Claims Crisis - Major Insurer pulls out saying claims culture and awards a joke

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/thousands-of-jobs-at-risk-after-main-insurer-for-leisure-sector-pulls-out-38329493.html

Thousands of jobs at risk after main insurer for leisure sector pulls out

But she said British insurers regard this market as a "basket case" due to high awards and frequent claims.

UK operator LeisureInsure said it will not quote for new business from this week, and from the end of the month will cease all renewals.

It was one of the last few insurers covering event companies, bouncy castle operators, leisure centres, yoga classes, soccer teachers, drama classes, some play centres and a large number of leisure companies.

Fair play tbh - we need reality checks.

And some defending the stupid scale of claims and the amounts being awarded.

Here is the rub - it costs all of us more in insurance and ultimately jobs and livelihoods.

And yet there are some who will defend FG to the hilt, fraudulent claims brushed under the carpet is the party line of callous indifference.

Kermit.de.frog

Half a billion paid out in claims last year (not including out of court settlements!)


It's an actual crisis. That is damage, real damage to everyone in the country financially.

McMurphy

The fish rots from the head, when you have ministers - meps and TDs on the take for easy money, then you shouldn't be surprised when the everyday plebs do be at it too.

If those who make the law, abuse the law, they should face sanctions much more severe than the rest of us, as heard in an interview a few months back - as they're public figures, so should be held to a higher standard than the rest of us.

lola85

Report that maria bailey is been booted out of FG this morning.

McMurphy

Alan Farrell must feel like the cat who got the cream so.

Kivaro

lola85 wrote: »

Report that maria bailey is been booted out of FG this morning.

Not a chance. Varadkar is a coward and will not do that.
What will happen is that he will remove the party whip from her ........... and here's the kicker ............ for an indeterminate amount of time.

Meanwhile, Fine Gael's continued response to the insurance compensation crisis in Ireland can best be described as:

Faugheen

lola85 wrote: »

Report that maria bailey is been booted out of FG this morning.

The Governemnt is threadbare as it is. Not a chance Varadkar will do that.

2 things

1. Insurance companies often do not contest claims: Rather pay out and recoup from the customer. Then complain about settlements
2. Insurance companies report next to no cases of potential insurance fraud, to AGS, because of this there is no penalty to Swing cases

Widdensushi

Deleted User wrote: »

2 things

1. Insurance companies often do not contest claims: Rather pay out and recoup from the customer. Then complain about settlements
2. Insurance companies report next to no cases of potential insurance fraud, to AGS, because of this there is no penalty to Swing cases

Obviously they have the sums done on which option is cheaper ,if they fought them all the cost would be crazy

They obviously do report some fraud and they see what happens from that that it is pointless .

Sonny noggs

[Deleted User] wrote: »

2 things

1. Insurance companies often do not contest claims: Rather pay out and recoup from the customer. Then complain about settlements
2. Insurance companies report next to no cases of potential insurance fraud, to AGS, because of this there is no penalty to Swing cases

Do they do number 1 because the judges are so unpredictable that in even the most clear cut case the decision can go either way? Regardless of the facts...

Sonny noggs

Widdensushi wrote: »

Obviously they have the sums done on which option is cheaper ,if they fought them all the cost would be crazy

They obviously do report some fraud and they see what happens from that that it is pointless .

The insurance companies also needs to start reporting ‘suspect’ legal professionals to their respective regulatory bodies.

Plumbthedepths

Deleted User wrote:

And yet there are some who will defend FG to the hilt, fraudulent claims brushed under the carpet is the party line of callous indifference.

It's ok Leo took the party whip off Bailey, that'll fix it. Farrell and Madigan breathing a sigh of relief.

sydthebeat

[Deleted User] wrote: »

2 things

1. Insurance companies often do not contest claims: Rather pay out and recoup from the customer. Then complain about settlements
2. Insurance companies report next to no cases of potential insurance fraud, to AGS, because of this there is no penalty to Swing cases

100% agreed.

We had a claim made against us in my work... Competely spurious as the issue was directly caused by the claimant themselves.... We vociferously argued this with the insurance company who told us that they were going to pay out and if we wanted to challenge it in court they would refuse to indemnify us.

They paid out meekly.

Raised our PI insurance to such a level that we had the total amount of the claim paid back to then within 3 years...

Insurance is the only industry you cannot make a loss in.

Insurance companies go out of business due to bad gambling in their side.

ChikiChiki

lola85 wrote: »

Report that maria bailey is been booted out of FG this morning.

Doubtful.

lola85

Pearse Doherty also showed the insurance companies are only happy to pretend fraud is the reason they are ripping people off.

One big gravy train for a lot of people.

Widdensushi

Widdensushi wrote: »

Obviously they have the sums done on which option is cheaper ,if they fought them all the cost would be crazy

They obviously do report some fraud and they see what happens from that that it is pointless .

They obviously cannot provided any evidence of either

Del2005

[Deleted User] wrote: »

2 things

1. Insurance companies often do not contest claims: Rather pay out and recoup from the customer. Then complain about settlements
2. Insurance companies report next to no cases of potential insurance fraud, to AGS, because of this there is no penalty to Swing cases

Do you know how much it costs to fight a case in our courts? With our out of touch judges if insurance companies fight they have to pay 2 legal teams and the huge payout if they loose, if they win they still have to pay for their legal team.

When judges make a ruling in favour of the insurance company they never charge the person making the fraudulent claim with purjury. So why should the insurance companies report suspect cases when bona fida fraudulent claims don't have any consequences for the person who lied?

The people making money out of this is the legal industry and they won't reform.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

[Deleted User] wrote: »

They obviously cannot provided any evidence of either

Provide evidence of fraud? Shouldn’t the AGS be investigating.

The real problem is the judiciary. We by and large have the same laws as Britain but we have a non functional judiciary.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

lola85 wrote: »

Pearse Doherty also showed the insurance companies are only happy to pretend fraud is the reason they are ripping people off.

One big gravy train for a lot of people.

Maybe, but in this case the insurance company is pulling out.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Provide evidence of fraud? Shouldn’t the AGS be investigating.

The real problem is the judiciary. We by and large have the same laws as Britain but we have a non functional judiciary.

They have to report it to AGS first,but I was referring to the statement that they have evidence that AGS will do nothing about it

Sonny noggs

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Maybe, but in this case the insurance company is pulling out.

The insurance company was making too much money, they couldn’t cope so are pulling out.

1641

An insurance claim can be rejected if the court can be convinced that it is bogus/fradulent on the “balance of probability" (more then 50/50). However, if prosecuted for fraud it would have to be proven "beyond reasonable doubt", which is a much higher standard.

But the size of awards of Ireland must be more of an issue. For example, the average "soft tissue" injury award is about €17,000 as against about €4,000 in the UK. This incentivises our claims culture. The Law Society has been fighting consistently against bringing in controls on this.

biko

Maria Bailey, now with source
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/maria-bailey-set-to-lose-fg-whip-over-swing-compensation-claim-1.3961865

Fine Gael is set to remove the party whip in the Dáil from Dún Laoghaire TD Maria Bailey over her controversial personal injuries claim against a Dublin hotel.

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar is expected to announce next week what action will be taken against Ms Bailey on foot of an internal party report into her claim against The Dean hotel on Dublin’s Harcourt Street for falling off a swing.

punisher5112

Them pesky swings taking our TDs jobs.....

eagle eye

So this has turned into a FG witchhunt already.
Now I'm certainly not a fan of FG but this is much bigger than that. We have travellers and unemployed who are making claims left, right and centre.
It's widespread and it's got a lot to do with the same liberal Nazis that tell you not to dare say anything that's not positive about anybody they deem as a minority. The judges are afraid to tell them they don't believe them for fear of being shot down by these liberal groups.

1641

1641 wrote: »

An insurance claim can be rejected if the court can be convinced that it is bogus/fradulent on the “balance of probability" (more then 50/50). However, if prosecuted for fraud it would have to be proven "beyond reasonable doubt", which is a much higher standard.

But the size of awards of Ireland must be more of an issue. For example, the average "soft tissue" injury award is about €17,000 as against about €4,000 in the UK. This incentivises our claims culture. The Law Society has been fighting consistently against bringing in controls on this.

How many suspected claims have the insurance federation reported to AGS?

Plumbthedepths

eagle eye wrote:

So this has turned into a FG witchhunt already. Now I'm certainly not a fan of FG but this is much bigger than that. We have travellers and unemployed who are making claims left, right and centre. It's widespread and it's got a lot to do with the same liberal Nazis that tell you not to dare say anything that's not positive about anybody they deem as a minority. The judges are afraid to tell them they don't believe them for fear of being shot down by these liberal groups.

FG witch-hunt? You have FG claiming they were going to tackle high insurance costs and at the same time you have two FG TD's involved in insurance fraud and a sitting FG minister cast as an ambulance chaser. FG only cared about insurance fraud until their own members were found to be fraudsters.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

FG witch-hunt? You have FG claiming they were going to tackle high insurance costs and at the same time you have two FG TD's involved in insurance fraud and a sitting FG minister cast as an ambulance chaser. FG only cared about insurance fraud until their own members were found to be fraudsters.

Its not a good look.

Balf

They presumably need to do something to draw attention away from Josepha Madigan.

Its also reported that Josepha looked after the initial claim to the PIAB for Maria. Does this mean that Josepha provided the initial legal advice, to the effect that Maria should pursue the claim?

More to see here. And the big picture issue won't go away either.

Plumbthedepths

Balf wrote:

Its also reported that Josepha looked after the initial claim to the PIAB for Maria. Does this mean that Josepha provided the initial legal advice, to the effect that Maria should pursue the claim?

Bailey claimed on the SOR programme that she was assured she had an open and shut case. Bailey's problem was the Press-up group wouldn't roll over. The owner of said group has no love for FG considering how a pervious FG government tried to stitch him up.
I suspect ( and I 'm sure many others do aswell)Madigan advised her to pursue the claim assuming it owuld be settled out of court.

1641

“Hundreds of bouncy castle operators face going out of business following a decision by the industry’s main UK-based insurance provider to withdraw from the Irish market. .......
... Management at Pelican Promotions, a Co Louth company employing up to 36 people and with a store of 224 bouncy castles and inflatables, told their office staff the news on Thursday. “We have to close down,” said the family business owner Mandy Fee, leaving no room for doubt........
... As with other business owners, Ms Fee believes the scale of compensation payouts compared to elsewhere in Europe is to blame.”
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/hundreds-of-bouncy-castle-operators-may-go-out-of-business-1.3961880

eagle eye

Plumbthedepths wrote:

FG witch-hunt? You have FG claiming they were going to tackle high insurance costs and at the same time you have two FG TD's involved in insurance fraud and a sitting FG minister cast as an ambulance chaser. FG only cared about insurance fraud until their own members were found to be fraudsters.

And I'm not disagreeing with any of that but this thing is way bigger than a couple of TD's making a claim.

Sonny noggs

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Its not a good look.

Not unlike posters on the Mick Wallace / Claire Daily thread defending and deflecting by saying FG members did this and FG members did that.

Triangle

Deleted User wrote: »

2 things

1. Insurance companies often do not contest claims: Rather pay out and recoup from the customer. Then complain about settlements
2. Insurance companies report next to no cases of potential insurance fraud, to AGS, because of this there is no penalty to Swing cases

Reporting fraud to AGS is a relatively new thing.
Proving fraud is a costly business and only benefits solicitors as judges can be very favourable to the claimant. I.e. a whiplash claim can be settled for 21k. Going to court to prove there's no damage on a soft tissue injury is next to.impossible and would end up with a settlement of 30k+ after claimants and defence solicitors costs are taken into account

The insurance companies are mostly competing against each other and want lower prices so they can get the business. They're not cooperating together to falsely raise the prices.
There is an eu investigation into Irish insurers trying to limit others into the market though. But this is different than collaborating into raising prices.

Plumbthedepths

eagle eye wrote:

And I'm not disagreeing with any of that but this thing is way bigger than a couple of TD's making a claim.

What message do you think is sent out when three members of the government are part of the claims culture. 2 TD's involved in attempted insurance fraud and a sitting minister identified as an ambulance chaser. Does this inspire confidence in the business community that the government is serious about tackling insurance costs and claims. Personally the government has no credibility.

Donald Trump

Sonny noggs wrote: »

Do they do number 1 because the judges are so unpredictable that in even the most clear cut case the decision can go either way? Regardless of the facts...

Often they will do number 1 and refuse to fight a claim even when the insured begs them to.....and then just proceed to up the insured's premium the next year.

suicide_circus

what clearly needs to happen is mass closures of leisure facilities, mass layoffs etc when businesses cant get insured. not until the political and legal classes are inconvenienced in their private lives will we see any reform

eagle eye

Plumbthedepths wrote:

What message do you think is sent out when three members of the government are part of the claims culture. 2 TD's involved in attempted insurance fraud and a sitting minister identified as an ambulance chaser. Does this inspire confidence in the business community that the government is serious about tackling insurance costs and claims. Personally the government has no credibility.

Do you know what this thread is about?

Donald Trump

Balf wrote: »

They presumably need to do something to draw attention away from Josepha Madigan.

Its also reported that Josepha looked after the initial claim to the PIAB for Maria. Does this mean that Josepha provided the initial legal advice, to the effect that Maria should pursue the claim?

More to see here. And the big picture issue won't go away either.

I don't get the outrage at this Madigan one. She was the solicitor I gather. While a solicitor should obviously not engage in fraud, it would be their responsibility to represent their client and advise them on legal things. So if a client comes in and says "I got some whiplash, what can I do" then it is the solicitors job to advise them. But I'd imagine they remain at the direction of the client. If the client gets a stupid payout, then that is the fault of the judge, not the solicitor.

Fann Linn

Nothing on the RTE news or website about this. Everything from moon landings to ships being hijacked and on the national news, road deaths to Padraig Pearse's school report.

A non issue except for the people it affects.

McMurphy

Fann Linn wrote: »

Nothing on the RTE news or website about this. Everything from moon landings to ships being hijacked and on the national news, road deaths to Padraig Pearse's school report.

A non issue except for the people it affects.

Problem that FG have, is that insurance fraud affects everyone.

From the homeowner who needs to insure his home and contents, to the motorist who faces compulsory insurance, right down to a kid buying a bag of sweets which retail at a certain price to factor in insurance costs for the shop keeper.

Insurance fraud has a knock on effect to all of us. There's no escaping it.

This is one they're not going to be able to shake off too easily.

Sonny noggs

Donald Trump wrote: »

Often they will do number 1 and refuse to fight a claim even when the insured begs them to.....and then just proceed to up the insured's premium the next year.

Because they know the odds are stacked against them by the court system. Even if they win or the case is thrown out, their costs are not awarded to them in 90% plus of cases (or they are not recoverable). So with the court system as it is they do a cost benefit analysis and settle for X rather than risk ‘winning’ and it costing them X plus Y.

Plumbthedepths

eagle eye wrote:

Do you know what this thread is about?

Yeah businesses closing due to insurance costs, problem is though the government won't tackle it as it has serving members who are part of the problem. Do you not see the connection?

Donald Trump

Do this UK crowd have a European presence otherwise?

There is also a good chance they are getting out because of Brexit. And maybe their profits here in a niche area just doesn't justify the cost of setting up an Irish (i.e. EU) base for operations here.

Fann Linn

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Yeah businesses closing due to insurance costs, problem is though the government won't tackle it as it has serving members who are part of the problem. Do you not see the connection?

Pretty much, that's it in a nutshell.

eagle eye

Plumbthedepths wrote:

Yeah businesses closing due to insurance costs, problem is though the government won't tackle it as it has serving members who are part of the problem. Do you not see the connection?

No this thread is about an insurance company pulling out if Ireland.
This is a widespread issue.
There already is a thread about the FG thing. This is about insurance not being even available for businesses.

Plumbthedepths

eagle eye wrote:

No this thread is about an insurance company pulling out if Ireland. This is a widespread issue. There already is a thread about the FG thing. This is about insurance not being even available for businesses.

Are you trying to moderate the thread?

Triangle

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Problem that FG have, is that insurance fraud affects everyone.

From the homeowner who needs to insure his home and contents, to the motorist who faces compulsory insurance, right down to a kid buying a bag of sweets which retail at a certain price to factor in insurance costs for the shop keeper.

Insurance fraud has a knock on effect to all of us. There's no escaping it.

This is one they're not going to be able to shake off too easily.

And it's not just fraud. It's the level of payouts!

eagle eye

Plumbthedepths wrote:

Are you trying to moderate the thread?

No, I'm just pointing out what it's about for those ranting on about Fine Gael. I understand how people see instance and hop straight on the Bailey thing but this topic is a whole lot bigger than that.
We need to discuss what has to be done here.
As I said there are a already a Bailey thread. Can we leave that stuff there and discuss the solutions to this huge problem?
I've already put forward my belief that the liberals with their power are helping these claims along.

Donald Trump

Sonny noggs wrote: »

Because they know the odds are stacked against them by the court system. Even if they win or the case is thrown out, their costs are not awarded to them in 90% plus of cases. So with the court system as it is they do a cost benefit analysis and settle for X rather than risk ‘winning’ and it costing them X plus Y.

Yeah but they still stick it to the policyholder afterwards................. The oul fella brushed the bumper of a car a few years back with the wheel of the trailer. no damage done, apart from maybe rubbing a bit of dust off the bumper. The car was about 15 years old and wrecked. "Partner" of the car owner arrives down a few days later and demands over 2k for a respraying for the entire car plus a set of new bumpers plus new bonnet. Had gotten some quote from a garage. Oul' fella rang insurance and they didn't give a shite. Just told him that he could either pay it himself or put it through the insurance and lose his no claims bonus which would cost him more over time. They said they would not send an assessor out.



Insurance companies have the expertise and resources to fight such claims. When they won't fight the smaller ones (smaller to them) because they can push the cost onto the insured, then they have no justification complaining when that encourages a culture of scamming.


Oul' fella just handed over a cheque. I was fairly pissed off as I would have insisted myself that I'd pay the garage directly. Fair enough, it would still cost the same money but the bollix scammer wouldn't end up with 2k in his pocket. (It was her car but the cheque was to be made out to him...). It would be 2k spent on a car that would be worth less than that when the job was done.


On the other side of things, a relation recently had their car damaged while it was parked. Came back and the side was tore off it from a delivery truck. Knew what truck it was but truck owner refused to admit it happened. Insurance would pay for it, but would have lost no-claims bonus. No help or advice in putting pressure on the man who owned the truck.


Twice in the past I've been in cars that have been rear ended. Once when stopped at a roundabout as the passenger of a car when we were just shunted forward about a foot, and once when driving into the city from Dublin airport and traffic being stopped at the end of the motorway around the time of Port Tunnel work. Both times the damage was minor (at least cosmetically) and we didn't pursue it. Given the subsequent dealings with insurance, if it happened again I don't know if I'd be so quick to rule out the oul' whiplash to be honest. I'd have to wait and see. There is no good being decent and relaxed about things when something happens to you if you get no support and get fucked when you are on the other side of the equation.