Random EV thoughts.....

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967693#Comment_119967693

And I hope we all remember that the next time a politician comes knocking and we ask them why a plane to Kerry is worth subsidising but a high speed rail line to Cork and Kerry isn't 😁

unkel

Intercity (non-cummuting) trains are not worth subsidising either. Far too little demand for it. Last time I was in a train from Dublin to Cork, I reckon I was the only passenger paying full fare. Full of OAP and students who travel for free or for half nothing, courtesy of the tax payer.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967939#Comment_119967939

Agree, that whole travel pass thing needs reform/overhaul/canning

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967939#Comment_119967939

I'd argue that if the service is crap it'll never get used to the point where it's profitable, whereas if you put in a decent high speed service then people will use it because it presents a viable alternative to car travel

Think about it like this, you've someone employed in Dublin who wants to buy a house. Closest place with anywhere near achievable house prices these days is probably around Carlow

So now our poor worker has to suffer the constant traffic jam that is the M7. But a high speed train would probably get him to Heuston in about 45 mins

As long as it's cheaper than petrol and our worker has a decent chance at a seat then he'll probably take the train

To put it another way, you'd effectively extend the commuter belt deep into rural areas by introducing a decent high speed rail service

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968259#Comment_119968259

The subsidisation of EVs together with access to low cost charging in their own driveway new houses will not encourage many commuters to swap their shiny new preheated EVs for such services.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968336#Comment_119968336

Not sure about that, I've an EV with access to low cost charging and I live in County Dublin, but I won't drive into the city when I'm going to work. The bus is about 30-45 mins faster than driving

For someone out in the countryside the car journey is much greater. If anything you might see those EVs being used to drop someone off at the train station instead of being driven all the way to Dublin

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968336#Comment_119968336

Are EVs being subsidised? I thought that they were simply not being taxed as heavily as ICE cars.

Also, EV owners pay the same for their electricity as everyone else.

fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967939#Comment_119967939

Have you been on it recently? The trains are absolutely jammed these days. …

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968390#Comment_119968390

No, my experience was a few years ago, certainly well before COVID. So jammed these days, with people paying the full whack? Or people travelling for free or otherwise heavily subsidised? If the former, that would be good news, time to drop all existing subsidies, maybe even expand on the services if they are profit making.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968369#Comment_119968369

Less tax is the same as a subsidy. It’s an incentive to do something that costs the government money. In the case of EVs it costs the SEAI grants, the VRT forgone and the motor tax forgone.

fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968458#Comment_119968458

Jammed with commuters. But even when I’ve taken it on weekends it’s always busy. With all kinds.

( I bought my ev for Dublin commute and promptly changed to a job that I can commute to by train )

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968458#Comment_119968458

The subsidies are there for a reason, it's a political choice for the government to give free travel to pensioners and cheap travel to students and minors

Irish Rail still get paid for the tickets, it's just the government footing the bill so it doesn't mean the rail service doesn't make a profit

Personally I'm fine with passenger fare subsidies, public transport needs to be cheap to make it accessible for everyone. At the risk of angering some pensioners, I do think they should get reduced fares instead of free travel but that's my only complaint

Typically rail services don't make much money on passenger services, freight is where the money is. Irish Rail pretty much lost all their freight contracts years ago which effectively hollowed out most of their income and turned it into a permanent loss maker

MightyMunster

Is public transport not a public service, do we really expect it to make a profit?

On the train from Limerick to Dublin, used to link with the Cork train when I used it around 20yrs ago. Was always full, regularly had to stand or sit on the ground the whole way.

Bus was nearly always a better option as guaranteed a seat and was a quarter of the price.

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968336#Comment_119968336

Low cost charging? A thing of the past unfortunately, night rate on day/ night meters are what my 24 hour rate was a few months ago. Nobody in their right mind would get one of those stupid 2 hour EV smart meter plans and pay through the nose every other hour of the day. I'll be looking in 2024 to change the phev, it will be interesting to see how the figures stack up then.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968842#Comment_119968842

I think it's fine not to make a profit but operating at a huge loss wouldn't be viable either. A service which is entirely dependent on government funding is vulnerable to the whims of whatever political party is in power at the time

Having said that, not all routes will be cost effective to run and will need extensive support. I remember one of the Limerick routes was about to be closed down a few years ago until Irish Rail basically got forced to run the service

One thing I always thought might be a winner was high speed shuttle trains for cars and trucks.

Freight rail only works in a situation where you have a lot of bulky material being moved in high volumes between two fixed points, like a car factory to a port, or an iron mine to a smelting plant. Otherwise it's cheaper to just pave a road and use trucks

But if you had a situation like the channel tunnel where you could load trucks onto a train and go from something like Dublin to Cork. It would suit truck drivers since it effectively halves their travel time for a long distance load, and since they're resting while the train is moving it doesn't eat into their driving time.

So you could potentially get another load of cargo in a day than otherwise, meaning more income

And if the service could be made cheaper than the diesel costs of running the same journey in a truck then it's a cost saving too

I'm sure someone has crunched the numbers and said it doesn't work, but if combined with a passenger rail service it would add an extra revenue stream

unkel

@MightyMunster - "Bus was nearly always a better option as guaranteed a seat and was a quarter of the price."

You answered your own question there. The private sector can do it cheaper and better and without the tax payer having to foot most of the bill. If it was up to me, I would withdraw every cent of subsidy from all the unprofitable train routes overnight.

But hey, I think this is the wrong forum for all of this 😁

markpb

The 1960s called. They’re quite keen to get their opinions back. Dr. Beeching is lost without them!

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119969855#Comment_119969855

Regrettably the 1960s were a workers paradise compared to the crap people put up with today

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968676#Comment_119968676

They don't get paid per ticket though, they get an annual travelpass subvention.. meaning if 1 or 1000000 journeys take place they get the same subvention

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968369#Comment_119968369

Buy any new EV up to €59,999 and the Govt gifts you €5k. Lower tax is a taxpayer subsidy. Not saying its wrong to do so but it is a subsidy.

An earlier comment mentioned that so long as public transport is cheaper than petrol then people would be incentivised away from cars. However, home charging can be up to 5 times cheaper than petrol so less likely that EV drivers look at the financial incentives of public transport use

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119971263#Comment_119971263

The SEAI grant is a direct subsidy, tax brackets aren't a subsidy they are a taxation measure. You wouldn't say we are subsidising coffee to go because we charge the 9% VAT rate instead of the standard 23%.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119971263#Comment_119971263

Well the incentive doesn't just need to be financial. As I said, driving into Dublin is so mind numbingly awful that I take the bus despite it actually being more expensive than the electricity cost

the_amazing_raisin

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=81cZ8CSRcH4&feature=youtu.be

Interesting happenings going on in the UK, drops in used EV prices

My guess is that they're coming off their totally unaffordable peaks. And with the UK staring down a recession people are perhaps not willing to roll the dice on an expensive EV that might lose a lot of value in a few years time

So the big question I guess is whether it will be reflected here as well. I'm not so sure yet, supply is still low enough that I think prices will stay high in 2023. However with a bunch of cars coming off PCP in the next couple of years, there will no doubt be some downward pressure on prices around then

EDIT: FWIW I did a spot check for my car (VW ID.4 1st Max) and it looks like the asking price is either what I paid in 2021, or up to €5k more than that. So I guess any price drops are yet to happen here

wassie

Irish used car market was impacted not only by the global shortage of new cars, but in turn Brexit which basically overnight stopped the private car import market thanks to VAT & customs being payable and in turn raised import prices with dealers.

If there is a significant price decline, then there may be value to be had importing again, particularly on higher spec models. Sterling has rebounded in last few months against the Euro trading, but still trading lower than the last couple of years also.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119971839#Comment_119971839

Oh I agree and many will think the same way. However, the majority of people commuting by car are in single occupancy cars. This is despite the high cost of running ICEs. Will be even more difficult to shift people out of their serenely comfortable, tech laden and very economical to run EVs.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119971512#Comment_119971512

Who funds the grant?

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119972906#Comment_119972906

Sorry hit post button in error. Meant to add the same people as those who fund the opportunity cost of the tax foregone by exempting EVs from VRT. I would take the same view on the policy decision to charge lower VAT on the hotel sector etc. Again not saying it is wrong to do so, just that it is subsidy to the sector funded as always by the taxpayer.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119972265#Comment_119972265

This does not just apply exclusively to EVs though. Irish used car prices have increased across the board, blame Brexit and supply constraints predominantly. Even with extortionate VRT rates on imports it was still very worthwhile importing used cars fron UK prior to Brexit. I brought in a 2017 smax titanium sport in Nov 2020 for €23.5k all in. I just checked online there and seeing asking prices of €27 to €28k. Madness but a product of our currently dysfunctional car market. Can't last forever though so hopefully we'll see a gradual transition to more affordable used EV prices over the next couple of years.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119972974#Comment_119972974

Words have meaning, a subsidy is a payment to keep the costs of a product or service low. It is not called a subsidy when you choose to apply differential levels of taxation against a product or service. The government does not subsidise hot coffee purchases.

Alkers

Crazy cold this morning, after the car running through two ten minute pre-heat cycles (10 mins each), the door handles were still frozen solid and then the charge cable was frozen into the port. Had to defrost both with water to free them up.