N****r in a woodpile

Dante7

I find it interesting that a recent complaint about a politician who used the phrases "n*****r in a dogpile", and also used the phrase "f*ckin bitch" directly targeted at another woman, that it was the N word that got the attention.

The N word in that phrase is an old term with absolutely no derogatory or racist intention. Calling someone a f*ckin bitch is most definitely a derogatory term and targeted abuse. But guess which word they'll get in trouble over!

Atlantic Dawn

Did it actually happen, any record of it?

themandan6611

Dante7 wrote: »

I find it interesting

I find a lot of things interesting too

Shefwedfan

Any other country and for either statements he should be fired on spot or hand in resignation

Not in Ireland and the current FG gangsters

Run right from the top to the lowest level

eviltwin

Who said it?

Rechuchote

Dante7 wrote: »

The N word in that phrase is an old term with absolutely no derogatory or racist intention. Calling someone a f*ckin bitch is most definitely a derogatory term and targeted abuse. But guess which word they'll get in trouble over!

Um, no.

The phrase is a joking reference (haha, not) to runaway slaves desperately hiding among the logs waiting to be chopped, to evade their pursuers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/****_in_the_woodpile

ILoveYourVibes

I do think the N word is different from the word bitch. I don't think you can compare them and I am female.

Rechuchote

Of course it's different. But neither should be used by civilised people.

Ninthlife

Who uses the word dogpile? After using the N word trying to be polite by saying dogpile seems frivilous

Boxing.Fan

Eeny, meeny, miny, moe

Shefwedfan

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I do think the N word is different from the word bitch. I don't think you can compare them and I am female.

I wouldn’t compare the words

What I would say is using either while at work is sackable in every other job so why not for public officials?

Then again to do that Leo the kitten would need to do his job for once

Atlantic Dawn

There should be a €5k fine for using it in this country whether you use it for artistic licence with your tunes or as a racist term.

Roger Hassenforder

Dante7 wrote: »

I find it interesting that a recent complaint about a politician who used the phrases "n*****r in a dogpile", and also used the phrase "f*ckin bitch" directly targeted at another woman, that it was the N word that got the attention.

The N word in that phrase is an old term with absolutely no derogatory or racist intention. Calling someone a f*ckin bitch is most definitely a derogatory term and targeted abuse. But guess which word they'll get in trouble over!

niggardly with the links OP

ILoveYourVibes

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I wouldn’t compare the words

What I would say is using either while at work is sackable in every other job so why not for public officials?

Then again to do that Leo the kitten would need to do his job for once

It was someone in FG? Who?

Shefwedfan

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

It was someone in FG? Who?

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/extra.ie/2019/07/06/news/irish-news/fine-gael-meath-gillian-toole/amp

Atlantic Dawn

Atlantic Dawn wrote:

There should be a €5k fine for using it in this country whether you use it for artistic licence with your tunes or as a racist term.

I hope you are joking. There should be a fine for saying a word?

Haha for **** sake

ILoveYourVibes

Shefwedfan wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/extra.ie/2019/07/06/news/irish-news/fine-gael-meath-gillian-toole/amp

He should be asked to resign.

He obviously has issues.

Odhinn

Dante7 wrote: »

I find it interesting that a recent complaint about a politician who used the phrases "n*****r in a dogpile", and also used the phrase "f*ckin bitch" directly targeted at another woman, that it was the N word that got the attention.

The N word in that phrase is an old term with absolutely no derogatory or racist intention. Calling someone a f*ckin bitch is most definitely a derogatory term and targeted abuse. But guess which word they'll get in trouble over!

....nope.

Dante7

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I do think the N word is different from the word bitch. I don't think you can compare them and I am female.

Do you not think there is a difference between me calling a woman a ****ing bitch and referencing Agatha Christie's Ten little ****?

Squall Leonhart

Old Dr Seuss comic, from 1929:

https://i2.wp.com/www.eurweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/racist-dr-seuss-super-169.jpg

How times have changed!

Dante7

Odhinn wrote: »

....nope.

You're just being offended on other people's behalf. Rural Irish people using the phrase ****** in a dog pile is not racist. There is no racist intent. Mens rea!

Franz Von Peppercorn II

We are not Americans so the use of the word here may not have been racist initially, it may have slipped into the vernacular through American influence. It definitely wasn’t racist in the kids rhyme, at least the children using it weren’t racist.

Probably no excuse for using it now.

Be careful - cotton picker is also racist.

blanch152

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Any other country and for either statements he should be fired on spot or hand in resignation

Not in Ireland and the current FG gangsters

Run right from the top to the lowest level

Any other country? are you sure about that?

Last I checked, there were people like Trump and Johnson runnning around as politicians in other countries. And I haven’t even touched on the European hard right.

Odhinn

Dante7 wrote: »

You're just being offended on other people's behalf. Rural Irish people using the phrase ****** in a dog pile is not racist. There is no racist intent. Mens rea!

It would help if you actually read the complaint



"The county councillor who was called ‘the n***** in the woodpile’"
https://extra.ie/2019/07/06/news/irish-news/fine-gael-meath-gillian-toole

riffmongous

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

We are not Americans so the use of the word here may not have been racist initially, it may have slipped into the vernacular through American influence. It definitely wasn’t racist in the kids rhyme, at least the children using it weren’t racist.

Probably no excuse for using it now.

Be careful - cotton picker is also racist.

I can't say I've ever heard of this particular woodpile phrase ever being used before though, just me?

Dante7

Odhinn wrote: »

It would help if you actually read the complaint



"The county councillor who was called ‘the n***** in the woodpile’"
https://extra.ie/2019/07/06/news/irish-news/fine-gael-meath-gillian-toole

I'm familiar with the complaint. I created the thread. I am also very familiar with your type. You are the Owen Jones of Boards. You are a far left misogynist with no regard for women. You would rather jump on a bandwagon and accuse someone of using the N word, rather than the more substantive issue of the real abuse where a woman was called a ****. You are absolutely useless in this debate.

Odhinn

Dante7 wrote: »

I'm familiar with the complaint. I created the thread.

....and misquoted the actual remark made. Well done.

Dante7 wrote: »

I am also very familiar with your type. You are the Owen Jones of Boards. You are a far left misogynist with no regard for women. You would rather jump on a bandwagon and accuse someone of using the N word, rather than the more substantive issue of the real abuse where a woman was called a ****. You are absolutely useless in this debate.

.....I didn't accuse anyone, yer woman did. And both terms are abusive, and one is racist.

circadian

Dante7 wrote: »

I'm familiar with the complaint. I created the thread. I am also very familiar with your type.You are the Owen Jones of Boards. You are a far left misogynist with no regard for women. You would rather jump on a bandwagon and accuse someone of using the N word, rather than the more substantive issue of the real abuse where a woman was called a ****. You are absolutely useless in this debate.

Most people on here are familiar with your type too. Dickheads that like to try to defend the indefensible and play devils advocate. If you genuinely don't see the issue here then maybe you're part of the problem.

Dante7

Odhinn wrote: »

....and misquoted the actual remark made. Well done.






.....I didn't accuse anyone, yer woman did. And both terms are abusive, and one is racist.

Ok. Let's go. Why is "****** in the woodpile" an intentionally racist comment?

It's a phrase that went out with the advent of electricity. To claim victimhood is pathetic.

ILoveYourVibes

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a phrase that went out with the advent of electricity. To claim victimhood is pathetic.

I had never even heard it. I had to look it up to find out what it meant.

Even now i am still not sure.

Dante7

circadian wrote: »

Most people on here are familiar with your type too. Dickheads that like to try to defend the indefensible and play devils advocate. If you genuinely don't see the issue here then maybe you're part of the problem.

I am sure most people are familiar with my type. A normal person who calls bull**** on this and who has a problem with an historical phrase with absolutely no racist connotation being deemed as more offensive than actually calling someone a ****ing bitch.

Btw, you calling me a dickhead was more offensive than someone else using an historical phrase that wasn't targeted or meant to insult anyone. But you'll never understand that.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I had never even heard it. I had to look it up to find out what it meant.

Even now i am still not sure.

Wiki sez.

A ****** in the woodpile or a ****** in the fence is a figure of speech originating in the United States meaning "some fact of considerable importance that is not disclosed—something suspicious or wrong".[1]

Not sure how it applies here.

circadian

Dante7 wrote: »

I am sure most people are familiar with my type. A normal person who calls bull**** on this and who has a problem with an historical phrase with absolutely no racist connotation being deemed as more offensive than actually calling someone a ****ing bitch.

Btw, you calling me a dickhead was more offensive than someone else using an historical phrase that wasn't targeted or meant to insult anyone. But you'll never understand that.

I understand that at a personal level it's more insulting but on a generally speaking level it's nowhere near as offensive.

But, aye, you just keep going on as if you're the big man that tells it like it is and that's ****ing great, when in reality your "telling it like it is" is just you being completely out of touch with the majority of the population.

Dante7

Dante7 wrote:

I am sure most people are familiar with my type. A normal person who calls bull**** on this and who has a problem with an historical phrase with absolutely no racist connotation being deemed as more offensive than actually calling someone a ****ing bitch.

I dunno Dante. I normally don't find myself agreeing with odhinn but the word n1gger is undoubtedly an offensive word to use in this day and age.

I disagree that it should be a forbidden word, but I think that you should be aware of what will happen when you say it and it probably should not be used when describing a work colleague.

Calling someone a fuucking bitch is tame in comparison and is not only offensive because of its historical context, but offensive because he is seemingly unaware that it isn't ok to say without expecting backlash.

It was stupid. Not a sacking offense in my opinion but I wouldn't defend his use of it.

Tokyo

Mod: Next personal attack gets carded.

Dante7

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I dunno Dante. I normally don't find myself agreeing with odhinn but the word n1gger is undoubtedly an offensive word to use in this day and age.

I disagree that it should be a forbidden word, but I think that you should be aware of what will happen when you say it and it probably should not be used when describing a work colleague.

Calling someone a fuucking bitch is tame in comparison and is not only offensive because of its historical context, but offensive because he is seemingly unaware that it isn't ok to say without expecting backlash.

It was stupid. Not a sacking offense in my opinion but I wouldn't defend his use of it.

I think you are missing the point I originally tried to make. I didn't try try to defend the woodpile comment - never would. My point in my OP was that it was interesting how that comment was deemed more offensive than calling someone a ****ing bitch. A directed, offensive comment calling a woman a ****ing bitch is somehow less of a slur than using an age old phrase with absolutely no racist or insulting intent. That was my point, and that is where we are.

Btw, I didn't report anyone for comments. Not my style.

ILoveYourVibes

Dante7 wrote: »

You're just being offended on other people's behalf. Rural Irish people using the phrase ****** in a dog pile is not racist. There is no racist intent. Mens rea!

You are saying rural people are provincial simpletons. Which is an insult to rural people.

It's like saying they are so ignorant of the wider world they could not be aware enough of the wider racial implications of the phrase and so could not intend to be racist.

Its patronizing. Maybe you don't MEAN it to. But it makes a lot of presumptions about rural people most of which are not complimentary.

Dante7

Dante7 wrote:

Btw, I didn't report anyone for comments. Not my style.

Never thought you would.

Dante7 wrote:

I think you are missing the point I originally tried to make. I didn't try try to defend the woodpile comment - never would. My point in my OP was that it was interesting how that comment was deemed more offensive than calling someone a ****ing bitch. A directed, offensive comment calling a woman a ****ing bitch is somehow less of a slur than using an age old phrase with absolutely no racist or insulting intent. That was my point, and that is where we are.

Nah man. Perhaps I'm out of the loop but calling a woman a ****ing bitch is very low in the scale of insults.

I suppose it's all about percieved intent. For example, calling a black person a black bastar£ is insulting but the insult is technically the second word not the first. But the perception is that you are calling him the second word because of the first.

Anyway. ****ing bitch is not a comment I would get concerned about a politician using. ****** is.

Personally, i think the whole 'nigger' thing is generally blown waaay out of proportion. The Fawlty Towers example, where they retrospectively removed entire scenes because a character used the word in a comic sense, is one I have issue with, as it tries to imply that it was wrong to use the term back then, judging 'the olden days' by todays moral compass.


I have heard the word said a few times in my life, usually muttered by older people who don't mean any malice by it, but who just have it as part of their vocabulary as there was no issue with it in the past. I also played eeny-meeny and we had a nigger in there, and neither me, nor any of my friends, have turned out to be mad racists.


However, I do think this was a deliberately insulting (albeit not racist) remark, as it was specifically said about a black person. If he'd said it about anyone else, or if it was a comment or phrase he was known to say an awful lot, then I reckon he'd be excused. But he deliberately aimed the comment at a black person, which is why people are annoyed, and it's clear it was meant, perhaps not specifically as a racial slur (in that he doesn't like black people) but as a personal insult, nonetheless.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote:

Personally, i think the whole '******' thing is generally blown waaay out of proportion. The Fawlty Towers example, where they retrospectively removed entire scenes because a character used the word in a comic sense, is one I have issue with, as it tries to imply that it was wrong to use the term back then, judging 'the olden days' by todays moral compass.

I recently watched Mrs Doubtfire with my daughter. That film would be shredded to pieces by censors these days because of transphobic comments and subject matter.

I wonder are we actually more progressive or regressive these days.

Lackadaisical

I'd be extremely unimpressed with both the langauge and what sounds like a bullying context. Doesn't sound great for FG and would certainly have me questioning voting for a party that was tolerant of that kind of stuff. It's just not very civilised.

I mean seriously, who uses language like that to colleagues anywhere? You'd want to be pretty lacking in cop on to think that was acceptable and name-calling a colleague in any context is pretty nasty.

ILoveYourVibes

Deleted User wrote: »

I wonder are we actually more progressive or regressive these days.

I think the issue is people are mistaking reactionary for being progressive.

Exploding over something that is wrong isn't progressive. Living to make it gradually better is progressive.

Lackadaisical

Lackadaisical wrote:

I'd be extremely unimpressed with both the langauge and what sounds like a bullying context. Doesn't sound great for FG and would certainly have me questioning voting for a party that was tolerant of that kind of stuff. It's just not very civilised.

I kind of agree but in fairness, if one member making a bit of a ****ty comment makes you question voting for any party, you should question your voting criterion.

Dante7

[Deleted User] wrote: »

However, I do think this was a deliberately insulting (albeit not racist) remark, as it was specifically said about a black person. If he'd said it about anyone else, or if it was a comment or phrase he was known to say an awful lot, then I reckon he'd be excused. But he deliberately aimed the comment at a black person, which is why people are annoyed, and it's clear it was meant, perhaps not specifically as a racial slur (in that he doesn't like black people) but as a personal insult, nonetheless.

No, you are so wrong. And here is the crux of the matter. The comment was absolutely not made about a black person. It was made about a white woman. But somehow, using the N word in a collequail phrase, with absolutely no racist intention, trumps calling a woman a ****ing bitch. I just don't get it. Hence, the purpose of the thread.

Lackadaisical

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I kind of agree but in fairness, if one member making a bit of a ****ty comment makes you question voting for any party, you should question your voting criterion.

It would if they don't deal with it. I'd have a big issue with a party that tolerated that kind of thing. The bullying aspect is pretty bad too, not just the langauge.

pinkyeye

I think both comments are sackable offences tbf.

Anyone else who said these things in the work place would be sacked straight away without any process and rightly so.

Get a grip lads.

I get OP's point that the n word is getting more traction than the bitch comment but apparently he has denied saying the bitch word but not denied saying the N word so there's that.

To summarise, he deserves to be sacked either way.

pinkyeye

pinkyeye wrote:

To summarise, he deserves to be sacked either way.

I dunno. Sacking a politician for using unsavoury language while keeping politicians who break promises and abuse expenses is showing a strange priority.

StupidLikeAFox

Dante7 wrote: »

No, you are so wrong. And here is the crux of the matter. The comment was absolutely not made about a black person. It was made about a white woman. But somehow, using the N word in a collequail phrase, with absolutely no racist intention, trumps calling a woman a ****ing bitch. I just don't get it. Hence, the purpose of the thread.

First of all, you are the only one saying that "****** in a woodpile" is being treated as a greater offence than calling someone a "****ing bitch". You introduced that in the opening post and have been the only one pushing that line.

Secondly, that phrase is unnacceptable and racist. It reduces black people to a stereotype of being a slave regardless of the context it is used. I don't know how you can't see the nuance in that.

For example, if you heard someone say "as dumb as a paddy in a pub" once it might not bother you. However if suddenly this phrase creeped into the vernacular, if suddenly you were being reduced to a stereotype and equated to an idiot and/or an alcoholic by virtue of the fact you were born in Ireland, then you would rightly start getting pissed off. Then, if some English politician said "my opponent is as dumb as a paddy in a pub" how would that go down do you think? Do you think it would be fair that suddenly Irish people are being used as an analogy for being stupid?

The same goes for the word ******. Regardless of the context it is used in, it's a term that equates black people to slaves, property, less than human. There are black people in Ireland today who might face this kind of language and attitude on a regular basis. I don't think it's acceptable for elected officials (or anybody) to use this kind of language in any capacity. It was particularly unnecessary in the context it was used here and the defence of "sure it's only a phrase" doesn't really cut it

Shefwedfan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I kind of agree but in fairness, if one member making a bit of a ****ty comment makes you question voting for any party, you should question your voting criterion.

The main man has been caught a few times now with comments in the dail

When the clown at the top thinks it’s ok then the rest of the clowns follow

padd b1975

Rechuchote wrote: »

Um, no.

The phrase is a joking reference (haha, not) to runaway slaves desperately hiding among the logs waiting to be chopped, to evade their pursuers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/****_in_the_woodpile

*Ebony logs.