Random EV thoughts.....

funnyname

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122403457#Comment_122403457

change of plans as we have an additional passenger who isn't a great traveller so gonna go with a stop at the Circle K stop on the M6 just after Athlone. I see they have plenty of ESB and Ionity chargers, we hope to hot there for 10ish so hopefully there will be plenty free. I've registered with both and add my CC card details and also for Tesla as well so I think I'm well covered. We won't spare it on the road tomorrow so will be interesting to see if we need one or two charges.

Mach Two

When you say the car cools down do you mean the cabin of the car or drive mechanism i.e. "the engine".

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122406550#Comment_122406550

Dunno what comment your referring to?

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122406550#Comment_122406550

If you drive lots of short trips in an EV then the energy used per trip will be somewhat high. The car will try heat cabin quickly, each time and the estimated range shown on the car will be lower as it will assume all trips will be like that. If you charge your EV battery once a week you will be fine, the actual cost to fill the EV will be much cheaper than petrol or diesel but with lots of short trips the fuel cost savings may only be hundreds of euro per year compared to thousands of euro for those with a long daily commute. Short trips don't do any harm to the car nor battery.

Flinty997

Personally especially in winter with a lot of short trips in the EV preheating the cabin and heated windscreen is a game changer for getting out quickly. Takes about 10+ mins in the our ICE. Then I can recharge it at home. I'd happily pay more for that convenience alone.

I know some ICE cars can do that but very few and it's entirely different running an engine on your driveway with all the fumes.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122406817#Comment_122406817

And if the key is in the car in that ICE car, and it is then stolen, you are not covered by insurance. Also very bad idea to let an ICE car engine heat up by idling. Causes massive wear on the engine.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122406839#Comment_122406839

I dunno if any wear is that significant. But it's a complete faff in urban environment. Such a waste of time.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122406550#Comment_122406550

The cabin and the battery

The cabin is fairly obvious, it gets cold and the car consumes energy to warm it up

The battery is a bit more complicated. Basically a cold battery won't deliver as much power and charges slower

Different manufacturers have different approaches, some will limit the amount of power available until the battery warms up from driving, others use a heater to warm up the battery

VW cars for example would heat up the battery every time the car started in temperatures below 8C which caused a range hit. They've since changed it so that it'll only heat up slowly for shorter journeys

There's no danger to the car from driving on a cold battery, it'll take steps to protect itself using the power limits I mentioned earlier

The main effect is that it increases consumption for short drives. In the depths of winter for example I'll typically see around 21kWh/100km on a long drive, but this can go up to 25kWh/100km when I do a bunch of short hops

The big question is, does it matter? Not really IMO, worst case it'll make your range look pessimistic and makes your electricity bill very slightly higher

Best way to avoid it is to preheat the car when it's plugged in. Then it'll use power from the charger to preheat and not from the battery

Btw, diesel cars do the same crap in winter, all the fuel efficiency and emissions control systems are bypassed until the engine heats up

Flinty997

That explains why they have so much fumes when heating up and clearing the windows.

Mach Two

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122407022#Comment_122407022

So an increase of approximately 20% in electricity consumption for short journeys. Still not bad though. Surely petrol or diesel would be the same.

Out of curiosity how do you preheat the cabin in an EV. Is it a press of a button on a key fob?

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122409815#Comment_122409815

Maybe not 20% but similar principle applies as ICE.

Cabin pre heat, window defrost, battery preconditioning can all be done from your phone while lying in bed 😀

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122409815#Comment_122409815

Depends on the car, but most of them have an app that lets you start the heating and also see the charge level

Most cars also let you set a preheating timer, so if you're leaving at 8am every day you can set the car to be nice and warm at that time. It usually defrosts the windows as well if they're icy, so no more scraping the ice off

A lot of EVs are starting to come with seat heating as standard. It's a lot more efficient for heating the passengers than warm air so better to use them if available

I also tend to preheat to around 23C on very cold days. The idea is that you'll want to warm up all the stuff in the cabin like the seats before leaving, otherwise they'll absorb heat while driving and increase consumption

Never actually tested to see if it's more efficient, but getting into a warm car certainly is nice

Mach Two

Anyone know which cars are more reliable. A battery powered EV with very few moving parts. Or a car with an ICE with lots of moving parts.

Is there a cooling system in an EV like an ICE. Radiator with coolant moving around the engine.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122411172#Comment_122411172

No engine, no radiator.

Some EVs have heat pump, and some have liquid cooling for battery and some electrics.

In general an EV should be more reliable. But it's new tech and generally new models so you'll have software bugs and teething trouble with new designs. New design of a door handle Vs one that's been in production for years. New model ICE would have the same.

Mach Two

Pros and cons of buying new versus second hand EV? I presume it would be the same as an ICE vehicle bar the battery. What issues would there be?

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412105#Comment_122412105

Same but different. Same in that age and mileage still matter, different in that there are far fewer things to go wrong. The newer battery chemistries are too early in their lifespans to really know for sure what their levels of degradation might be, but signs are that they are much better than the early EVs, especially the Nissan Leaf.

Mach Two

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412187#Comment_122412187

Can battery degradation be accurately measured?

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412105#Comment_122412105

Servicing an EV is effectively just an inspection, no oil changes, DPF filters, etc needed

So it should be enough to check the service history to ensure it's just been regularly serviced

Tyres, wiper blades and screen wash are the only real consumables

Battery warranty is obviously a selling point, most cars have a warranty that is limited by time and mileage, whichever hits first. The more warranty is left then theoretically the car is more valuable

The warranty varies by manufacturer, VW cars for example have a warranty of 8 years or 160,000km. There are some exclusions, for example some manufacturers won't cover taxis under warranty

However if you're doing 10,000km per year you could in theory but a cheaper 2 year old EV with 100,000km on the clock and keep it for 6 years before the warranty is up

I'd recommend getting a battery health check before buying. Most manufacturers have a way to read the battery health with an OBD11 dongle and if you're buying from a garage then they should provide this

You can also buy your own OBD dongle to check it yourself, there's plenty of smartphone apps now that can read various EVs health status. There's also 3rd party checkers like Aviloo which will give you an estimated battery health based on data they've collected from similar vehicles

AndyBoBandy

just on pre-conditioning a battery. One very cool feature of a Tesla in cold weather is if it needs to get heat into the battery quickly to warm it up (for fast charging), it can actually run the traction motors, even if the car is stationary, but put a load through them to generate resistance, thus generating heat, and then scavenge that heat via liquid cooling transfer manifolds, and transfer that heat into the battery cooling/heating fluid system, to warm the battery quicker…

They've been doing this for years…. a Tesla isn't just an acceleration beast, they are engineering marvels…

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412306#Comment_122412306

It can even be inaccurately measured 😁

Range is the indicator. You should know the real world range (not WLTP) of the vehicle. The EV database is a good source for these, but also in here on the various vehicle threads.

You can also use an OBD scanner to check the battery's state of health.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412306#Comment_122412306

Yes you measure how much charge can go into the battery and how much it discharged. Then you know the difference between that and when new. You can also use the obd as was said earlier.

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412409#Comment_122412409

This was done as a cost savings exercise to save on a battery heater. Lots of EVs have battery heaters. Tesla used resistive heaters for cabin heating long after many manufacturers went to heat pumps. I believe their resistive heaters for all models were made in Ireland then installed in USA cars in the past.

joe1303l

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122411490#Comment_122411490

Lots of EV’s have radiators as part of the battery cooling system.

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412105#Comment_122412105

I bought a new EV and a barely used EV from a family member. No issues with either. Both been perfect, both VAG cars. Audi and Cupra.

No problems with any of the cars in work either, also mainly VAG cars, ID4s, ID5s, Enyaq and a Tesla.

From now on, I will be buying used EVs. I don't like the depreciation from new.

smurfjed

Fisker in the USA have received bankruptcy court approval to sell their stock of cars for $46m, which appears to work out at about US$15,000 per car. Good deal for New York City taxi owners.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122414696#Comment_122414696

True but what happens when they break down, and given some of the reports of the current state of the software I imagine that'll be frequent

wassie

Would you buy or lease an EV that you cant get spare parts for and has buggy software that is not being updated (despite assurances from a company in the middle of bankruptcy proceedings). Every single Ocean sold in the US is also currently subject to at least one recall, some several.

AmericanLease are looking to purchase the cars for their fleet to lease out to rideshare drivers (Uber/Lyft etc), so they potentially have the capital to manage these issues. They posted this on Reddit:

"It is our intention to collaborate with the Fisker Owners Association to create a universally beneficial pipeline of parts as well as technical and mechanical support."

Wouldn't fill me with confidence if I was an Ocean owner, but it does give them some sort of hope.

Mind you, what would a near new 113kWh NMC battery be worth?

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122417276#Comment_122417276

I wouldn’t buy or lease any car (ICE or EV) that there was no spare parts for tbh.

wassie

As you well know, its a much lower bar to become a rideshare driver than a proper taxi driver in the US, which is why I suspect AL targets them.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122417621#Comment_122417621

Buy two, then you've a donor car if one breaks 😉