Slow play is killing golf

patob

This needs to be taken seriously at all levels of the game. Most US pros afraid to say boo to De Chambeau for his latest carry on.
Time for the US PGA to act with shot penalties.
Slow play is one of the main reasons I gave up my membership a few years ago. Anyone bothered about this issue here?

Henry Ford III

I agree. Bryson isn't the only one guilty by any means but he has a cheek to say he isn't slow.

gypsy79

It would be great if Sky or someone else started a time per shot stat

Probably not in the interest of PGA to have all the evidence

There has been a commotion before and it just eventually went away

Trampas

Until the day they start dishing out penalties to top players it’ll continue to happen. No point in giving penalties to journeymen if top players get done. Not even doing that. Good to see some players coming out about it but Bryson comments should be taken and given out to them.

Is their an official rule on slow play on time? If not then one should be written

prawnsambo

My respect for Brooks Koepka is growing

Rikand

Tbf, a man of Brook's stature has little to fear from someone like bryson

finglashoop

patob wrote: »

This needs to be taken seriously at all levels of the game. Most US pros afraid to say boo to De Chambeau for his latest carry on.
Time for the US PGA to act with shot penalties.
Slow play is one of the main reasons I gave up my membership a few years ago. Anyone bothered about this issue here?

My main problem with golf. Pros taking so long encourages everyone else to.

Do pros not have someone from the tour with them for the round. Give him a stop watch and let him time them. Its an easy fix.

LuckyGent88

From PGA tour twitter feed just now: We're exploring adjustments to our current pace-of-play policy.

LOL

Mushy

LuckyGent88 wrote: »

From PGA tour twitter feed just now: We're exploring adjustments to our current pace-of-play policy.

LOL

Just came to post that. This could be fun now

Trampas

I’d love the day if someone turned to Woods and said sorry Eldrick you’ve got a shot penalty for slow play.

Do that and they’ve solved so play

Trampas

Trampas wrote: »

I’d love the day if someone turned to Woods and said sorry Eldrick you’ve got a shot penalty for slow play.

Do that and they’ve solved so play

Tiger is actually regarded as being one of the quicker players on tour.

Henry Ford III

Ward J. Littell wrote: »

Tiger is actually regarded as being one of the quicker players on tour.

By Bryson "The Rocket" DeChambeau and Jason "Exocet" Day perhaps?

Trampas

Ward J. Littell wrote: »

Tiger is actually regarded as being one of the quicker players on tour.

More a figure of speak than anything.

They’d hammer a journeyman as no back lash but they do someone like woods they’d be afraid of it.

Trampas

Trampas wrote: »

More a figure of speak than anything.

They’d hammer a journeyman as no back lash but they do someone like woods they’d be afraid of it.

I agree with you there. Prime example of that was when they penalised that young Asian amateur player in the Masters a few years ago.

LuckyGent88

The twitter drama over slow play continues. Now it’s Phil saying green books don’t slow play down at all. Says they are needed to speed up play.

Luke Donald disagreed and we have another little spat on our hands. This time Eddie Pepperal tried to play peacekeeper

GreeBo

They should let them all use range finders and immediately it would be faster.
I honestly dont see the difference between lasering it and pacing it out (other than lasering it being far quicker of course)

DuckSlice

GreeBo wrote: »

They should let them all use range finders and immediately it would be faster.
I honestly dont see the difference between lasering it and pacing it out (other than lasering it being far quicker of course)

I agree, the distance they are from the hole is a matter of fact, how they find out the distance shouldn't matter.

Would speeding up the play mean more camera crews required though to see every shot?

I think slow play in local clubs isn't that much of an issue. some of the issue I think is that lads have gone around in 3 or 3.5 hours for a 3 ball and they expect to go around at this pace every week. I know someone who if you ask him how did he get on he will tell you how long it took him before he tells you the score. Obsessed with going around as fast as possible. My club has a lot of older members and they just cant do this pace.

GreeBo

etxp wrote: »

I agree, the distance they are from the hole is a matter of fact, how they find out the distance shouldn't matter.

Would speeding up the play mean more camera crews required though to see every shot?

I think slow play in local clubs isn't that much of an issue. some of the issue I think is that lads have gone around in 3 or 3.5 hours for a 3 ball and they expect to go around at this pace every week. I know someone who if you ask him how did he get on he will tell you how long it took him before he tells you the score. Obsessed with going around as fast as possible. My club has a lot of older members and they just cant do this pace.

You dont need to be running around and every course should have a target time for 3/4 balls, if you are keeping up with that then there is no problem, but you still need to let people through if you are not keeping up with the group in front.

If you are not able to hit the target time then you need to consider (or have someone else decide for you!) to play outside of peak times (afternoons or in overflows)

copperhead

I have been away from golf the last few years and only recently took it back up, I can see both sides of the argument but I thinks it has been blown completely out of proportion as far as us armatures are concerned, first off I don't see the problem with a 4 ball taking 3 and a half to 4 hours to complete a round, I always allow 4 or 4 and a half hours to play if I don't have that amount of time to spare I dont play, I'm not a slow player but it's reality that perhaps a group in frount is slow or maybe a member of our group, I'm guessing the Average club golfers are shooting 80 or 90 strokes a round and we're not as consistent off the tee etc etc, for me there is nothing worse than the feeling of being rushed the whole way around, but on the other hand alot of the pros are just really taking the piss there is no need for alot of the over analysis they carry on with

DuckSlice

GreeBo wrote: »

You dont need to be running around and every course should have a target time for 3/4 balls, if you are keeping up with that then there is no problem, but you still need to let people through if you are not keeping up with the group in front.

If you are not able to hit the target time then you need to consider (or have someone else decide for you!) to play outside of peak times (afternoons or in overflows)

I'm not saying people shouldn't be letting other groups through, im just saying people have an unrealistic time in what they should be going around in. If you are out on a Sunday at peak times you shouldn't be expecting to get around in 3/3.5 hours.

However I did notice recently that the captains prize was taking 4.5 hours for 3 balls and that is slow.

Russman

GreeBo wrote: »

They should let them all use range finders and immediately it would be faster.
I honestly dont see the difference between lasering it and pacing it out (other than lasering it being far quicker of course)

I'd agree with this, as long as its all done within the stipulated time. You'd still have guys lasering every hump and hollow they can see and/or walking to a spot where they can see everything.

I mean, I know yardages are important (obviously) and I'm not saying go back to playing by sight & feel, but when Bryson had to pace out a 70 yard shot the other day because that area of the course didn't have markings, there's something seriously wrong IMO. If one of the top players in the world can't hit a short shot like that based on what he sees, maybe he needs to look at himself rather than find reasons why he's not slow.

Henry Ford III

I was on the course (inside the ropes) at the recent Irish Open.

On Sunday I went out with one of the earlier games, and we flew around on 3 hours and 10 minutes. Both players shot 68.

copperhead

etxp wrote: »

I'm not saying people shouldn't be letting other groups through, im just saying people have an unrealistic time in what they should be going around in. If you are out on a Sunday at peak times you should be expecting to get around in 3/3.5 hours.

However I did notice recently that the captains prize was taking 4.5 hours for 3 balls and that is slow.

I don't think that 3 hours Is realistic for a three or four ball, that's and average of 10 mins per hole?

Mantis Toboggan

If you're expecting to get around in 3 hours in a 3 ball on a Saturday or Sunday morning competition you're going to be disappointed and probably highly frustrated. It's not realistic.

mike12

copperhead wrote: »

I don't think that 3 hours Is realistic for a three or four ball, that's and average of 10 mins per hole?

It's not far off though per hole, 12 mins is 3.40 pace with 14 mins over 4.10.

The pace of a course gets slower the later in the day it is as long as u are keeping up with the group in front u can't really do much else.
For me letting people thru usually delays things further I think there should be more pressure for people to catch up.

If as a 4ball u save 15 seconds each a hole u bring the time down by 18 mins.
Most courses 4 hours should be max for a 4ball, u have some courses that it's not possible with walks and length of the course.

slave1

copperhead wrote: »

I don't think that 3 hours Is realistic for a three or four ball, that's and average of 10 mins per hole?

I played a 3ball in 2hrs 55mins on Sunday, we started 35minutes behind the 3ball in front and caught them on 14.
Previous week was a 2 ball in 2hrs 40mins
Both days were comp rounds

DuckSlice

copperhead wrote: »

I don't think that 3 hours Is realistic for a three or four ball, that's and average of 10 mins per hole?

sorry that was a typo, it was meant to say shouldn't

DuckSlice

slave1 wrote: »

I played a 3ball in 2hrs 55mins on Sunday, we started 35minutes behind the 3ball in front and caught them on 14.
Previous week was a 2 ball in 2hrs 40mins
Both days were comp rounds

Those times are achievable if you get a clear course. but peak times on a Sunday, when you aren't first out is going to leave you frustrated if your expecting that pace.

My home course is also a nine hole and there isn't a block on teeing off at a certain time on Sundays to let the early starters through without getting stuck behind on the first tee. Many times we have done a 90 minute front nine followed by a 2.5 hour back nine

Mantis Toboggan

slave1 wrote: »

I played a 3ball in 2hrs 55mins on Sunday, we started 35minutes behind the 3ball in front and caught them on 14.
Previous week was a 2 ball in 2hrs 40mins
Both days were comp rounds

Would it be usual that it's not a full time sheet on a Sunday?

Even still that's an extremely quick round, the course must be short/setup to be quick ie, all the cabbage cut - no real hazards?

Simply wouldn't be possible of my track, best I've seen this year was 3hrs 40 minutes. We have water or out of bounds on most holes.

3 hrs 40 is not quick for a 3 ball. 4+ hour rounds of golf are incredibly off putting for somebody thinking of getting back into the game

Mantis Toboggan

AdamD wrote: »

3 hrs 40 is not quick for a 3 ball.

It is in our club were the average 3 ball would be 4 hrs.

DuckSlice

AdamD wrote: »

3 hrs 40 is not quick for a 3 ball. 4+ hour rounds of golf are incredibly off putting for somebody thinking of getting back into the game

Just make sure you are out early if you don't want to be out there for 4 hours and only play a two-ball. otherwise you will be on the course for up to 4/4.5 hours.

also if you are getting back into the game you don't have to play 18 all the time. 9 holes are always an option if stuck for time.

slingerz

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

It is in our club were the average 3 ball would be 4 hrs.

yea a 3ball on a saturday/sunday at ours would be doing well to get around in 4 hours

Dtoffee

Is this the future https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhFLF3G-ebg


Personally I am happy to go out and spend 4 / 4.5 hours in a fourball with good company and a small side bet for bragging rights. Its my time out and I want to enjoy it without feeling I'm on a deadline and must get around quicker.

Golf was introduced to me as a game with etiquette and good manners, slow play was always there and you accepted that not everyone could walk at the same pace. I admire the older golfers who still make the effort to go out and play, they are the ones who kept the club going and who have invested their time and money over decades, without them there would be no club .... they have my respect and I see no benefit in running them off the course (as I aspire to being them one day).

prawnsambo

Dtoffee wrote: »

Is this the future https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhFLF3G-ebg

The Irish chap (who won it) putting one handed whilst holding his bag was brilliant. Just looked so nonchalant.

Hoboo

Dtoffee wrote: »

Is this the future https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhFLF3G-ebg


Personally I am happy to go out and spend 4 / 4.5 hours in a fourball with good company and a small side bet for bragging rights. Its my time out and I want to enjoy it without feeling I'm on a deadline and must get around quicker.

Golf was introduced to me as a game with etiquette and good manners, slow play was always there and you accepted that not everyone could walk at the same pace. I admire the older golfers who still make the effort to go out and play, they are the ones who kept the club going and who have invested their time and money over decades, without them there would be no club .... they have my respect and I see no benefit in running them off the course (as I aspire to being them one day).

Exactly. It's just a form of road rage. You're in my way, you're delaying me, get out of my way.

If you're waiting to take a shot on each hole then slow down, let the field determine the pace, you're not going anywhere so no point getting wound up. And if you do, it's not slow play that's killing your score, it's your attitude.

mike12

For pace of play isn't really how quick the round is it's how the flow of the round is.

I have had 4 hour rounds that felt like torture waiting on every shot and 4 hour rounds that have flown by.

It can often be as simple as players hanging around a green or leaving bags the wrong side so we are on the fairway waiting to play.
Or the sheep, 4 guys all walk together go to player A's ball watch him hit go to player Bs ball watch him hit rather than everyone head to their own ball and get ready to play.

They maybe keeping up but they are delaying the players behind them playing shots.

Russman

Hoboo wrote: »

Exactly. It's just a form of road rage. You're in my way, you're delaying me, get out of my way.

If you're waiting to take a shot on each hole then slow down, let the field determine the pace, you're not going anywhere so no point getting wound up. And if you do, it's not slow play that's killing your score, it's your attitude.

No, its not a form of road rage. Just because someone wants to be as slow as they like, all the other players shouldn't just have to suck it up because that's just the way it is.
Letting the field determine the pace is essentially letting the slowest players determine the pace.
No one is sensibly advocating what often gets termed "running" around the golf course, but there should absolutely be an acceptable pace for a round of golf without annoying both the speed merchants and the "I paid my fees and I'll take as long as I want" brigade. I'd suggest, and I'm being pretty generous here I think, that under 4 hours should be attainable on most golf courses that we'd play. In a lot of cases I'd even go with well under 4 hours.

Russman

mike12 wrote: »

For pace of play isn't really how quick the round is it's how the flow of the round is.

I have had 4 hour rounds that felt like torture waiting on every shot and 4 hour rounds that have flown by.

It can often be as simple as players hanging around a green or leaving bags the wrong side so we are on the fairway waiting to play.
Or the sheep, 4 guys all walk together go to player A's ball watch him hit go to player Bs ball watch him hit rather than everyone head to their own ball and get ready to play.

They maybe keeping up but they are delaying the players behind them playing shots.

Definitely agree with this. It certainly doesn't take anything extreme to keep the pace moving. Its the little things like leaving bags the wrong side, marking cards on the green and basically not being ready when its your turn that all add up. I'd even suggest that "ready golf", which is great and I love it, isn't always necessary to keep things moving. For sure it helps but there are plenty of even simpler things if someone isn't a fan.

dan_ep82

For me its the really obvious time killers.

Lads late to tee off, early to tee off is another most don't talk about.

Having a chat on the tee box.

Fishing or looking in bushes for golf balls that dont belong to them.

+5 minutes looking for a golf ball.

The rest I can deal with. It's the really obvious delays, where the guys know they shouldn't be doing it but **** everyone else anyhow, that get me.

4hrs is acceptable on most courses for me, bigger tougher courses I'd allow for 4.5 on busy days. I can get around my own in a two ball in just over two hours but I dont expect it on a Sunday medal and think anyone who does is being unreasonable.

Hoboo

Russman wrote: »

No, its not a form of road rage. Just because someone wants to be as slow as they like, all the other players shouldn't just have to suck it up because that's just the way it is.
Letting the field determine the pace is essentially letting the slowest players determine the pace.
No one is sensibly advocating what often gets termed "running" around the golf course, but there should absolutely be an acceptable pace for a round of golf without annoying both the speed merchants and the "I paid my fees and I'll take as long as I want" brigade. I'd suggest, and I'm being pretty generous here I think, that under 4 hours should be attainable on most golf courses that we'd play. In a lot of cases I'd even go with well under 4 hours.

I'm not advocating people taking the piss, I'm making allowances for older members and beginners, and those who play at a decent pace albeit slower than the guy who's wife has him on the leash and clock.

It is a form of road rage, as you said people shouldn't be getting annoyed, it stems from entitlement and ownership, not getting their own way and a lack of control. They'd sooner get angry, do some sugarbowling, and blow their round (and then blame everyone else for their childish indiscipline).

LuckyGent88

Some lad timed Bryson in Atlanta.

Bryson DeChambeau average shot times at East Lake.

Drives: 31.58 seconds
Approaches: 43.57 seconds
50 yards and under: 46.89 seconds
Putts: 1 minute, 21 seconds

Players are generally expected to hit within 40 seconds.

koheim

LuckyGent88 wrote: »

Some lad timed Bryson in Atlanta.

Bryson DeChambeau average shot times at East Lake.

Drives: 31.58 seconds
Approaches: 43.57 seconds
50 yards and under: 46.89 seconds
Putts: 1 minute, 21 seconds

Players are generally expected to hit within 40 seconds.

But his group played the round in 3 hours and 29 minutes, that is far from slow. To time each shot individually makes absolutely no sense, you need more time on difficult shots.
No slow play this week, problem is when the field is too big, with 160 players there is not room to move

GreeBo

LuckyGent88 wrote: »

Some lad timed Bryson in Atlanta.

Bryson DeChambeau average shot times at East Lake.

Drives: 31.58 seconds
Approaches: 43.57 seconds
50 yards and under: 46.89 seconds
Putts: 1 minute, 21 seconds

Players are generally expected to hit within 40 seconds.

For how much of that 1:21 putting time were the others waiting for him though?

I could take 4 mins to hit my shot, but 3.5 of that are standing beside my ball while my partners play...is that slow?

Bryson is slow, its bloody obvious when you watch him. People making excuses for him is exactly why there's slow play, if you don't see a problem with it you're probably slow yourself.

GreeBo

AdamD wrote: »

Bryson is slow, its bloody obvious when you watch him. People making excuses for him is exactly why there's slow play, if you don't see a problem with it you're probably slow yourself.

If he takes 50 second on every shot but can play a round of golf in 2.5 hours on his own, then he is not slow.

He hits 70 shots in a round, if he takes 2 minutes every shot then thats still only 2 hours 20 minutes...professional rounds are up at 5 hours, so whats happening for the other 2 hours 40 minutes?
If its taking someone nearly 3 hours to just walk a golf course they need to hurry the hell up.

Speeding up the already fastest bit doesnt buy you anything, you need to make the slowest bit faster.

This is why everyone who knows what slow golf actually means talks about things like "being ready to play", "leaving your stuff in the correct location", "ready golf" and rarely talks about the guy who takes a minute to actually hit the ball. Sure it can be annoying, but if 40s of that minute are happening while someone else is hitting, who cares?

GreeBo

GreeBo wrote: »

If he takes 50 second on every shot but can play a round of golf in 2.5 hours on his own, then he is not slow.

He hits 70 shots in a round, if he takes 2 minutes every shot then thats still only 2 hours 20 minutes...professional rounds are up at 5 hours, so whats happening for the other 2 hours 40 minutes?
If its taking someone nearly 3 hours to just walk a golf course they need to hurry the hell up.

Speeding up the already fastest bit doesnt buy you anything, you need to make the slowest bit faster.

This is why everyone who knows what slow golf actually means talks about things like "being ready to play", "leaving your stuff in the correct location", "ready golf" and rarely talks about the guy who takes a minute to actually hit the ball. Sure it can be annoying, but if 40s of that minute are happening while someone else is hitting, who cares?

Brooks Koepka has made it pretty clear that those 40 seconds aren't happening when someone else is hitting and that's a major part of the issue.

Miley Byrne

GreeBo wrote: »

For how much of that 1:21 putting time were the others waiting for him though?

I could take 4 mins to hit my shot, but 3.5 of that are standing beside my ball while my partners play...is that slow?

I presume that fella began the timer when Bryson's 40 second allowance would have begun. Otherwise it would be pointless. And his results proved what most of us know anyway without ever actually timing him: that Bryson is slow. Anyone who draws any other conclusion has their head in the sand.

From my experience, fellas that are slow in hitting the shots are also normally* slow around the golf course.



*before anyone takes me up on that, I said normally, not always. And just from my experience.

GreeBo

AdamD wrote: »

Brooks Koepka has made it pretty clear that those 40 seconds aren't happening when someone else is hitting and that's a major part of the issue.

And Bryson has made it clear that its other who are doing the 2.5 hours of walking and he ends up waiting for them...

Miley Byrne

GreeBo wrote: »

And Bryson has made it clear that its other who are doing the 2.5 hours of walking and he ends up waiting for them...

So Bryson is NOT slow, is it?

GreeBo

Miley Byrne wrote: »

I presume that fella began the timer when Bryson's 40 second allowance would have begun. Otherwise it would be pointless. And his results proved what most of us know anyway without ever actually timing him: that Bryson is slow. Anyone who draws any other conclusion has their head in the sand.

You are missing my point though.
Time spent hitting the ball is a fraction of the overall round time, even if you are taking 1 minute per shot.
It's far better to speed up the slow bit (the non hitting bit) than to shave 10 seconds off the hitting time.

If Byron goes from 60s/shot to 30s/shot you save a whopping 35 minutes per round.
It's still taking them over 4 hours to play...so why not tackle that?



/btw I'm being Devils Advocate here, but I do think he has a point.
No point in taking 10s /shot and then sauntering down the fairway.