Electro osmosis damp proofing - does it work?

v638sg7k1a92bx

Does anyone have any experience with these? We have rising damp in the walls in the basement and considering this as a solution.

my3cents

Here's one guys opinion

v638sg7k1a92bx

my3cents wrote: »

Here's one guys opinion

Saw those videos thanks. I've read other websites where people said they were great.

my3cents

Baylor Angry Pumice wrote: »

Saw those videos thanks. I've read other websites where people said they were great.

People are stupid. It they have paid out good money then of course they think they are great its either that or admit they are stupid. If there wasn't a problem in the first place then any application of snake oil will fix it.

v638sg7k1a92bx

my3cents wrote: »

People are stupid. It they have paid out good money then of course they think they are great its either that or admit they are stupid. If there wasn't a problem in the first place then any application of snake oil will fix it.

Is the snake oil a type of DPC membrane?

my3cents

Baylor Angry Pumice wrote: »

Is the snake oil a type of DPC membrane?

Sorry snake oil :pac:

listermint

Love Boards :P :eek:

Back Home

Does Electro osmosis damp proofing work? NO.
You do not have rising damp, you have a leak, or water ingress from outside, rising damp does not exist.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Back Home wrote: »

Does Electro osmosis damp proofing work? NO.
You do not have rising damp, you have a leak, or water ingress from outside, rising damp does not exist.

Do you mean that there is no such thing as rising damp or that there is no rising damp in this instance?

Back Home

Baylor Angry Pumice wrote: »

Do you mean that there is no such thing as rising damp or that there is no rising damp in this instance?

Your first question answers the second.

my3cents

Baylor Angry Pumice wrote: »

Do you mean that there is no such thing as rising damp or that there is no rising damp in this instance?

There is no such thing as rising damp. There is damp that "arises" from lots of other causes but rarely if ever does damp climb up your walls from the surrounding ground and into your house.

I'll give you an example. I have an outside water pipe that has a pin hole in it, I must get around to fixing (noticed a month ago now ), its made the side wall of an old barn soaking wet. The barn also has no DPC yet apart from the area that the water actually hits the wall is bone dry. If rising damp existed why hasn't water wicked its way up the whole block work wall?

my3cents

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/property-rising-damp-no-such-thing-1295773.html.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Back Home wrote: »

Your first question answers the second.

Understand that water cannot rise by itself but I have a basement below ground level approx 7m x 6m, terraced, on a main road. The basements on either side have been filled in and there is no water services in the basement but the walls are really damp over a metre high all round. There is a concrete floor approx 40cm thick and there is no pooling water on the ground which is in better condition than the walls.

The water is coming from somewhere but can it be the case that there is water in the earth that will always penetrate through the walls as I can't figure out where the water is coming from?

Back Home

Tough one to call without a visual, but all problems can be solved if you throw enough money at it. You need expert help, but not damp proof companies.

my3cents

Baylor Angry Pumice wrote: »

Understand that water cannot rise by itself but I have a basement below ground level approx 7m x 6m, terraced, on a main road. The basements on either side have been filled in and there is no water services in the basement but the walls are really damp over a metre high all round. There is a concrete floor approx 40cm thick and there is no pooling water on the ground which is in better condition than the walls.

The water is coming from somewhere but can it be the case that there is water in the earth that will always penetrate through the walls as I can't figure out where the water is coming from?

That isn't rising damp is it. Even if it worked electro osmosis isn't going to help you with that.

It may be a hint if the neighbors have filled in their basements.

Better ventilation that ventilates all the way down to the floor or a heat recovery system that removes damp air and replaces it with warmer air from around the house might also help.

v638sg7k1a92bx

my3cents wrote: »

That isn't rising damp is it. Even if it worked electro osmosis isn't going to help you with that.

It may be a hint if the neighbors have filled in their basements.

Better ventilation that ventilates all the way down to the floor or a heat recovery system that removes damp air and replaces it with warmer air from around the house might also help.

So what't the jaysus solution. Would a concrete screed with underground heating help?

The walls need to be re-plastered and I'm opening up the floor at ground level to allow light down into the basement almost like a mezzanine. So that in itself will imporve the ventialition significanlty but will the walls not always be damp because the basement is below ground level and although the water will always be there would a damp course of tanking the walls at least keep it at bay?

my3cents

Baylor Angry Pumice wrote: »

So what't the jaysus solution. Would a concrete screed with underground heating help?

If they have any covering on them then clear the walls off first. That will let you know exactly how bad the problem is. You still need to increase ventilation one way or another.

Heating might help but don't jump to any solution until you have ventilated the area well for at least a month.

If your problem doesn't get better with ventilation then see what a dehumidifier will do? Thats not a long term solution but if the walls dry up as a result then the moisture isn't coming through the walls.

Concrete is exactly the wrong material to be using. You need a breathable finish like lime plaster with lime paint as a finish if it must be finished. Heat is never going to hurt but may just be a waste of money if you don't get to the root cause.

The point is these systems are sold to people like you who don't really know what is causing the problem and just want a solution.

v638sg7k1a92bx

my3cents wrote: »

If they have any covering on them then clear the walls off first. That will let you know exactly how bad the problem is. You still need to increase ventilation one way or another.

Heating might help but don't jump to any solution until you have ventilated the area well for at least a month.

If your problem doesn't get better with ventilation then see what a dehumidifier will do? Thats not a long term solution but if the walls dry up as a result then the moisture isn't coming through the walls.

Concrete is exactly the wrong material to be using. You need a breathable finish like lime plaster with lime paint as a finish if it must be finished. Heat is never going to hurt but may just be a waste of money if you don't get to the root cause.

The point is these systems are sold to people like you who don't really know what is causing the problem and just want a solution.

Understood which is why I was sceptical of the osmosis in the first place. The idea of magnetic fields repelling water didn't seem plausible.

I have this dehumidifier but thought it might be a bit small for the area?

There's actually no treatment on the walls just block and brick in some places but the floor is a 40cm concrete floor, would a screed of lime plaster on the floor be suitable for walking on?

v638sg7k1a92bx

Back Home wrote: »

Tough one to call without a visual, but all problems can be solved if you throw enough money at it. You need expert help, but not damp proof companies.

Who are the experts then? Spoke to an architect and they suggested a damp proofing company.

my3cents

Baylor Angry Pumice wrote: »

Who are the experts then? Spoke to an architect and they suggested a damp proofing company.

You are there on the spot and if not living there yet should be able to visit regularly. So you are the one who needs can see how the problem exists and how small changes affect it. All a damp proofing company will do is come in and diagnose damp and recommend their solution.

Take a look at the Peter Ward videos I linked too understand what damp is.

This is a good case of a cellar...

and

read the replies for some extra info

Stoner

I treated a rising damp issue in my house a few years ago.

I documented it here, titled Damp Proofing

The room is only about 400mm lower than my neighbour.

But I certainly had rising damp from their driveway.

I stripped all the finish off the wall, fixed a couple of issues in the wall (solid brick used once)

I treated the rising damp at a level

I used tanking plaster and SBR after that

I stuck the plaster boards on with foam.

However yours is a basement

I've seen these treated in the uk, it can be very expensive, plastic membrane, collection traps all around, sump pumps to extract the water.

A basement probably doesn't really classify as a rising damp issues. Mine was as I had wet wall below dry wall. With rising damp you usually treat the wall about 200 or 300 mm above the source of dampness, the chemicals seal the wall and form a barrier against the rising moisture

Maybe membrane and tanking would work, but with some basements you just have to collect and pump out the water.

Look up the old post anyway and see what you think.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Stoner wrote: »

I treated a rising damp issue in my house a few years ago.

I documented it here, titled Damp Proofing

The room is only about 400mm lower than my neighbour.

But I certainly had rising damp from their driveway.

I stripped all the finish off the wall, fixed a couple of issues in the wall (solid brick used once)

I treated the rising damp at a level

I used tanking plaster and SBR after that

I stuck the plaster boards on with foam.

However yours is a basement

I've seen these treated in the uk, it can be very expensive, plastic membrane, collection traps all around, sump pumps to extract the water.

A basement probably doesn't really classify as a rising damp issues. Mine was as I had wet wall below dry wall. With rising damp you usually treat the wall about 200 or 300 mm above the source of dampness, the chemicals seal the wall and form a barrier against the rising moisture

Maybe membrane and tanking would work, but with some basements you just have to collect and pump out the water.

Look up the old post anyway and see what you think.

There's no such thing as rising damp.

v638sg7k1a92bx

my3cents wrote: »

You are there on the spot and if not living there yet should be able to visit regularly. So you are the one who needs can see how the problem exists and how small changes affect it. All a damp proofing company will do is come in and diagnose damp and recommend their solution.

Those videos are very useful thanks. The more I look at these, the more I think it has to do with ventilation. Just to clarify, if lime plaster is used on the walls, what do you use on the floor?

my3cents

Baylor Angry Pumice wrote: »

Those videos are very useful thanks. The more I look at these, the more I think it has to do with ventilation. Just to clarify, if lime plaster is used on the walls, what do you use on the floor?

The floor it what it is, if you want to go digging it up thats up to you but I think you said it was dry so I'd leave it as it is.

I'm not sure if underfloor heating would be a good idea worth researching but it might help air flow with hotter moist air raising to the level above.

Stoner

A heat recovery ventilation system is your only man here.

It can be expensive but you'd get great value form it in the rest of the house.

Friend put one into his house that had a mould issue about 2 years ago, a lindab unit, sorted it out straight away.

my3cents

Stoner wrote: »

A heat recovery ventilation system is your only man here.

It can be expensive but you'd get great value form it in the rest of the house.

Frowns put inw into his house that had a mould issue about 2 years ago, a lindab unit, sorted it out straight away.

I think thats part of the solution provided warmer dry air is pumped back in low down into the cellar to create good air movement.

Could be used along with under floor heating?

But before the OP decides on anything he has to be happy that he has found out what the root cause of the issue is and can understand how to fix it.

I wouldn't be happy for someone just to turn up with a moisture meter and say its damp and sell a "solution".

Calahonda52

Stoner wrote: »

A heat recovery ventilation system is your only man here.

It can be expensive but you'd get great value form it in the rest of the house.

Frowns put inw into his house that had a mould issue about 2 years ago, a lindab unit, sorted it out straight away.

+1
Rolls Royce addition, for rising damp, would be calistherm, or similar.

Edit: forgot there is no such thing as rising damp, moon landing, wet dxxxxs, sexual orientation other than male and female: only a creationist raison d'être etc:(

v638sg7k1a92bx

Stoner wrote: »

A heat recovery ventilation system is your only man here.

It can be expensive but you'd get great value form it in the rest of the house.

Frowns put inw into his house that had a mould issue about 2 years ago, a lindab unit, sorted it out straight away.

What would be considered expensive - ballpark figures?

Stoner

I'd say about 2K for the kit.

Two big holes in the walls and lots of ducting

farmerval

When I was in college doing Quantity Surveying we were told damp can rise to I can't remember for sure think it was 900mm or maybe 1200mm
Was explained to us that the reason why Victorian houses and great country houses had kitchens in the basements, relatively extremely expensive wall paper and wall hangings had to be more than 1200mm above ground level. We have all seen such houses with the six-eight steps up to the front door.

Big issues around damp in general is temperature differentials. If there is no differential then there's no reason for the damp to travel through the wall.

Damp can rise definitely, but whether that's your problem is another issue. What is the surrounding ground around your house like?

v638sg7k1a92bx

Just to clarify. This is a commercial retail unit ground floor and basement. It’s not a large unit (basement is approx 5m x 7m) but have been approached by a charity who want to rent the basement on a pro bono basis. We’ll be cutting a large hole in the ground floor to allow light into the basement level (like a mezzanine) but because the charity is paying for the costs we want to keep them to a minimum which is why I’m reluctant to rush into a damp proofing solution but at the same time because people will be working there I want to make sure it’s done properly.

my3cents

I would have thought some added ventilation when the window is cut in would also help. Only problem is you need to have a solution that your tenants can't mess up. Hardly unknown for staff to block up vents because they think that will make the place warmer only to create problems with condensation.

As I keep saying you need to get it dried out so you can see if the problem can be solved with heat and ventilation. Best option I can think of is to increase ventilation and put in a dehumidifier in one corner asap and keep checking to see if it makes any improvement.

One little test you can do for damp with no tools is to stick a sheet of plastic over an area you think is damp (also a test for the floor) then the following day take it off. If its really damp you will have water on the back of the plastic and even on the wall. If its bone dry what you are seeing on the wall isn't damp and only salt deposits or mold.

Also get yourself a cheap humidity meter (I got one from Amazon for my son for checking the humidity for hatching eggs £20 on Amazon worked great) and check the humidity over a period of time. If the walls are damp then humidity near them will be well over 50%. You could also get someone to do a proper carbide damp test (as shown in the videos). It may well be that the walls really are damp but if the results just prove the problem is condensation and lack of ventilation you can breath a big sigh of relief and know that you don't need to worry about damp proofing.

Which obviously raised the question how do you know its damp, can you feel it on the wall or is the wall moldy or has salt deposits. Mold more often than not indicates condensation rather than damp coming in through walls. A cold wall will also often feel damp.

v638sg7k1a92bx

my3cents wrote: »

I would have thought some added ventilation when the window is cut in would also help. Only problem is you need to have a solution that your tenants can't mess up. Hardly unknown for staff to block up vents because they think that will make the place warmer only to create problems with condensation.

As I keep saying you need to get it dried out so you can see if the problem can be solved with heat and ventilation. Best option I can think of is to increase ventilation and put in a dehumidifier in one corner asap and keep checking to see if it makes any improvement.

One little test you can do for damp with no tools is to stick a sheet of plastic over an area you think is damp (also a test for the floor) then the following day take it off. If its really damp you will have water on the back of the plastic and even on the wall. If its bone dry what you are seeing on the wall isn't damp and only salt deposits or mold.

Also get yourself a cheap humidity meter (I got one from Amazon for my son for checking the humidity for hatching eggs £20 on Amazon worked great) and check the humidity over a period of time. If the walls are damp then humidity near them will be well over 50%. You could also get someone to do a proper carbide damp test (as shown in the videos). It may well be that the walls really are damp but if the results just prove the problem is condensation and lack of ventilation you can breath a big sigh of relief and know that you don't need to worry about damp proofing.

Which obviously raised the question how do you know its damp, can you feel it on the wall or is the wall moldy or has salt deposits. Mold more often than not indicates condensation rather than damp coming in through walls. A cold wall will also often feel damp.

The walls feel really damp, sticky and crumble to the touch.
I forgot I had taken some pictures earlier, here they are https://imgur.com/a/cgkaAJj

In terms a dehumidifier, would I need to get an industrial unit down there or would domestic suffice?

Stoner

A quick point.

There appears to be a mishmash of blocks in use here. Some types of stone and blocks can be a conduit for letting water in.

I would definitely consider painting on SBR and the same for the tanking plaster, you can paint that on too.

You clean the wall, tank it then SBR clear coat.

SBR and possibly stick on plaster board with a vapour proof back with foam.

Do not drill the walls for anything after that. Stick on plasterboard, surface electrical services and plumbing coming from the ceiling down, have it at high level.

Of course follow the other advice to see if you can find a source for the water and stop it

But what I've mentioned will help I think if you are after a budget attempt.

You can mix SBR into leveling compound for the floor too.

Have a look at my old thread on it, all be it I'd a simpler problem and I'm no expert, I got good advice from the suppliers. As hinted at above you'll get all sorts of advice on this many will be expensive, but this suggestion is an attempt to tank the space and to put a thin layer of plastic like material on over it, mostly it can be achieved with brushes.

I'd ask the lads in the suppliers too. They may have an excellent chemical solution.


Let us know what they say if you do call them.

Calahonda52

if the substrate is not good stable enough, then the SBR may just peel off in time, especially if there is any hydrostatic head.
Having said that, the pictures don't look too bad.
Is the paint oil based?
Is it sticking on well or flakey?

my3cents

At this stage I wouldn't rush into tanking because this is the one chance you have to find out what the real problem is. Tanking may be the answer but it will also at least temporarily cover over the problem. That really doesn't look that bad and that walls look in much better condition than I expected.

It almost looks to me like that tap in the second picture is leaking and adding to the problem but that also looks like it might be an old oil pipe for heating?

There also looks to be drain in the third picture, thats interesting and needs investigating as to why its there. For example it could be a proper foul drain and part of the damp issue or it could be a drain to allow the cellar to drain after a flood - meaning its know to flood.

The pics are a little low down to see any sign of ventilation but ventilation would still be my first response because until thats done you can't really make an informed decision.

Any dehumidifier is going to help, even if it just shows you that its pulling massive amounts of water out of the air. The problem may just be that a dehumidifier needs checking daily and I don't know you are in a position to do that. If that drain exists and isn't part of the problem you could set up a dehumidifier to use it as a water outlet.

At this stage if you don't know the history of that cellar and given the neighboring ones are filled in I'd want to find out if there is any history of that cellar flooding when there is a lot of rain. I had a cellar like that in the UK, it only flooded every couple of years after prolonged rain but a couple of foot of water isn't funny. If the cellar is in an area called something like Spring Field Road or Well Street take the hint. If it does flood its obviously a bit more than a tanking job to keep it out.

v638sg7k1a92bx

my3cents wrote: »

At this stage I wouldn't rush into tanking because this is the one chance you have to find out what the real problem is. Tanking may be the answer but it will also at least temporarily cover over the problem. That really doesn't look that bad and that walls look in much better condition than I expected.

It almost looks to me like that tap in the second picture is leaking and adding to the problem but that also looks like it might be an old oil pipe for heating?

There also looks to be drain in the third picture, thats interesting and needs investigating as to why its there. For example it could be a proper foul drain and part of the damp issue or it could be a drain to allow the cellar to drain after a flood - meaning its know to flood.

The pics are a little low down to see any sign of ventilation but ventilation would still be my first response because until thats done you can't really make an informed decision.

Any dehumidifier is going to help, even if it just shows you that its pulling massive amounts of water out of the air. The problem may just be that a dehumidifier needs checking daily and I don't know you are in a position to do that. If that drain exists and isn't part of the problem you could set up a dehumidifier to use it as a water outlet.

At this stage if you don't know the history of that cellar and given the neighboring ones are filled in I'd want to find out if there is any history of that cellar flooding when there is a lot of rain. I had a cellar like that in the UK, it only flooded every couple of years after prolonged rain but a couple of foot of water isn't funny. If the cellar is in an area called something like Spring Field Road or Well Street take the hint. If it does flood its obviously a bit more than a tanking job to keep it out.

Never floods and those drains are for waste water. The tap that you see there has no water supply, it’s been disconnected for donkeys years.

Going to get the dehumidifier down there and run it for a few hours and gauge the water extraction.

my3cents

Don't forget that you need a bit of heat for a dehumidifier to work efficiently. Another thing to check is the temperature down there at just above floor level, middle and just below ceiling. A decent difference between the floor and ceiling could (only could) be the reason for the damp on the walls lower down.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Calahonda52 wrote: »

if the substrate is not good stable enough, then the SBR may just peel off in time, especially if there is any hydrostatic head.
Having said that, the pictures don't look too bad.
Is the paint oil based?
Is it sticking on well or flakey?

The walls are sticky and crumbly to the touch. Does that indicate an like based paint?

v638sg7k1a92bx

my3cents wrote: »

Don't forget that you need a bit of heat for a dehumidifier to work efficiently. Another thing to check is the temperature down there at just above floor level, middle and just below ceiling. A decent difference between the floor and ceiling could (only could) be the reason for the damp on the walls lower down.

I haven’t noticed a significant difference in the temperature between the two levels.

my3cents

Baylor Angry Pumice wrote: »

I haven’t noticed a significant difference in the temperature between the two levels.

So possibly (very likely) condensation at the lower level.

Don't take anything I say as gospel, I'm just trying to get you to get a good idea of what the problem is so you can make an informed decision as to the best course of action.

my3cents

Baylor Angry Pumice wrote: »

The walls are sticky and crumbly to the touch. Does that indicate an like based paint?

Any idea how old the paint is? The older the better really if its still in that shape after years and years it really isn't bad at all. A really old paint could be lime bases, breathable and would be sticky and crumbly by now. The moisture in it could make the lime sticky.

v638sg7k1a92bx

my3cents wrote: »

Any idea how old the paint is? The older the better really if its still in that shape after years and years it really isn't bad at all. A really old paint could be lime bases, breathable and would be sticky and crumbly by now. The moisture in it could make the lime sticky.

The paint job is at least 15 years old. That’s when the previous tenant moved in and they haven’t touched the basement as it was just hoarded with junk for 15 years. Probably even longer.

my3cents

Baylor Angry Pumice wrote: »

The paint job is at least 15 years old. That’s when the previous tenant moved in and they haven’t touched the basement as it was just hoarded with junk for 15 years. Probably even longer.

The age might have given away the type of paint. At 15 years even 25 its probably not an old lime based paint. Is it plasticky or just brittle if you get good size flake and try and break it?

But knowing the type of paint won't solve the problem. Its just that if that paint is over 15 years old an if its a modern paint then an awful lot of it is still on the wall if the problem is water pushing through from the outside.

From my limited knowledge (remember I'm not a qualified expert just a keyboard warrior) I think the main problem is condensation through lack of ventilation.

Personally I'd go for an older lime based or at least breathable paint on the walls (strip as much of the old paint off as possible) and heat and ventilation, others will disagree it really is personal preference but then lime based paints will rub off on your cloths so not really any good in an office.

Positive extraction of air (as in the video) provided fresh air can get it may also be useful in lieu of a more expensive heat exchange system.

I quite sure most of the damp specialists you could get in will tell you its damp from the outside and will recommend some sort of damp proofing. You just need to decide for yourself if that really is the correct answer and at this stage you should be armed with enough information not to be conned into something that is just going to be unnecessary expense.

Tanking all the inside of the walls isn't a wrong solution because you need to do something to the walls to make them presentable but I strongly suspect if the cellar can be ventilated correctly and heated most if not all the problem will go away.