The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

odyssey06

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

What happened is everyone in Leinster apart from Dublin went backwards. Not surprising as they were deprived of serious funds for the last two decades.

They went backwards relative to everyone. Not just Dublin.
They had already started going backwards before any funding to Dublin kicked in.

They went backwards relative to regions and counties which received the same amount of GDO money as they did.

gormdubhgorm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

What happened is everyone in Leinster apart from Dublin went backwards. Not surprising as they were deprived of serious funds for the last two decades.

So now your tactic is to just avoid my point - about how the other counties besides Dublin have caught up and in some cases passed by Meath/Kildare.
Instead you just just pose another question about Dublin!
It does not seem very frank at all.
You yourself pointed out that Westmeath were in div 4 in one of the leinster finals.
What happened the prosperous counties of Kildare and Meath with much larger populations and infrastructure than all others except Dublin?
Where was thier run in qualifiers?

ToBeFrank123

odyssey06 wrote: »

They went backwards relative to everyone. Not just Dublin.
They had already started going backwards before any funding to Dublin kicked in.

As I have already said, the whole of Leinster apart from Dublin went backwards. Dublin jumped miles ahead of everyone in the country.

Its not hard to see what happened here. Dublin received money that should have been spread out better in Leinster.

I'm not sure I can explain it better.

The rest of Leinster are not playing on a level playing field when it comes to GDF as Dublin.

ToBeFrank123

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So now your tactic is to just avoid my point - about how the other counties besides Dublin have caught up and in some cases passed by Meath/Kildare.
Instead you just just pose another question about Dublin!
It does not seem very frank at all.
You yourself pointed out that Westmeath were in div 4 in one of the leinster finals.
What happened the prosperous counties of Kildare and Meath with much larger populations and infrastructure than all others except Dublin?
Where was thier run in qualifiers?

I have answered your point numerous times already.

Dublin received exceptional funding, far in excess of every other Leinster county who were deprived of funds. No surprise whatsoever they would go backwards.

odyssey06

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

As I have already said, the whole of Leinster apart from Dublin went backwards. Dublin jumped miles ahead of everyone in the country.
Its not hard to see what happened here. Dublin received money that should have been spread out better in Leinster.
I'm not sure I can explain it better.

If money explains it, why did Leinster counties go backwards relative to other counties and provinces who received the same - or less - funding than they did, over the period?
So nothing has been explained.

Why did no Leinster team win an All Ireland or even a National League between 2000 and 2010?

ToBeFrank123

odyssey06 wrote: »

They went backwards relative to everyone. Not just Dublin.
They had already started going backwards before any funding to Dublin kicked in.

They went backwards relative to regions and counties which received the same amount of GDO money as they did.

A series of drubbings at the hands of Dublin tends to be very demotivating for all concerned in counties in the rest of Leinster - coaches and players. Many take the view why bother with gaelic football and go into other sports.

Not that the GAA give a damn or fear for player loss in these counties. No wringing of hands there, only when the fear is in Dublin.

Its all a question of resources at the end of the day. Dublin are a superpower when it comes to resources and funding.

As for the rest falling back, Leinster is mostly a weak province in any case.

odyssey06

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

A series of drubbings at the hands of Dublin tends to be very demotivating for all concerned in counties in the rest of Leinster - coaches and players. Many take the view why bother with gaelic football and go into other sports.
Not that the GAA give a damn or fear for player loss in these counties. No wringing of hands there, only when the fear is in Dublin.

Except, the decline in Leinster at All Ireland level had already started before Dublin started drubbing them. At least with Dublin, Leinster has one team capable of winning national titles. The rest had their chance 2000 - 2010 and failed.

gormdubhgorm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

As I have already said, the whole of Leinster apart from Dublin went backwards. Dublin jumped miles ahead of everyone in the country.

Its not hard to see what happened here. Dublin received money that should have been spread out better in Leinster.

I'm not sure I can explain it better.

The rest of Leinster are not playing on a level playing field when it comes to GDF as Dublin.

No what you are doing is confusing cause and effect when it suits you - if you look at the level of development grants v ELO rating (excluding Dublin) many more unsuccessful counties get more than the successful counties.




Look at the amount Fermanagh get compared to Kerry.
Or Longford v Mayo.

odyssey06

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

As for the rest falling back, Leinster is mostly a weak province in any case.

From 1970 - 2000 Offaly and Meath picked up 7 All Irelands and 4-5 National Leagues. The real mystery is what happened the rest of Leinster since 2000 and Dublin's funding doesn't explain it because the decline happened before that could have delivered results at senior level.

ToBeFrank123

odyssey06 wrote: »

If money explains it, why did Leinster counties go backwards relative to other counties and provinces who received the same - or less - funding than they did, over the period?
So nothing has been explained.

Why did no Leinster team win an All Ireland or even a National League between 2000 and 2010?

Very very simple.

1. The other Leinster counties are unable to match the sponsorship revenue of the likes of Dublin, Kerry, Cork and one or two others.

2. The other Leinster counties received much less GDF than Dublin. I don't have the figures in comparison to the rest of the country, but I would be interested to see how they compare.

3. Several beatings by Dublin is demotivating for players, coaches and fans in the long run. Youngsters will simply opt to play other sports in attempts to win something.

4. Apart from 3 or 4 counties, Leinster was always fair weak compared to other provinces. Apart from Offaly in 1981 and 82, and Kildare in 98, only Meath and Dublin have competed in AI finals in the last 40 years. Its always been Meath or Dublin who competed nationally for most of GAA history with a very odd exception.

So Leinster hasn't really fallen away that much. Meath have fallen away and Dublin have surged ahead. Apart from that, its about the same as it always was. The rest of the country in addition has pushed on with people like Harte and McGuiness bringing far more professionalism but at great financial cost that the like of Carlow, Laois, Westmeath, Longford can't match.

gormdubhgorm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

V
So Leinster hasn't really fallen away that much. Meath have fallen away and Dublin have surged ahead

That seems like an "ah but, yeah but, post" - the standard either did fall away or it didn't!
Plus Kildare and Meath are commuter counties no excuses on facilities many working/living in Dublin etc

odyssey06

Only Dublin, Cork and Derry received more funding than Meath, Offaly and Laois.
Since 2000, Meath got more funding and has more people than Mayo, Donegal, Armagh, Tyrone.
Have they been as good, as any of them since 2000 at national level? All of the above teams have national titles.
They are not just being outclassed by Kerry, Dublin and Cork.

If Leinster teams are being battered by Dublin, why are they being battered by Dublin to the extent that it demoralises them into quitting the game when none of Mayo, Donegal, Armagh, Tyrone etc react that way?
Even if Dublin are on another level to them, there is not just one competition i.e the Leinster football championship.
There is the league, back door route to All Ireland series and Super 8.

There is probably a mid rank of teams who would have hopes for a provincial title in a lucky year but not at All Ireland e.g. Roscommon, Sligo, Leitrim, Tipperary at football, some of the Ulster teams.
Dublin's pre-dominance in Leinster could be a blocker to equivalent teams in Leinster.
But that's just the game.

The argument you are trying to make for Leinster is not supported by the results relative to other counties & provinces, by the levels of funding, or by the levels of population.

ToBeFrank123

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That seems like an "ah but, yeah but, post" - the standard either did fall away or it didn't!
Plus Kildare and Meath are commuter counties no excuses on facilities many working/living in Dublin etc

Again I don't have the records to hand, but Dublin and Meath would likely be streets ahead with Leinster championships, similar to Kerry and Cork in Munster.

Once both Meath and Cork fall away, the other superpower in the province tends to have a free run at it. It was the same in Connacht with Galway falling backwards and Mayo dominating. Its not like for example Offaly and Kildare have been consistently competing for Leinster championships the last 100 years. They haven't.

Not sure what commuter counties has got to do with anything?

Again the mistake made by the GAA was to target Dublin with funds more than they deserved and ignore the plight of genuinely weaker counties in Leinster who should have received far more.

Strumms

Dublin teams have won 9 of the last 40 all Ireland Football Senior County Championships.


22.5%


Dublin teams have 5 of the last 40 all Ireland Football Senior Club Championships


12.5%



Kerry have won 13 of the last 40 all Ireland Senior County Championships

32.5%

ToBeFrank123

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Its blatantly obvious Athlone is far more accessible to people from Donegal, Sligo, Cork, Kerry, Limerick, Tipperary, and most of the country than Dublin.

Its far more accessible basically for everyone in Ulster, Connacht, Munster, the Midlands and most of Leinster.

Thanks for the map, there, chief....I'm well aware of the location of Athlone though.

Anyway, a quick look on google maps shows the driving times between the two places:

Letterkenny is 3h 09m from Athlone and 3h 07m from the NAC.
Derry is 3h 19m vs 3h 16m
Omagh 2h 30m vs 2h 14m
Belfast 3h 08m vs 2h 03m

So that's Ulster out of the way, in Dublin's favour.

We'll give you Connacht seeing as half the population would nearly have to drive through it to get to dublin. there's no way you're getting "most of Leinster", though. All of Meath, Louth, Wicklow, Kildare, Wexford, Carlow and Dublin itself are closer to Dublin than Athlone in terms of travel time. Even Portlaoise is only 2 minutes slower, FFS.

Munster is split, as the likes of Tralee are closer to Athlone by 10 mins or so, while the vast majority of cork is closer and quicker to Dublin.

So, to recap:

You're correct that Connacht is quicker and the Western half of Munster is also quicker. The rest of the country is either the same or quicker to Dublin, and that's at 5pm on a weekday. If you were going for geographical proximity, maybe you'd have a point. But if you're talking about travel times and/or sheer numbers of people then you're wrong..........Connacht and West Munster aren't exactly full to the gills with inhabitants.

Also, "the Midlands" isn't a province and those counties are incorporated into the rest of provinces.

blanch152

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Again I don't have the records to hand, but Dublin and Meath would likely be streets ahead with Leinster championships, similar to Kerry and Cork in Munster.

Once both Meath and Cork fall away, the other superpower in the province tends to have a free run at it. It was the same in Connacht with Galway falling backwards and Mayo dominating. Its not like for example Offaly and Kildare have been consistently competing for Leinster championships the last 100 years. They haven't.

Once again, you get away with disingenuous posts by saying you don't have the records to hand. Well, they were posted in the thread already. Leinster is the least dominated province of the three.

You cannot put Dublin and Meath on the same page as Kerry and Cork when it comes to provincial dominance. That is completely disingenuous.

blanch152 wrote: »

He raises a fair point.

Kerry and Cork have won 93% of the Munster Football Championships since 1900.

Galway and Mayo have won 79% of the Connacht Football Championships since 1900.

Dublin and Meath have won 60% of the Leinster Football Championships since 1900.

There has never been a level playing field, there have been unfair structural biases built into the GAA since its foundation.

What hope for Waterford in splitting Dublin? None. Ditto Leitrim, Antrim, Wicklow, Clare, Limerick, Tipperary, Sligo, London etc.

The only ones calling for it are coming from Mayo, Cork, Kerry, Meath and Kildare, for their own selfish reasons. The debate has no credibility other than being a bitter losing whinge unless it also addressed the successes of teams other than Dublin.

Floppybits

blanch152 wrote: »

Once again, you get away with disingenuous posts by saying you don't have the records to hand. Well, they were posted in the thread already. Leinster is the least dominated province of the three.

You cannot put Dublin and Meath on the same page as Kerry and Cork when it comes to provincial dominance. That is completely disingenuous.

Ah will ya stop, it suits their argument so they will lump anything they can in. Surprised they haven't included the patriots superbowl record in as well.:)

odyssey06

Floppybits wrote: »

Ah will ya stop, it suits their argument so they will lump anything they can in. Surprised they haven't included the patriots superbowl record in as well.:)

NfL have a draft system, salary cap and 32 teams spread around the country so no huge population advantages. And still one team has 6/19 out of the superbowls this century. Thats sport.

ToBeFrank123

Strumms wrote: »

Dublin teams have won 9 of the last 40 all Ireland Football Senior County Championships.


22.5%


Dublin teams have 5 of the last 40 all Ireland Football Senior Club Championships


12.5%



Kerry have won 13 of the last 40 all Ireland Senior County Championships

32.5%

We are talking about current dominance on this thread.

Dublin have won 7 of the last 9 AIs.

That's almost 80%.

Fann Linn

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

We are talking about current dominance on this thread.

Dublin have won 7 of the last 9 AIs.

That's over 80%.

So we're only splitting Dublin on current performances?
Might just encourage other teams to take their foot of the gas so if they know they're gonna be divided because some Mayo men and a few others get disgruntled.

ToBeFrank123

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Thanks for the map, there, chief....I'm well aware of the location of Athlone though.

Anyway, a quick look on google maps shows the driving times between the two places:

Letterkenny is 3h 09m from Athlone and 3h 07m from the NAC.
Derry is 3h 19m vs 3h 16m
Omagh 2h 30m vs 2h 14m
Belfast 3h 08m vs 2h 03m

So that's Ulster out of the way, in Dublin's favour.

We'll give you Connacht seeing as half the population would nearly have to drive through it to get to dublin. there's no way you're getting "most of Leinster", though. All of Meath, Louth, Wicklow, Kildare, Wexford, Carlow and Dublin itself are closer to Dublin than Athlone in terms of travel time. Even Portlaoise is only 2 minutes slower, FFS.

Munster is split, as the likes of Tralee are closer to Athlone by 10 mins or so, while the vast majority of cork is closer and quicker to Dublin.

So, to recap:

You're correct that Connacht is quicker and the Western half of Munster is also quicker. The rest of the country is either the same or quicker to Dublin, and that's at 5pm on a weekday. If you were going for geographical proximity, maybe you'd have a point. But if you're talking about travel times and/or sheer numbers of people then you're wrong..........Connacht and West Munster aren't exactly full to the gills with inhabitants.

Also, "the Midlands" isn't a province and those counties are incorporated into the rest of provinces.

FFS, look at what you wrote.

Same distance for most of Ulster and places like Portlaoise.

Then dimissed all of Connacht and most of the football heartlands of Munster such as Kerry.

Also dismissed the Midlands. And most of west Leinster.

And then question why Leinster counties might have to travel more than an hour.

The centre is a complete waste of money. It would have been better to put the money into provincial centres. But Athlone would have been the fairest location for ALL counties IF going down a national centre route.

ToBeFrank123

Fann Linn wrote: »

So we're only splitting Dublin on current performances?
Might just encourage other teams to take their foot of the gas so if they know they're gonna be divided because some Mayo men and a few others get disgruntled.

Did I say splitting Dublin?

ToBeFrank123

odyssey06 wrote: »

From 1970 - 2000 Offaly and Meath picked up 7 All Irelands and 4-5 National Leagues. The real mystery is what happened the rest of Leinster since 2000 and Dublin's funding doesn't explain it because the decline happened before that could have delivered results at senior level.

Offaly won 3 AIs in 12 years. Outside of that they won no AIs. Kildare last won an AI back in the 1920s. Louth won in 1957. These counties have not been consistent in the long run.

After a good decade in the 1990s for Meath and Dublin both went into transition in the early 2000s.

The difference is Dublin were pumped to the gills with gdf, Meath were not.

As for the rest falling back, when exactly were westmeath, laois, longford, etc challenging for AIs? The first two did well while Meath and Dublin were at a low point. Dublin would have come again. But they got a nice big push from Bertie. The greatest sugar daddy of them all

ToBeFrank123

blanch152 wrote: »

Once again, you get away with disingenuous posts by saying you don't have the records to hand. Well, they were posted in the thread already. Leinster is the least dominated province of the three.

You cannot put Dublin and Meath on the same page as Kerry and Cork when it comes to provincial dominance. That is completely disingenuous.

There is only so much research into the GAA I can do during work hours!

2 out of 11 football counties wining 60% of titles.

If that's not two counties being streets ahead I don't know what is?

Kildare have won 2 out of the last 63 Leinster titles both times managed by probably the greatest GAA manager of all time. Other than that they are where they've mostly been the last 50 years.

But hey Dublin was the weak county in the early 2000s or so Bertie thought despite winning an AI only 7 years before. He probably viewed Westmeath, Laois, Offaly as dominant teams or something like that.

He should have stuck to da auld soccer.

gormdubhgorm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

But hey Dublin was the weak county in the early 2000s or so Bertie thought despite winning an AI only 7 years before. He probably viewed Westmeath, Laois, Offaly as dominant teams or something like that.

He should have stuck to da auld soccer.

Again disingenuous contribution from you. Your own bias is shining through with those unsubstantiated comments and snide remarks

If you look at what the man himself said you might stop peddling the guff above.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/ahern-defends-dublin-gaas-funding-windfall-865484.html

“Yes, Dublin has a big population, but it’s a tough game in Dublin. It’s huge soccer country; it’s huge rugby country; it’s huge people-who-couldn’t-care-less-about-Gaelic-football; huge new Irish population, if I put it that way; and you have people who just aren’t sympathetic to GAA in the city.”

“I remember back in ’95, coming back up from a commemoration in Wexford the day of the All-Ireland final, and I had to go to Liberty Hall before I saw the first Dublin colours. It’s not like that now, but it was like that."

ToBeFrank123

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

FFS, look at what you wrote.

Same distance for most of Ulster and places like Portlaoise.

Then dimissed all of Connacht and most of the football heartlands of Munster such as Kerry.

Also dismissed the Midlands. And most of west Leinster.

And then question why Leinster counties might have to travel more than an hour.

The centre is a complete waste of money. It would have been better to put the money into provincial centres. But Athlone would have been the fairest location for ALL counties IF going down a national centre route.

What are you talking about, the only thing I dismissed was your use of the Midlands as a fifth province.

All of Ulster bar is quicker to Dublin, the most populated part is quicker by an hour..... 1-0 Dublin
All of Connacht is closer to Athlone..... 1-1
Half of Munster is closer to Athlone.... 1.5 - 1.5
Nearly all of Leinster is closer to Dublin..... 1.75 - 2.25 in Dublins favour.

Not only that, The 1.75 is made up of the least populated regions in the country. We haven't even gotten into the realm of access for non drivers yet.

Your argument that it should be in Athlone is dead in the water. You picked it because geographically its in the middle of the country but didn't take anything else into account because its symbolic of your bull**** "why do Dublin get everything" single mindedness. Your argument doesn't hold water. Doesn't cut the mustard. It is an ex-argument. You just don't want it to be in Dublin because..... Fcuk Dublin!

ToBeFrank123

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What are you talking about, the only thing I dismissed was your use of the Midlands as a fifth province.

This is what I said.

Its far more accessible basically for everyone in Ulster, Connacht, Munster, the Midlands and most of Leinster.

Did I say the Midlands is a province?

The midlands is a region, much like the north west, south west, south east.

Its not my fault you don't understand the difference between a region and a province.

ToBeFrank123

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What are you talking about, the only thing I dismissed was your use of the Midlands as a fifth province.

All of Ulster bar is quicker to Dublin, the most populated part is quicker by an hour..... 1-0 Dublin
All of Connacht is closer to Athlone..... 1-1
Half of Munster is closer to Athlone.... 1.5 - 1.5
Nearly all of Leinster is closer to Dublin..... 1.75 - 2.25 in Dublins favour.

Not only that, The 1.75 is made up of the least populated regions in the country. We haven't even gotten into the realm of access for non drivers yet.

Your argument that it should be in Athlone is dead in the water. You picked it because geographically its in the middle of the country but didn't take anything else into account because its symbolic of your bull**** "why do Dublin get everything" single mindedness. Your argument doesn't hold water. Doesn't cut the mustard. It is an ex-argument. You just don't want it to be in Dublin because..... Fcuk Dublin!

There are 32 counties in Ireland and 31 who take part in Sam Maguire. Do you not think players from all 31 should have relatively fair access to a national centre?

The argument is not about it being in Dublin because its Dublin. Its about being in a location relatively accessible to every single county, particulalry those on the west coast. Its about making an attempt to be fair in its location. Sticking it on the extreme east coast is hardly fair to people on the extreme west coast now is it?

ToBeFrank123

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Again disingenuous contribution from you. Your own bias is shining through with those unsubstantiated comments and snide remarks

If you look at what the man himself said you might stop peddling the guff above.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/ahern-defends-dublin-gaas-funding-windfall-865484.html

“Yes, Dublin has a big population, but it’s a tough game in Dublin. It’s huge soccer country; it’s huge rugby country; it’s huge people-who-couldn’t-care-less-about-Gaelic-football; huge new Irish population, if I put it that way; and you have people who just aren’t sympathetic to GAA in the city.”

“I remember back in ’95, coming back up from a commemoration in Wexford the day of the All-Ireland final, and I had to go to Liberty Hall before I saw the first Dublin colours. It’s not like that now, but it was like that."

Bertie was talking horse manure. Rugby is strong in numerous counties as are several other sports.

Next you'll be telling us soccer is weak in Louth and gaelic football has a free run there.

It was a clear and naked attempt by him to buy success. Blatently obvious.

Keep the excuses coming though!

beggars_bush

odyssey06 wrote: »

Only Dublin, Cork and Derry received more funding than Meath, Offaly and Laois.
Since 2000, Meath got more funding and has more people than Mayo, Donegal, Armagh, Tyrone.
Have they been as good, as any of them since 2000 at national level? All of the above teams have national titles.
They are not just being outclassed by Kerry, Dublin and Cork.

If Leinster teams are being battered by Dublin, why are they being battered by Dublin to the extent that it demoralises them into quitting the game when none of Mayo, Donegal, Armagh, Tyrone etc react that way?
Even if Dublin are on another level to them, there is not just one competition i.e the Leinster football championship.
There is the league, back door route to All Ireland series and Super 8.

There is probably a mid rank of teams who would have hopes for a provincial title in a lucky year but not at All Ireland e.g. Roscommon, Sligo, Leitrim, Tipperary at football, some of the Ulster teams.
Dublin's pre-dominance in Leinster could be a blocker to equivalent teams in Leinster.
But that's just the game.

The argument you are trying to make for Leinster is not supported by the results relative to other counties & provinces, by the levels of funding, or by the levels of population.

Roscommon have 20+ provincial titles. I'd say they start most years thinking they can win