N****r in a woodpile

Dante7

circadian wrote: »

Most people on here are familiar with your type too. Dickheads that like to try to defend the indefensible and play devils advocate. If you genuinely don't see the issue here then maybe you're part of the problem.

I am sure most people are familiar with my type. A normal person who calls bull**** on this and who has a problem with an historical phrase with absolutely no racist connotation being deemed as more offensive than actually calling someone a ****ing bitch.

Btw, you calling me a dickhead was more offensive than someone else using an historical phrase that wasn't targeted or meant to insult anyone. But you'll never understand that.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I had never even heard it. I had to look it up to find out what it meant.

Even now i am still not sure.

Wiki sez.

A ****** in the woodpile or a ****** in the fence is a figure of speech originating in the United States meaning "some fact of considerable importance that is not disclosed—something suspicious or wrong".[1]

Not sure how it applies here.

circadian

Dante7 wrote: »

I am sure most people are familiar with my type. A normal person who calls bull**** on this and who has a problem with an historical phrase with absolutely no racist connotation being deemed as more offensive than actually calling someone a ****ing bitch.

Btw, you calling me a dickhead was more offensive than someone else using an historical phrase that wasn't targeted or meant to insult anyone. But you'll never understand that.

I understand that at a personal level it's more insulting but on a generally speaking level it's nowhere near as offensive.

But, aye, you just keep going on as if you're the big man that tells it like it is and that's ****ing great, when in reality your "telling it like it is" is just you being completely out of touch with the majority of the population.

Dante7

Dante7 wrote:

I am sure most people are familiar with my type. A normal person who calls bull**** on this and who has a problem with an historical phrase with absolutely no racist connotation being deemed as more offensive than actually calling someone a ****ing bitch.

I dunno Dante. I normally don't find myself agreeing with odhinn but the word n1gger is undoubtedly an offensive word to use in this day and age.

I disagree that it should be a forbidden word, but I think that you should be aware of what will happen when you say it and it probably should not be used when describing a work colleague.

Calling someone a fuucking bitch is tame in comparison and is not only offensive because of its historical context, but offensive because he is seemingly unaware that it isn't ok to say without expecting backlash.

It was stupid. Not a sacking offense in my opinion but I wouldn't defend his use of it.

Tokyo

Mod: Next personal attack gets carded.

Dante7

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I dunno Dante. I normally don't find myself agreeing with odhinn but the word n1gger is undoubtedly an offensive word to use in this day and age.

I disagree that it should be a forbidden word, but I think that you should be aware of what will happen when you say it and it probably should not be used when describing a work colleague.

Calling someone a fuucking bitch is tame in comparison and is not only offensive because of its historical context, but offensive because he is seemingly unaware that it isn't ok to say without expecting backlash.

It was stupid. Not a sacking offense in my opinion but I wouldn't defend his use of it.

I think you are missing the point I originally tried to make. I didn't try try to defend the woodpile comment - never would. My point in my OP was that it was interesting how that comment was deemed more offensive than calling someone a ****ing bitch. A directed, offensive comment calling a woman a ****ing bitch is somehow less of a slur than using an age old phrase with absolutely no racist or insulting intent. That was my point, and that is where we are.

Btw, I didn't report anyone for comments. Not my style.

ILoveYourVibes

Dante7 wrote: »

You're just being offended on other people's behalf. Rural Irish people using the phrase ****** in a dog pile is not racist. There is no racist intent. Mens rea!

You are saying rural people are provincial simpletons. Which is an insult to rural people.

It's like saying they are so ignorant of the wider world they could not be aware enough of the wider racial implications of the phrase and so could not intend to be racist.

Its patronizing. Maybe you don't MEAN it to. But it makes a lot of presumptions about rural people most of which are not complimentary.

Dante7

Dante7 wrote:

Btw, I didn't report anyone for comments. Not my style.

Never thought you would.

Dante7 wrote:

I think you are missing the point I originally tried to make. I didn't try try to defend the woodpile comment - never would. My point in my OP was that it was interesting how that comment was deemed more offensive than calling someone a ****ing bitch. A directed, offensive comment calling a woman a ****ing bitch is somehow less of a slur than using an age old phrase with absolutely no racist or insulting intent. That was my point, and that is where we are.

Nah man. Perhaps I'm out of the loop but calling a woman a ****ing bitch is very low in the scale of insults.

I suppose it's all about percieved intent. For example, calling a black person a black bastar£ is insulting but the insult is technically the second word not the first. But the perception is that you are calling him the second word because of the first.

Anyway. ****ing bitch is not a comment I would get concerned about a politician using. ****** is.

Personally, i think the whole 'nigger' thing is generally blown waaay out of proportion. The Fawlty Towers example, where they retrospectively removed entire scenes because a character used the word in a comic sense, is one I have issue with, as it tries to imply that it was wrong to use the term back then, judging 'the olden days' by todays moral compass.


I have heard the word said a few times in my life, usually muttered by older people who don't mean any malice by it, but who just have it as part of their vocabulary as there was no issue with it in the past. I also played eeny-meeny and we had a nigger in there, and neither me, nor any of my friends, have turned out to be mad racists.


However, I do think this was a deliberately insulting (albeit not racist) remark, as it was specifically said about a black person. If he'd said it about anyone else, or if it was a comment or phrase he was known to say an awful lot, then I reckon he'd be excused. But he deliberately aimed the comment at a black person, which is why people are annoyed, and it's clear it was meant, perhaps not specifically as a racial slur (in that he doesn't like black people) but as a personal insult, nonetheless.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote:

Personally, i think the whole '******' thing is generally blown waaay out of proportion. The Fawlty Towers example, where they retrospectively removed entire scenes because a character used the word in a comic sense, is one I have issue with, as it tries to imply that it was wrong to use the term back then, judging 'the olden days' by todays moral compass.

I recently watched Mrs Doubtfire with my daughter. That film would be shredded to pieces by censors these days because of transphobic comments and subject matter.

I wonder are we actually more progressive or regressive these days.

Lackadaisical

I'd be extremely unimpressed with both the langauge and what sounds like a bullying context. Doesn't sound great for FG and would certainly have me questioning voting for a party that was tolerant of that kind of stuff. It's just not very civilised.

I mean seriously, who uses language like that to colleagues anywhere? You'd want to be pretty lacking in cop on to think that was acceptable and name-calling a colleague in any context is pretty nasty.

ILoveYourVibes

Deleted User wrote: »

I wonder are we actually more progressive or regressive these days.

I think the issue is people are mistaking reactionary for being progressive.

Exploding over something that is wrong isn't progressive. Living to make it gradually better is progressive.

Lackadaisical

Lackadaisical wrote:

I'd be extremely unimpressed with both the langauge and what sounds like a bullying context. Doesn't sound great for FG and would certainly have me questioning voting for a party that was tolerant of that kind of stuff. It's just not very civilised.

I kind of agree but in fairness, if one member making a bit of a ****ty comment makes you question voting for any party, you should question your voting criterion.

Dante7

[Deleted User] wrote: »

However, I do think this was a deliberately insulting (albeit not racist) remark, as it was specifically said about a black person. If he'd said it about anyone else, or if it was a comment or phrase he was known to say an awful lot, then I reckon he'd be excused. But he deliberately aimed the comment at a black person, which is why people are annoyed, and it's clear it was meant, perhaps not specifically as a racial slur (in that he doesn't like black people) but as a personal insult, nonetheless.

No, you are so wrong. And here is the crux of the matter. The comment was absolutely not made about a black person. It was made about a white woman. But somehow, using the N word in a collequail phrase, with absolutely no racist intention, trumps calling a woman a ****ing bitch. I just don't get it. Hence, the purpose of the thread.

Lackadaisical

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I kind of agree but in fairness, if one member making a bit of a ****ty comment makes you question voting for any party, you should question your voting criterion.

It would if they don't deal with it. I'd have a big issue with a party that tolerated that kind of thing. The bullying aspect is pretty bad too, not just the langauge.

pinkyeye

I think both comments are sackable offences tbf.

Anyone else who said these things in the work place would be sacked straight away without any process and rightly so.

Get a grip lads.

I get OP's point that the n word is getting more traction than the bitch comment but apparently he has denied saying the bitch word but not denied saying the N word so there's that.

To summarise, he deserves to be sacked either way.

pinkyeye

pinkyeye wrote:

To summarise, he deserves to be sacked either way.

I dunno. Sacking a politician for using unsavoury language while keeping politicians who break promises and abuse expenses is showing a strange priority.

StupidLikeAFox

Dante7 wrote: »

No, you are so wrong. And here is the crux of the matter. The comment was absolutely not made about a black person. It was made about a white woman. But somehow, using the N word in a collequail phrase, with absolutely no racist intention, trumps calling a woman a ****ing bitch. I just don't get it. Hence, the purpose of the thread.

First of all, you are the only one saying that "****** in a woodpile" is being treated as a greater offence than calling someone a "****ing bitch". You introduced that in the opening post and have been the only one pushing that line.

Secondly, that phrase is unnacceptable and racist. It reduces black people to a stereotype of being a slave regardless of the context it is used. I don't know how you can't see the nuance in that.

For example, if you heard someone say "as dumb as a paddy in a pub" once it might not bother you. However if suddenly this phrase creeped into the vernacular, if suddenly you were being reduced to a stereotype and equated to an idiot and/or an alcoholic by virtue of the fact you were born in Ireland, then you would rightly start getting pissed off. Then, if some English politician said "my opponent is as dumb as a paddy in a pub" how would that go down do you think? Do you think it would be fair that suddenly Irish people are being used as an analogy for being stupid?

The same goes for the word ******. Regardless of the context it is used in, it's a term that equates black people to slaves, property, less than human. There are black people in Ireland today who might face this kind of language and attitude on a regular basis. I don't think it's acceptable for elected officials (or anybody) to use this kind of language in any capacity. It was particularly unnecessary in the context it was used here and the defence of "sure it's only a phrase" doesn't really cut it

Shefwedfan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I kind of agree but in fairness, if one member making a bit of a ****ty comment makes you question voting for any party, you should question your voting criterion.

The main man has been caught a few times now with comments in the dail

When the clown at the top thinks it’s ok then the rest of the clowns follow

padd b1975

Rechuchote wrote: »

Um, no.

The phrase is a joking reference (haha, not) to runaway slaves desperately hiding among the logs waiting to be chopped, to evade their pursuers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/****_in_the_woodpile

*Ebony logs.

Lackadaisical

On reference to Fawlty Towers further back in the thread. That show was made 44 years ago, in a era when casual racism was common and it was aiming to portray Basil as an out of touch, obnoxious, highly strung, Little Englander with some kind of seriously odd views of many things and a rather bizarre set of personality disorders. He certainly wasn't written or played as someone you were supposed to find charming or some kind of portrait of what was normal, even for the mid 70s.

The line removed was from 1975 and was uttered by the Major and was meant to show the character as a racist but it was really a bridge too far for modern rebroadcast at prime time. It was probably reflective of its time and it was definitely written for an audience to laugh at the Major's crass, obsolete, obnoxious racism, but it was definitely dodgy script for post 1970s TV. It certainly wasn't trying to normalise the Major's comments as acceptable.

But I wouldn't take a mid 70s English sitcom that was probably trying to send up an old racist character as a reference for behaviour in a political party in 2019.

is_that_so

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The main man has been caught a few times now with comments in the dail

When the clown at the top thinks it’s ok then the rest of the clowns follow

I think you missed the point of the post you commented on. If you are looking for a reason not to vote for a particular party it makes a bit of sense. So ask yourself - is it loose-mouthed politicians or what they might do that decides your vote?

Shefwedfan

is_that_so wrote: »

I think you missed the point of the post you commented on. If you are looking for a reason not to vote for a particular party it makes a bit of sense. So ask yourself - is it loose-mouthed politicians or what they might do that decides your vote?

It should be combination.....on both fronts FG have shown they are useless

Odhinn

Dante7 wrote: »

Ok. Let's go. Why is "****** in the woodpile" an intentionally racist comment?

Because it is

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/****_in_the_woodpile

Lackadaisical

You'd also wonder how racist phrases from US history even got into any kind of use in rural Ireland. If anything, we should have a lot more solidarity with African Americans than most, given the misery that went on here over the centuries due to class and ethnic supremacists and sectarianism back in the day.

I mean, even Frederick Douglass came over here and spoke at Irish independence and human rights oriented events in the 1840s at the peak of the famine.

So to me it's doubly disgusting for an Irish person to absorb and adopt the racism of the US south and lose all sense of perspective about what our own history is too.

It's a very unpleasant saying and it should be consigned racist history.

whisky_galore

It was a favourite saying of a manager of a firm I worked for over 10 years ago. Used it to make him sound edgy. Probably uses it still.

Lackadaisical

I'm wondering though where did it come in from? Was some old film reference or something? Doesn't really make any sense in am Irish context. It's an old racist American phrase.

is_that_so

Lackadaisical wrote: »

You'd also wonder how racist phrases from US history even got into any kind of use in rural Ireland. If anything, we should have a lot more solidarity with African Americans than most, given the misery that went on here over the centuries due to class and ethnic supremacists and sectarianism back in the day.

I mean, even Frederick Douglass came over here and spoke at Irish independence and human rights oriented events in the 1840s at the peak of the famine.

So to me it's doubly disgusting for an Irish person to absorb and adopt the racism of the US south and lose all sense of perspective about what our own history is too.

It's a very unpleasant saying and it should be consigned racist history.

Really don't think it has half the connotations you imagine here. It's just an expression that has really lost its meaning and context, with most people not even knowing where it came from just that it uses a particular word. It may also a fossilised expression in the vocabulary of whoever said it, like "seen it" and "done it". A quiet word tends to be the best way to alert people than full-on outrage.

is_that_so

Lackadaisical wrote: »

I'm wondering though where did it come in from? Was some old film reference or something? Doesn't really make any sense in am Irish context. It's an old racist American phrase.

Escaping slaves hiding in woodpiles being transported on rail cars is one suggestion and it's more like the 1840s or 1850s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/****_in_the_woodpile

Boggles

Deleted User wrote: »

Personally, i think the whole 'nigger' thing is generally blown waaay out of proportion. The Fawlty Towers example, where they retrospectively removed entire scenes because a character used the word in a comic sense, is one I have issue with, as it tries to imply that it was wrong to use the term back then, judging 'the olden days' by todays moral compass.

The evolving compass also reinstates scenes or whole films that were cut out back in the day because they were thought to be morally reprehensible or too shocking for general consumption.

Would you have an issue with that, as it's basically the same thing?