions from facts unlike people like you who start at a conclusion (in this case "Dublin are winning things fairly") and then try desperately to find something, anything, that might back this up. So it stands to reason that my posts stand up to a lot more scrutiny than yours do.



Splitting Dublin absolutely helps every county- it ensure there is a viable All Ireland competition into the future.



Not at all. My true intention is simple- do what is best for Gaelic games. In this case, this means splitting the Dublin inter-county teams. I have no intention to help, or indeed, to harm, any particular county.

Kerry don't have any unfair advantages- Dublin have many. That's why Dublin should be split, not just because of their success.

You're lying when you say you'd "happily vote to split Dublin"- this debate has shown you to be incredibly biased and partisan. You want to help Dublin at the expense of all other counties; even at the expense of the game itself.

Only one person lying here , your fooling nobody :rolleyes:

kilns

gaffer91 wrote: »

Dublin get more funding from all sources than any other county, including Kerry. If you want to compare capital expenditure projects, you have to include things like Croke Park, the Games Development centre etc. Once again, it's clear that Dublin are uniquely favoured compared to everyone else.

I asked you a different question, do you know the answer

kilns

gaffer91 wrote: »

Those were two different posters and the previous post I quoted hadn't been contested at all. There is no point in repeatedly posing the same questions if you aren't going to then deal with people's answers.

I tend to draw conclusions from facts unlike people like you who start at a conclusion (in this case "Dublin are winning things fairly") and then try desperately to find something, anything, that might back this up. So it stands to reason that my posts stand up to a lot more scrutiny than yours do.



Splitting Dublin absolutely helps every county- it ensure there is a viable All Ireland competition into the future.



Not at all. My true intention is simple- do what is best for Gaelic games. In this case, this means splitting the Dublin inter-county teams. I have no intention to help, or indeed, to harm, any particular county.

Kerry don't have any unfair advantages- Dublin have many. That's why Dublin should be split, not just because of their success.

You're lying when you say you'd "happily vote to split Dublin"- this debate has shown you to be incredibly biased and partisan. You want to help Dublin at the expense of all other counties; even at the expense of the game itself.

So splitting Dublin gives Waterford, Longford, Leitrim, Antrim a better chance to win the All Ireland. Wow how simple split Dublin and everyone has a chance again just like the old days :rolleyes:

tritium

gaffer91 wrote: »

Did you even read the post? It's not just the population difference, it's the sheer scale of it, combined with the duration and scale of other advantages, including funding. So it's the combination of the advantages, the sheer scale of them compared to every other difference and the duration they have had these advantages for, that mean Dublin should be split. Differences between other counties don't even come close to the differences between Dublin and everyone else- especially when all these advantages for Dublin are looked at in their totality.

I find it curious that Leitrim are cited so often, a county that are the other statistical outlier, albeit in the opposite direction to Dublin. Regardless, splitting Dublin will help Leitrim by ensuring there is still a viable All-Ireland competition in the future.

So splitting Dublin will solve a lot of issues.

How can you use a term like duration when you’re oblivious to a situation in Munster that has gone on for over a century?

How exactly will Leitrim benefit in any way from addressing a recent phenomena when they’ve been unable to be competitive ever? You must take us for complete mugs peddling nonsense like that. How in the name of god has the AI ever been in any way “viable” for Leitrim.

gaffer91

kilns wrote: »

So splitting Dublin gives Waterford, Longford, Leitrim, Antrim a better chance to win the All Ireland. Wow how simple split Dublin and everyone has a chance again just like the old days :rolleyes:

It's not the only change but it's the single most important one. No-one will be watching or caring about inter- county football if the current Dublin domination built on unfair advantages continues.

So splitting Dublin will ensure other counties still have a competition to play in, so it will help them.

gaffer91

tritium wrote: »

How can you use a term like duration when you’re oblivious to a situation in Munster that has gone on for over a century?

How exactly will Leitrim benefit in any way from addressing a recent phenomena when they’ve been unable to be competitive ever? You must take us for complete mugs peddling nonsense like that. How in the name of god has the AI ever been in any way “viable” for Leitrim.

Dublin have unfair advantages, Kerry didn't and don't. How many times does this have to be pointed out. It's not just domination that's important, it's the inputs into it that are important.

If you wanted the provincials done away with- that's fine, Dublin will still have to be split.

See previous post for how splitting Dublin helps smaller counties.

Dyr

I'd imagine a lot of the splitting Dublin guff will take a back seat in 2020 as Kerry will reckon Jim Gavins departure gives their young bucks a chance. If it doesn't expect the yerrah chorus to reach a deafening crescendo in 2021

tritium

gaffer91 wrote: »

Dublin have unfair advantages, Kerry didn't and don't. How many times does this have to be pointed out. It's not just domination that's important, it's the inputs into it that are important.

If you wanted the provincials done away with- that's fine, Dublin will still have to be split.

See previous post for how splitting Dublin helps smaller counties.

As others have pointed out just because you want something to be true doesn’t actually make it true. Much as you may want to be able to tell yourself that Kerry’s success was all pure and fair, the uncomfortable evidence, as detailed earlier in this thread , gives a lie to that narrative. And you’ve provided absolutely nothing to refute that evidence. If anything Kerry’s advantages have been more insidious- at least dublin also had to deal with the established financial/administrative juggernaut that is Kerry, Kerry in their own pomp had no one close to them in terms of any advantages they held.

It’s pretty clear from your previous post and continued avoidance of the topic by the way that a) splitting dublin would do exactly zero for smaller counties and b) you know that that but don’t actually care since your agenda is about restoring the old status quo

tritium

tritium wrote: »

It’s pretty clear from your previous post and continued avoidance of the topic by the way that a) splitting dublin would do exactly zero for smaller counties and b) you know that that but don’t actually care since your agenda is about restoring the old status quo

Ah, but hobbling Dublin is good for the smaller counties because it leads to Kerry winning more AIs which means that the championship survives instead of being dominated by one team........

Dots1982

Im afraid the argument that splitting Dublin helps every county doesn’t really stand up. It helps around max 15 counties.

At the same time the concern of Dublin posters about the weakest counties like Waterford and Leitrim is disingenuous. They couldn’t give a **** about any county but themselves and don’t want changes to the status quo because the status quo benefits them.

That’s the truth of the matter.

kilns

gaffer91 wrote: »

It's not the only change but it's the single most important one. No-one will be watching or caring about inter- county football if the current Dublin domination built on unfair advantages continues.

So splitting Dublin will ensure other counties still have a competition to play in, so it will help them.

This is where your logic is really hard to understand if Dublin is split yes Dublin get weaker but Kerry Tyrone Mayo don’t for example. How does this ensure there is a competition for weaker counties to play in, longford Leitrim Wicklow Waterford Antrim etc will still be miles behind a county like Kerry so it fixes absolutely nothing it just doubles Kerry chance of winning an Ireland. Is that fair?

kilns

gaffer91 wrote: »

Dublin have unfair advantages, Kerry didn't and don't. How many times does this have to be pointed out. It's not just domination that's important, it's the inputs into it that are important.

If you wanted the provincials done away with- that's fine, Dublin will still have to be split.

See previous post for how splitting Dublin helps smaller counties.

The advantage of having a huge company in their county who puts 700,000 a year into their county and donates 1m to a training center. That’s a huge advantage that other counties don’t have