Can you turn right on red arrow?

BilboBagOfCans

Coming from ashtown today on Dublin bus and we came to a small junction with an arrow for going straight and an arrow for turning right. When the arrow went free for going straight, the arrow for turning right was still red, however the driver made the turn.
I thought if you wanted to turn right you could do so if it was just a green light (not an arrow) and if there was a red arrow for going right you couldn't?
Thanks

XsApollo

If it’s red you can’t.
If it was a flashing arrow you can go but you are yielding to oncoming traffic.

Dial Hard

Nope, and you can't even enter the junction. Red right arrow means stay behind the line til it goes green.

Boxcar_Willie

They have a "free left turn on red " in the US .

There's no equivalent here .

Holy Duck

Dial Hard wrote:

Nope, and you can't even enter the junction. Red right arrow means stay behind the line til it goes green.

So its the same as a red light, what's the point of the arrow?

fullstop

Holy Duck wrote: »

So its the same as a red light, what's the point of the arrow?

Really?!! You realise on a lot of junctions you’ll have a green arrow and red for straight on, hence the reason for the arrow.

cython

Boxcar_Willie wrote: »

They have a "free right turn on red " in the US .

There's no equivalent here .

FYP. Left on red would be our equivalent that doesn't exist, after all.

Holy Duck

Holy Duck wrote: »

So its the same as a red light, what's the point of the arrow?

More often than not (in fact, the only time I think I ever see this?) is when there's a pedestrian crossing that has it's own lights, to the right of the junction.


So the traffic can go left and striaght, but traffic can't turn right as the pedestrians on that side would have a green light and you'd run them over.

Charles Babbage

Why on earth would they go to the trouble of having a red arrow just so people could ignore it?
They need traffic light cameras here.

Holy Duck

fullstop wrote:

Really?!! You realise on a lot of junctions you’ll have a green arrow and red for straight on, hence the reason for the arrow.

Yes, but why a red arrow, red means stop, arrow or not

Guy:Incognito

Holy Duck wrote: »

Yes, but why a red arrow, red means stop, arrow or not

Because the right turn can be green while the straight ahead can be red.

It should idiot proof the signals but clearly not as people still dont understand and drive through them.

Lackadaisical

No you can't and they are often red because there's a green pedestrian crossing associated with them.

There's no turn on red here.

The red arrows are generally more abundantly clear about what not to do than a full red and green arrows and they allow more flexible junction setup.

Inexcusable for a bus driver to break a red light. Public service vehicle with passengers and a large vehicle that can't stop very suddenly. That kind of driving could kill a pedestrian crossing on a green signal.

Holy Duck

So red means stop, red arrow means definitely stop, don't get it, anyway I'm going straight..... to bed

Riva10

BilboBagOfCans wrote: »

Coming from ashtown today on Dublin bus and we came to a small junction with an arrow for going straight and an arrow for turning right. When the arrow went free for going straight, the arrow for turning right was still red, however the driver made the turn.
I thought if you wanted to turn right you could do so if it was just a green light (not an arrow) and if there was a red arrow for going right you couldn't?
Thanks

If you drive for Dublin Bus you can ignore all red lights. I thought everyone knew that.

grogi

Holy Duck wrote: »

So its the same as a red light, what's the point of the arrow?

Directional light overrides nondirectional one:

* Red arrow forbids turning in that direction, even if there is a generic green.
* Green arrow allows turning when generic red is on.

J_R

Hi

Red filter light ? sounds very idiotic. A full red and full green together with appropriate green filter lights should be sufficient to control any junction.

When erecting this red filter I wonder if any provision was made for colour-blind drivers.

Del2005

J_R wrote: »

Hi

Red filter light ? sounds very idiotic. A full red and full green together with appropriate green filter lights should be sufficient to control any junction.

When erecting this red filter I wonder if any provision was made for colour-blind drivers.

If they are colour blind then they won't see the big red circle traffic light, so not seeing the filter arrow will be the same issue which they managed to overcome.

J_R

Del2005 wrote: »

If they are colour blind then they won't see the big red circle traffic light, so not seeing the filter arrow will be the same issue which they managed to overcome.

Hi,

do you mean that there is a red circular light AND the red filter light lit at same time. ?

(Colour-blind people can see lights OK, they can distinguish whither they are lit or not, its just that they sometimes do not know what colour. They know by the position of the lights on the pole what colour)

would the OP please post the Google maps co-ordinates

DiamondC

https://www.theaa.ie/blog/a-minority-of-motorist-need-more-discipline-when-it-comes-to-traffic-lights-says-aa/

"5. If turning right at traffic lights where there is a right facing arrow, you can drive into the junction when the traffic lights turn green, making sure not to obstruct the flow of oncoming traffic. When it is safe to do so, complete your right hand turn. You are not obliged to wait for the green filter arrow to appear provided you get a safe opportunity to turn right before it appears."

CelticRambler

Deleted User wrote: »

More often than not (in fact, the only time I think I ever see this?) is when there's a pedestrian crossing that has it's own lights, to the right of the junction.


So the traffic can go left and striaght, but traffic can't turn right as the pedestrians on that side would have a green light and you'd run them over.

Point of interest for continental (esp French) driving: the default setting is that the pedestrian lights to the left/right are green when you also have green; but you don't have the right to run them over!

punisher5112

Fairview junction onto malahide road has one now coming from howth direction...

They use to be allowed to enter the junction as it was a green circular light plus an arrow to allow onto malahide road.

garv123

DiamondC wrote: »

https://www.theaa.ie/blog/a-minority-of-motorist-need-more-discipline-when-it-comes-to-traffic-lights-says-aa/

"5. If turning right at traffic lights where there is a right facing arrow, you can drive into the junction when the traffic lights turn green, making sure not to obstruct the flow of oncoming traffic. When it is safe to do so, complete your right hand turn. You are not obliged to wait for the green filter arrow to appear provided you get a safe opportunity to turn right before it appears."

But if there is a red filter arrow, you stop. a lot of junctions just have a green filter arrow with no red arrow.

DiamondC

Yes, you stop on the red arrow. But... "You are not obliged to wait for the green filter arrow to appear provided you get a safe opportunity to turn right before it appears"
Don't think it matters if there's only a green arrow.

The J Stands for Jay

Riva10 wrote: »

If you drive for Dublin Bus you can ignore all red lights. I thought everyone knew that.

Just like taxi drivers, but they can also park anywhere as long as they put on their hazard lights.

hi5

An explanation from a NZ site...(I know, not Ireland)

Extra precautionary seems to be the reason.

Intersections which are busy, have fast-moving traffic, have two or more lanes in either direction or have restricted visibility are more likely to have a red turning arrow to prevent drivers from making ill-judged decisions. It also allows for right-turning traffic to definitely turn and, with the use of sensors in the road (a magnetic induction loop), means that the turn signal only needs to be activated when there are vehicles waiting if there is a dedicated right-turn lane or bay.

https://www.drivingtests.co.nz/roadcode-questions/car/core/you-are-turning-right-at-traffic-signals/

Isambard

DiamondC wrote: »

Yes, you stop on the red arrow. But... "You are not obliged to wait for the green filter arrow to appear provided you get a safe opportunity to turn right before it appears"
Don't think it matters if there's only a green arrow.

yes but it was the AA said that, they are an Insurance Company basically.

If there's a green general light and a red right arrow you have to stop.There generally isn't a co-responding green arrow , so you may proceed when the red arrow goes off if the main light is green.

Personally I think these red arrows just add confusion to a system that worked well for years. One example there would be , if the red arrow failed, the general green light would make you think you can proceed when you don't have priority. It isn't fail-safe in other words.

DiamondC

The AA are quoting from the RSA Rules of the Road..
See the Rules of the Road here: http://www.rotr.ie/Rules_of_the_road.pdf
Page 104:
"A green arrow (also known as a filter light) means that you may move on in the
direction of the arrow, assuming it is safe and the way is clear, even if a red
light is also showing.
If you wish to turn right at a set of traffic lights that has an arrow to the right
(or white rectangular box with white arrow), drive into the junction when you
see a green light. Take care not to block any oncoming traffic. Then, when it is
safe, finish your turn. You should only wait for the filter arrow for turning right
when you are in the junction and if it would be dangerous to finish your turn
before the filter light appears."

grogi

Isambard wrote: »

Personally I think these red arrows just add confusion

Agreed.

What we should have is either only a green filter light or a completely separate set of lights for given direction - with arrows on red, amber and green - without any non-directional lights.

I personally hate when the red light is without any arrows, but the green is directional. Happens a lot that I am staring at the wrong red.

Exp. https://goo.gl/maps/ZD5tEy3p7UYB8agS8

dulpit

There's a junction in Cork that has this. Red/Green straight ahead arrow and a second green for turning right. The lights for straight on are green much longer than those for turning right, I have more than once had somebody sit on their horn behind me because I was at top of the queue turning right and the lights are green for straight ahead but red for turning right. The setup makes sense to me though:

https://www.google.ie/maps/@51.9010461,-8.4791579,3a,75y,253.21h,97.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1huRfYXdhD8qFva0o5UVYg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

grogi

dulpit wrote: »

There's a junction in Cork that has this. Red/Green straight ahead arrow and a second green for turning right. The lights for straight on are green much longer than those for turning right, I have more than once had somebody sit on their horn behind me because I was at top of the queue turning right and the lights are green for straight ahead but red for turning right. The setup makes sense to me though

Yep - it is a filter arrow - this time for going straight.
If the green arrow brakes down, nothing dangerous happens really.

Tazzimus

Two pages on if you can break a red light? We're not in America.

dulpit

dulpit wrote: »

There's a junction in Cork that has this. Red/Green straight ahead arrow and a second green for turning right. The lights for straight on are green much longer than those for turning right, I have more than once had somebody sit on their horn behind me because I was at top of the queue turning right and the lights are green for straight ahead but red for turning right. The setup makes sense to me though:

https://www.google.ie/maps/@51.9010461,-8.4791579,3a,75y,253.21h,97.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1huRfYXdhD8qFva0o5UVYg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Same at a junction in Tallagh village.
If you do break the red light (which people do) you cross a pedestrian crossing that has a green man,so very dangerous.

Isambard

DiamondC wrote: »

The AA are quoting from the RSA Rules of the Road..
See the Rules of the Road here: http://www.rotr.ie/Rules_of_the_road.pdf
Page 104:
"A green arrow (also known as a filter light) means that you may move on in the
direction of the arrow, assuming it is safe and the way is clear, even if a red
light is also showing.
If you wish to turn right at a set of traffic lights that has an arrow to the right
(or white rectangular box with white arrow), drive into the junction when you
see a green light. Take care not to block any oncoming traffic. Then, when it is
safe, finish your turn. You should only wait for the filter arrow for turning right
when you are in the junction and if it would be dangerous to finish your turn
before the filter light appears."

well the ROTR are only guidance anyway. Thing is you're answering the wrong question.He isn't asking about a green filter arrow, he's asking about a red one.

GreeBo

DiamondC wrote: »

The AA are quoting from the RSA Rules of the Road..
See the Rules of the Road here: http://www.rotr.ie/Rules_of_the_road.pdf
Page 104:
"A green arrow (also known as a filter light) means that you may move on in the
direction of the arrow, assuming it is safe and the way is clear, even if a red
light is also showing.
If you wish to turn right at a set of traffic lights that has an arrow to the right
(or white rectangular box with white arrow), drive into the junction when you
see a green light. Take care not to block any oncoming traffic. Then, when it is
safe, finish your turn. You should only wait for the filter arrow for turning right
when you are in the junction and if it would be dangerous to finish your turn
before the filter light appears."

A red light is different than a red arrow.

If you have a red arrow, irrespective of anything else, you stay behind the line.
If you have a green light you move forward.
If you have a green arrow and a red light you move forward.
If you have a green arrow you move forward.

Lackadaisical

Cork City Council uses a lot of red arrows these days and I think they've actually improved things. People don't tend treat a full red and green straight ahead arrow as an indication that they shouldn't turn. You'll always get the moron standing on the horn behind someone who's observing the red correctly.

With the red arrows it's a lot more clear that you shouldn't turn.

We should use more amber flashing arrows too though. There are several of them around Cork City centre and they work very well in my opinion, particular where you've good vision and relatively balanced traffic flows.

I'm not a fan of the french turn-on-red as it's very often the case that drivers turn without paying much attention to the pedestrian crossing. I've been nearly mowed down plenty of times in Paris and other french cities and I just don't take the green man to mean very much in a lot of cases.

DiamondC

I don't think the colour of the filter arrow matters:
"You should only wait for the filter arrow for turning right
when you are in the junction and if it would be dangerous to finish your turn
before the filter light appears."

I believe it means if it is safe to turn right, do so. Otherwise wait for the arrow.

odyssey06

DiamondC wrote: »

I don't think the colour of the filter arrow matters:
"You should only wait for the filter arrow for turning right
when you are in the junction and if it would be dangerous to finish your turn
before the filter light appears."
I believe it means if it is safe to turn right, do so. Otherwise wait for the arrow.

And if you did that, you would knock down the pedestrian crossing at the junction, whose green man has appeared to coincide with the red light that makes it illegal for you to take the turn.

DiamondC

Isambard wrote: »

well the ROTR are only guidance anyway. Thing is you're answering the wrong question.He isn't asking about a green filter arrow, he's asking about a red one.

"The current Rules of the Road comply with and reflect the road traffic law as at 6 April 2018"

Are they really only a guidance? genuine question..

DiamondC

odyssey06 wrote: »

And if you did that, you would knock down the pedestrian crossing at the junction, whose green man has appeared to coincide with the red light that makes it illegal for you to take the turn.

As stated, if it is safe to turn right, do so. Otherwise wait for the arrow.

Isambard

red means stop, it's an absolute...being an arrow means it applies in this direction, you may not turn on red.

Flashing orange is a good idea as it is the equivalent of the US turn on red, but made clearer.

Guy:Incognito

DiamondC wrote: »

I don't think the colour of the filter arrow matters:
"You should only wait for the filter arrow for turning right
when you are in the junction and if it would be dangerous to finish your turn
before the filter light appears."

I believe it means if it is safe to turn right, do so. Otherwise wait for the arrow.

That means if you've pulled in to the middle of the junction to wait for the filter, clear the ****ing junction as soon as possible and dont sit there in the middle of it waiting for a filter.

RustyNut

DiamondC wrote: »

"The current Rules of the Road comply with and reflect the road traffic law as at 6 April 2018"

Are they really only a guidance? genuine question..

Yes its the law that counts. The ROTR are a good guide to the law as actually reading or even finding the relevant si's is a task harder than anything to do with driving.

Have a read through this, it's what really counts, along with more legalese gobbledygook that keeps lawyers in maseratis.

Tazzimus

DiamondC wrote: »

As stated, if it is safe to turn right, do so. Otherwise wait for the arrow.

No it is not. That's breaking a red light

Marcusm

RustyNut wrote: »

Yes its the law that counts. The ROTR are a good guide to the law as actually reading or even finding the relevant si's is a task harder than anything to do with driving.

Have a read through this, it's what really counts, along with more legalese gobbledygook that keeps lawyers in maseratis.

Following the Rules of the Road would be a strong defence to an accusation of breaking the law. While they do not have the force of law they will be regarded as a persuasive interpretation of the law especially as they are expressly prepared by a government agency for that purpose.

Isambard

Marcusm wrote: »

Following the Rules of the Road would be a strong defence to an accusation of breaking the law. While they do not have the force of law they will be regarded as a persuasive interpretation of the law especially as they are expressly prepared by a government agency for that purpose.

yes but not if the interpreter is reading a passage clearly intended for green arrows and claiming the same applies to red ones.

DiamondC

I stand corrected.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1964/si/294/made/en/print

13 Traffic lights
13.—(1) Subject to paragraph (4) of this bye-law, a driver facing a traffic light lamp which shows a red light shall not proceed beyond the stop line at that light or, if there is no such stop line, beyond that light.

(2) A driver facing a traffic light lamp which shows an amber light while no other traffic light lamp (immediately above or below) shows any light, shall not proceed beyond the stop line at that light (or, if there is no such stop line, beyond the light) save when the vehicle is so close to the stop line when the amber light shows that the vehicle cannot safely be halted before crossing the stop line.

(3) A driver facing a traffic light lamp which shows a green light (other than a green arrow) may, in accordance with these bye-laws, proceed past that light.

(4) A driver facing a traffic light lamp which shows a lighted green arrow may, in accordance with these bye-laws, proceed in the direction indicated by the arrow, notwithstanding that another traffic light lamp facing the driver shows a red light.

Although certain Maserati drivers may interpret this differently...

jaxxx

This is why everyone should be re-tested at least for the basics every few years (5-10 maybe), instead of just once and you're set for life...

dulpit

DiamondC wrote: »

I don't think the colour of the filter arrow matters:
"You should only wait for the filter arrow for turning right
when you are in the junction and if it would be dangerous to finish your turn
before the filter light appears."

I believe it means if it is safe to turn right, do so. Otherwise wait for the arrow.

Hang on, so if there is a set of lights with a red, amber, green straight ahead arrow and green arrow right, and you drive up and have it red with green striahgt arrow (indicating you can go straight ahead but not right), you think you can turn right if it's safe to do so?

DiamondC

What I think seems to be irrelevant .. as others have stated, and as the law states, you cannot proceed through a red.

jaxxx

DiamondC wrote: »

What I think seems to be irrelevant .. as others have stated, and as the law states, you cannot proceed through a red.

Mind = Blown


If it isn't an amber arrow, it isn't a filter. QED

DiamondC

Yeah - it's mad alright...