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Father and daughter drown at US border

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    #662
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,310 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    The Democratic Party are also banking on Wall St. throwing a wall of money at them, so they won't do anything to rock that at the border.


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    #663
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,560 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Has any research shown any links between greater and lesser migration of people through Central America towards the USA, and the factors which might cause that level of migration to increase or decrease?

    My gut tells me that as long as the USA is the economic power it is (relative to the countries where people are coming from), they will continue to migrate, and that would be the main factor, rather than who the president is and what actually happens at the border.

    I mean, people have been trying, and dying, for decades. But I've never read about what (if anything) causes more or less migration. There is probably a perception that a Democratic president/government are more likely to let them remain in the USA, but does that actually lead to greater numbers at such times?

    Somebody made a decent point earlier that talk of building a wall might have created a sense of 'now or never' urgency that wasn't there before, which makes sense, but I've no idea if it is actually true or not in terms of increasing migrant numbers.

    Here's the economist reporting 132,000 migrant arrests in May 2019, which is the highest recorded number in 13 years, and a ninefold increase from May 2017, when border arrests were at the lowest levels in nearly 50 years.

    https://www.economist.com/united-states/2019/07/06/what-caused-the-shameful-scenes-at-americas-southern-border

    That might tie in with a sense of urgency brought on by the potential construction of a wall I suppose, but that might be way off too.

    Also I seem to remember reading somewhere that it was only in 2000, or 2001, or sometime fairly recently,that the USA started counting every migrant they picked up. Up until then loads of them were simply put on busses and taken back to the border without being counted. So that makes number crunching harder too I suppose.


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    #664
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,310 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Unless Ronald Reagan comes back from the dead or AOC becomes President, each as likely, this policy at the border will not see much change.

    Doubling down in it more likely.


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    #665
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Danzy wrote: »
    Unless Ronald Reagan comes back from the dead or AOC becomes President, each as likely, this policy at the border will not see much change.

    Doubling down in it more likely.

    Poor souls ; seems like from frying pan to fire.


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    #666
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Danzy wrote: »
    Unless Ronald Reagan comes back from the dead or AOC becomes President, each as likely, this policy at the border will not see much change.

    Doubling down in it more likely.

    AOC is a soundbite politician. She doesn't seem to have a clue about anything. After comparing the detention centres to concentrations camps, she doubled down by quoting nazi-harbourer Eva Peron over the weekend when talking about the border.


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    #667
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 39,647 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    AOC is a soundbite politician. She doesn't seem to have a clue about anything.

    So what you are saying is, she could be President?


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    #668
    MrFresh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭MrFresh


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    AOC is a soundbite politician. She doesn't seem to have a clue about anything. After comparing the detention centres to concentrations camps, she doubled down by quoting nazi-harbourer Eva Peron over the weekend when talking about the border.


    She's been extremely good in her job. She's definitely made some mistakes due to her inexperience but there's no justification in calling her a soundbyte politician. They make soundbytes of her because she generally makes good comments. The questions she puts to people before the house have been particularly well thought out and insightful.


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    #669
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    MrFresh wrote: »
    She's been extremely good in her job. She's definitely made some mistakes due to her inexperience but there's no justification in calling her a soundbyte politician. They make soundbytes of her because she generally makes good comments. The questions she puts to people before the house have been particularly well thought out and insightful.

    I can only imagine your horror if President Trump quoted a Nazi collaborator to reinforce a point he was making. :rolleyes:

    You are extremely predictable.


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    #670
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,310 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    AOC isn't popular with the public, among well heeled activists certainly but that is only a small portion.

    She isn't that bad at her job though.

    Pity she doesn't think more in detail on policy rather than just sometimes run with things.


    Her trivializing of concentration camps was off, generates headlines but is still off.


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    #671
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,381 ✭ [Deleted User]


    If they were honest with themselves, the US should have just used the term internment camps. They have historical experience housing people of different nationalities / ancestry temporarily and that's what they called the camps.


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    #672
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    If they were honest with themselves, the US should have just used the term internment camps. They have historical experience housing people of different nationalities / ancestry temporarily and that's what they called the camps.

    Japanese internment camps were also known as concentration camps...


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    #673
    MrFresh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭MrFresh


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    I can only imagine your horror if President Trump quoted a Nazi collaborator to reinforce a point he was making. :rolleyes:

    You are extremely predictable.


    Well there are a few things about that. First of all, I know Trump shares nazi ideals and AOC doesn't. Second, her quote had nothing to do with race or nationality or religion, it was a bout class and poverty. Third, AOC was directly responding to an article describing how Trump had compared her to Evita.


    But to help your imagination, I would not necessarily criticise Trump for quoting a nazi sympathiser. It depends on what he quoted and in relation to what.


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    #674
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    MrFresh wrote: »
    Well there are a few things about that. First of all, I know Trump shares nazi ideals and AOC doesn't. Second, her quote had nothing to do with race or nationality or religion, it was a bout class and poverty. Third, AOC was directly responding to an article describing how Trump had compared her to Evita.


    But to help your imagination, I would not necessarily criticise Trump for quoting a nazi sympathiser. It depends on what he quoted and in relation to what.

    :pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:


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    #675
    MrFresh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭MrFresh


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    :pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:


    As usual, the concept of context goes over your head. It's true though. Although granted it would be unlikely as Trump would rarely know who he was actually quoting and would get the quote wrong.


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    #676
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,381 ✭ [Deleted User]


    batgoat wrote: »
    Japanese internment camps were also known as concentration camps...

    They happened at the same time. Now internment camp is recognised as what happened in the US, and concentration camp is what happened in Germany.

    History will not remember the Mexican border camps as concentration camps. Heck, in a couple of years, they won't be called that. When the administration changes, they'll stay largely the same and if ever talked about, they'll be called detention centres I suppose.


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    #677
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Deleted User wrote: »
    They happened at the same time. Now internment camp is recognised as what happened in the US, and concentration camp is what happened in Germany.

    History will not remember the Mexican border camps as concentration camps. Heck, in a couple of years, they won't be called that. When the administration changes, they'll stay largely the same and if ever talked about, they'll be called detention centres I suppose.

    100%. I've never ever heard the internment camps on this island called concentration camps.


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    #678
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    They happened at the same time. Now internment camp is recognised as what happened in the US, and concentration camp is what happened in Germany.

    History will not remember the Mexican border camps as concentration camps. Heck, in a couple of years, they won't be called that. When the administration changes, they'll stay largely the same and if ever talked about, they'll be called detention centres I suppose.

    They're still historically recognised as concentration camps... They match the criteria of what defines a concentration camp. And you'll find plenty of modern history texts refer to Japanese internment as such. To say that the only recognised concentration camps to recognise as such were nazi ignores a lot of history btw.

    If you want I can reference numerous historical texts and articles that use the term concentration camp in relation to them. So both contemporarily and after the event they were called concentration camps...


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    #679
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,381 ✭ [Deleted User]


    batgoat wrote: »
    They're still historically recognised as concentration camps... They match the criteria of what defines a concentration camp. And you'll find plenty of modern history texts refer to Japanese internment as such. To say that the only recognised concentration camps to recognise as such were nazi ignores a lot of history btw.

    But culturally, Nazi camps will be the defacto concentration camp and until something on that level happens again in the west, it will stay that way. There will never be confusion in 50 years when someone says concentration camp and they're asked to confirm Mexican border or Germany.

    I've read that people in the camps on the Mexican border can leave and go South. Is that true? Genuine question. I've seen it mentioned on this site without much blowback.


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    #680
    MrFresh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭MrFresh


    Deleted User wrote: »
    But culturally, Nazi camps will be the defacto concentration camp and until something on that level happens again in the west, it will stay that way. There will never be confusion in 50 years when someone says concentration camp and they're asked to confirm Mexican border or Germany.

    I've read that people in the camps on the Mexican border can leave and go South. Is that true? Genuine question. I've seen it mentioned on this site without much blowback.


    I think many people recognise that there is a difference between the concentration camps and death camps. I'd have no issue describing camps were people are mistreated and abused as a concentration camps. Internment is generally associated more with rounding up one's own citizens. That's my own understanding anyway.


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    #681
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,381 ✭ [Deleted User]


    MrFresh wrote: »
    I think many people recognise that there is a difference between the concentration camps and death camps. I'd have no issue describing camps were people are mistreated and abused as a concentration camps. Internment is generally associated more with rounding up one's own citizens. That's my own understanding anyway.

    Right so Nazi concentration camps were like the Mexico border camps, and the Nazi death camps were a mile above where they actually killed people.

    So glad to learn history of a forum website. The insight is truly irreplaceable.


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    #682
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Right so Nazi concentration camps were like the Mexico border camps, and the Nazi death camps were a mile above where they actually killed people.

    So glad to learn history of a forum website. The insight is truly irreplaceable.

    You're doing a pretty big misrepresentation of what the poster said.


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    #683
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,381 ✭ [Deleted User]


    batgoat wrote: »
    You're doing a pretty big misrepresentation of what the poster said.

    Educate me.


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    #684
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Those illegal immigrant detention camps cannot be compared with concentration camps. That's ridiculous.

    They are prisons, that's what they are.


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    #685
    MrFresh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭MrFresh


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Those illegal immigrant detention camps cannot be compared with concentration camps. That's ridiculous.

    They are prisons, that's what they are.


    Prisoners have more rights and generally a defined period of detention.


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    #686
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    The left is calling the camps used to house illegal immigrants as Concentration Camps simply to invoke a comparison to Nazi Death Camps. Using dictionary definitions as an excuse to support the use of the name is disingenuous, at best. How about we call them Summer Camps for now on? And I laugh at how the left seems to think history starts today and it's all Trump’s fault. Anyone remember when Obama was called the 'Deporter In Chief?'

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



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    #687
    MrFresh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭MrFresh


    notobtuse wrote: »
    The left is calling the camps used to house illegal immigrants as Concentration Camps simply to invoke a comparison to Nazi Death Camps. Using dictionary definitions as an excuse to support the use of the name is disingenuous, at best. How about we call them Summer Camps for now on? And I laugh at how the left seems to think history starts today and it's all Trump’s fault. Anyone remember when Obama was called the 'Deporter In Chief?'


    But Obama! Clinton! Emails. Benghazi!


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    #688
    MrFresh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭MrFresh


    Border Patrol. Great bunch altogether.
    The Border Patrol Chief who released a statement expressing outrage after it was reported that current and former agents made xenophobic, misogynistic and racist comments in a secret Facebook group known as “I’m 10-15″ was reportedly a member of that group

    https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/border-patrol-chief-who-reacted-with-outrage-over-disturbing-online-group-was-a-member-of-the-group/


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    #689
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRrc8m1INVE


    Ouch. Yer wan Cortez is some dope.


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    #690
    MrFresh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭MrFresh


    Bambi wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRrc8m1INVE


    Ouch. Yer wan Cortez is some dope.


    I don't think you really followed what was being said.


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    #691
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    MrFresh wrote: »
    I don't think you really followed what was being said.

    I'll be generous and say I don't think you watched the video :)

    Though it's possible you're as on the ball as the bould Ms Cortez shows herself to be in that clip


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