Landlords to be responsible for ASBO tenants

Pkiernan

So, far left policies means that landlords cannot evict dirtbag ASBO tenants, but the same lefties want landlords fines when their ASBO tenants misbehave!

How have we ended up I this upside down world?

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/bad-neighbours-landlords-to-face-fines-if-they-fail-to-tackle-antisocial-behaviour-38244353.html

jam_mac_jam

Well if they apply it to council housing it might help the people that have to live near neighbours.

It needs support in that the landlord should be able to evict those that are acting anti social bit I don't think it's a crazy idea.

JJJackal

As long as you can evict quickly an excellent idea

Hal3000

Excellent idea. Landlords should be responsible for their premises and their tenants. They might think more before they rent out their places to absolute scrotes who inflict hell on normal people living beside them.

JJJackal

Hal3000 wrote: »

Excellent idea. Landlords should be responsible for their premises and their tenants. They might think more before they rent out their places to absolute scrotes who inflict hell on normal people living beside them.

I suspect some got LL are caught by seemingly good people turning out to be suboptimal

OldMrBrennan83

Ridiculous idea. Have the law come down on the people causing the issues.

Hal3000

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Ridiculous idea. Have the law come down on the people causing the issues.

That will never happen in this country. Fine the landlords. Get references and check people out before if you want to avoid fines. I know people who been through hell because some greedy landlord moved in total scumbags beside them. A family I knew of almost had to move out. A hard working family aswell with young kids. Gardai did absolutely nothing and landlord wouldn't return their calls. Took pressure from a whole residents association to get them out in the end. Landlord use to show up in his Merc at night to collect rent and then fly off... Scumbag.

jam_mac_jam

JJJackal wrote: »

Hal3000 wrote: »

Excellent idea. Landlords should be responsible for their premises and their tenants. They might think more before they rent out their places to absolute scrotes who inflict hell on normal people living beside them.

I suspect some got LL are caught by seemingly good people turning out to be suboptimal

I suspect it some landlords don't care and they might be more careful who they rent to

JJJackal

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I suspect it some landlords don't care and they might be more careful who they rent to

I agree with this too

the_syco

Hal3000 wrote: »

They might think more before they rent out their places to absolute scrotes who inflict hell on normal people living beside them.

And how can the landlord get rid of the scrotes?

Hal3000

the_syco wrote: »

And how can the landlord get rid of the scrotes?

Simple, don't rent to them...

JJJackal

Hal3000 wrote: »

Simple, don't rent to them...

Some blend in well - good first impressions

Del2005

Hal3000 wrote: »

Simple, don't rent to them...

Then the landlord will get fined by the WRC.

It's easy for a perspective tenant to look good, not helped by the current situation where its easier for a landlord to pay trouble tenants to move and give them glowing references, and impossible for a landlord to evict them if they turn out to be scum.

Eric Cartman

the government : no more denying HAP, no asking for work references, daft ad isnt even allowed ask for 'professionals only'
landlords : but we're sick of antisocial tenants destroying properties and making everyone around them suffer
the government : you'll also be fined when they do that.

:rolleyes:
Absolute joke of a country.

Hal3000

JJJackal wrote: »

Some blend in well - good first impressions

Those cases are in the minority. We need more accountability in this country. Place is turning into a cestpit. Gardai are far too busy to deal with antisocial tenants. Landlords will think twice before inflicting misery on communities if there are fines. Councils should also be fined alike for scrote tenants. Don't like it then sell and don't rent. Too many excuses for everything in this kip.

JJJackal

Hal3000 wrote: »

Those cases are in the minority. We need more accountability in this country. Place is turning into a cestpit. Gardai are far too busy to deal with antisocial tenants. Landlords will think twice before inflicting misery on communities. Councils should be fined alike. Don't like it then sell and don't rent. Too many excuses for everything in this kip.

You cant even sell your own house in this country! Difficult to get tenants out

Need a complete new framework and legislation re buying selling and renting property

Gumbo

Hal3000 wrote: »

Those cases are in the minority. We need more accountability in this country. Place is turning into a cestpit. Gardai are far too busy to deal with antisocial tenants. Landlords will think twice before inflicting misery on communities if there are fines. Councils should also be fined alike for scrote tenants. Don't like it then sell and don't rent. Too many excuses for everything in this kip.

Takes 2 years to get rid of ASB tenants.
Landlord is powerless in this country with the rights of the tenant weighted strongly in their favour.
Can’t sell with the tenant in place.

I welcome this idea IF the government legislate for very swift elections for repeat ASB tenants.

hmmm

Great stuff & finally, and hopefully it gives landlords the power to quickly move on problem tenants. Hopefully this will also apply to local authority tenants.

Personally I think the fines should be paid to Management companies in managed estates, it'd be a small recompense.

Fol20

Hal3000 wrote: »

Those cases are in the minority. We need more accountability in this country. Place is turning into a cestpit. Gardai are far too busy to deal with antisocial tenants. Landlords will think twice before inflicting misery on communities if there are fines. Councils should also be fined alike for scrote tenants. Don't like it then sell and don't rent. Too many excuses for everything in this kip.

I love the way you put 100pc of the blame on the lol. It’s not the lol that lives there. The lol isn’t being anti social. It’s the tenant. The tenant should be fined. Not the ll. Like everything. It’s being passed down to the ll yet again.

voluntary

hmmm wrote: »

Great stuff & finally, and hopefully it gives landlords the power to quickly move on problem tenants. Hopefully this will also apply to local authority tenants.

And what a local authority would do with such tenants? Make them homeless? LA is often the last resort, the very bottom of 'the property ladder'.

hmmm

voluntary wrote: »

And what a local authority would do with such tenants? Make them homeless? LA is often the last resort, the very bottom of 'the property ladder'.

Make them homeless - shift them to a B&B or hostel in the backarse of nowhere, or let their family look after them. Why should I (their neighbour) care - do I not have some sort of rights here also?

voluntary

hmmm wrote: »

Make them homeless - shift them to a B&B or hostel in the backarse of nowhere, or let their family look after them. Why should I (their neighbour) care - do I not have some sort of rights here also?

Unless you can offer a realistic solution, no one will take you seriously.

voluntary

Here's one option. Pay them to behave well.

Eric Cartman

voluntary wrote: »

Here's one option. Pay them to behave well.

sure theres already the argument that if we don't pay them they'll turn to crime, so we built the worlds most generous welfare state and this is how they behave, how much more money do we need to give them to just stop being terrible neighbours.

voluntary

Eric Cartman wrote: »

sure theres already the argument that if we don't pay them they'll turn to crime, so we built the worlds most generous welfare state and this is how they behave, how much more money do we need to give them to just stop being terrible neighbours.

No welfare rewards are behavior dependent at this time. The community may as well chose to pay extra for behaving within some accepted frames.

Any better ideas?

Eric Cartman

voluntary wrote: »

No welfare rewards are behavior dependent at this time. The community may as well chose to pay extra for behaving within some accepted frames.

Any better ideas?

well you can't fine them because our legal system doesn't let you take more than a 5er a week, you can't lock them up as theres no space, theres nowhere else to move them to. Realistically you can't effectively punish them under current frameworks and by christ would anyone find it favourable to vote for a "bonus payment" if they do such basic things like not have the police around, no loose animals and don't be partying till 5am on a tuesday.

voluntary

If you can't use stick, use the carrot.

Jupiter Mulligan

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the government : no more denying HAP, no asking for work references, daft ad isnt even allowed ask for 'professionals only'
landlords : but we're sick of antisocial tenants destroying properties and making everyone around them suffer
the government : you'll also be fined when they do that.

:rolleyes:
Absolute joke of a country.

This latest asinine proposal came from an Opposition TD - if the government has an iota of cop-on (debatable) it will reject it.

hmmm

voluntary wrote: »

Unless you can offer a realistic solution, no one will take you seriously.

What's unrealistic about it? Tenants get evicted all the times for anti-social behaviour, this bill seems to be designed to just make it a bit easier.

What has always been missing in these arguments is the rights of the neighbours who have to live beside these people.

"But where will they go..". I mean it when I say I don't care, and neither I imagine do most people - the local authorities can find somewhere for them. Personally I think we should build Ballymun style towers in Foxrock or Killiney beside the houses of judges, newspaper editors and senior civil servants, and house them there.

Graham

hmmm wrote: »

I think we should build Ballymun style towers in Foxrock or Killiney beside the houses of judges, newspaper editors and senior civil servants, and house them there.

Because you just don't like judges, newspaper editors and senior civil servants? Or some other reason?

overkill602

I do agree some LLs don't care or through inexperienced maybe end up with with a bad tenant they must take responsibility but LA's are probably the worst when it comes to managing rentals.
Anti social behavior needs a multi agency approach with a little bit of stick.
The TD who came out with this is just following the crowd....

No problem i choose quality over high rent i don't take HAP, Irish or a hand of nationalities i know who make trouble.

The_Conductor

The only manner in which this has any fair chance of working- is if there is a mechanism for a landlord to swiftly evict a tenant who behaves in an antisocial manner. The current situation- where regardless of what the landlord does or doesn't do- they are to the blame, and regardless of how bad the situation is- they are forbidden to take any action- is simply untenable.

It must be noted that antisocial behavior only happens with a tiny minority or tenants- and similarly, the lions share of landlords behave in a fair and business manner towards both their tenants and those who are affected by the their tenants (residents of neighbouring properties etc).

There are a small but notable cohort of problem tenants for whom there isn't any current answer over what we are supposed to do with them. It is unfair that the landlord is both blamed for their actions and simultaneously told he/she can't do anything- this is the knux of the issue.

If you want to hold landlords responsible for their tenants- the very least you can do is give them the legislative and supportive base to take action to sort out these type problems as they arise.

Shefwedfan

Landlords might as well just sell up to overseas investment, sell the whole lot

Tenants never stop whining, we want this, get it and then something else

Let’s see how they get on trying to deal with some lad in Canada or Kuwait who couldn’t give a c**p the tap is leaking.

For the government what they are trying to do is create as many tyrellstown as possible around Ireland....places that the Garda don’t even bother with anymore

Funny part on this thread is people thinking this is good, let’s see how you like your neighbourhood when you can’t walk out front door....can’t get Taxi because they won’t go into area, take out? No chance....

We will see what you say then

The_Conductor

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Funny part on this thread is people thinking this is good, let’s see how you like your neighbourhood when you can’t walk out front door....can’t get Taxi because they won’t go into area, take out? No chance....

We will see what you say then

Large and increasing areas of West Dublin fall into these type situations- and its only getting worse. Hell- even An Post won't deliver post in 2 estates in Tallaght and on one road in another SDCC administered area.

People need to be held responsible for their actions. At the moment- they misbehave- precisely because there are no consequences.

Markcheese

voluntary wrote: »

And what a local authority would do with such tenants? Make them homeless? LA is often the last resort, the very bottom of 'the property ladder'.

Youre right the local authority (or a state body) is going to need a definite policy,
Decent, ordinary Local authority shouldn't be penalised either, so there's going to need to be sink estates...Not nice, not easy or cheap to run,but you'd have to earn your way in, and earn your way out... And as to where you put those estates...

Hal3000

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Landlords might as well just sell up to overseas investment, sell the whole lot

Tenants never stop whining, we want this, get it and then something else

Let’s see how they get on trying to deal with some lad in Canada or Kuwait who couldn’t give a c**p the tap is leaking.

For the government what they are trying to do is create as many tyrellstown as possible around Ireland....places that the Garda don’t even bother with anymore

Funny part on this thread is people thinking this is good, let’s see how you like your neighbourhood when you can’t walk out front door....can’t get Taxi because they won’t go into area, take out? No chance....

We will see what you say then

How is it not good? It means that if you live next door to a load of lunatics making noise night and day finally someone might be accountable and something might actually happen...

Would be great to see this come in, along with legislation that 1) allows a landlord to skip the notice period and evict immediately, and 2) applies the same responsibility to the Council.

As a general rule of thumb, the Council will host most of the awkward tenants, as they won't generally get in with a landlord that has any cop on. But the Council's aren't allowed kick them out onto the streets. So they have to re-house them elsewhere. Which can be expensive and time consuming, so the Council's just turn a blind eye.

I think the Council should have the option of making a family homeless. I was told before by an anti-social behaviour officer, that if a family get reported, and don't get their act together, then they are evicted and considered to be 'voluntarily homeless' by the Council. I love this line of thinking. Unfortunately, I've never seen, nor heard, of it actually working like that in real life. It would be a step in the right direction if it did.

The_Conductor

Hal3000 wrote: »

How is it not good? It means that if you live next door to a load of lunatics making noise night and day finally someone might be accountable and something might actually happen...

The landlord though?
So- you fine the landlord because his tenants are antisocial asshats- but the landlord still can't do anything. So you fine him again. And he still can't do anything. You fine him ad nauseum- and he still can't do anything.

Until such time as there is a viable mechanism for getting these asshats out of a neighbourhood in a prompt manner- and they are held responsible for their actions- its simply going to continue.

Using the landlord as a scapegoat (yet again)- when you're not going to give him/her the tools they need to manage the situation- is myopic and misguided. No wonder the numbers of landlords are in freefall.

dhaughton99

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Would be great to see this come in, along with legislation that 1) allows a landlord to skip the notice period and evict immediately, and 2) applies the same responsibility to the Council.

As a general rule of thumb, the Council will host most of the awkward tenants, as they won't generally get in with a landlord that has any cop on. But the Council's aren't allowed kick them out onto the streets. So they have to re-house them elsewhere. Which can be expensive and time consuming, so the Council's just turn a blind eye.

I think the Council should have the option of making a family homeless. I was told before by an anti-social behaviour officer, that if a family get reported, and don't get their act together, then they are evicted and considered to be 'voluntarily homeless' by the Council. I love this line of thinking. Unfortunately, I've never seen, nor heard, of it actually working like that in real life. It would be a step in the right direction if it did.

I’ve seen in here with a family which caused nothing but trouble in this estate for years. What do the council do? Give one of their sons a house in the same estate when he declared “homeless”.

Bob24

The_Conductor wrote: »

The only manner in which this has any fair chance of working- is if there is a mechanism for a landlord to swiftly evict a tenant who behaves in an antisocial manner. The current situation- where regardless of what the landlord does or doesn't do- they are to the blame, and regardless of how bad the situation is- they are forbidden to take any action- is simply untenable.

It must be noted that antisocial behavior only happens with a tiny minority or tenants- and similarly, the lions share of landlords behave in a fair and business manner towards both their tenants and those who are affected by the their tenants (residents of neighbouring properties etc).

There are a small but notable cohort of problem tenants for whom there isn't any current answer over what we are supposed to do with them. It is unfair that the landlord is both blamed for their actions and simultaneously told he/she can't do anything- this is the knux of the issue.

If you want to hold landlords responsible for their tenants- the very least you can do is give them the legislative and supportive base to take action to sort out these type problems as they arise.

Yes I think the problem here is to request that someone achieves a certain result, without clearly defining what the result should be or giving them the means to achieve it.

If landlords have to be held responsible for tackling antisocial behaviour it has to be clearly defined what anti-social behaviour is and what a landlord is meant to do to tackle it.

The way I would look at it is that a state body (possibly the guards after being called in a few times and witnessing it) should on behalf of the state declare that there is a verified occurrence of antisocial behaviour. And then there should be a clear action path for the landlord and tenant to tackle the situation. Fining the landlord for not following that action path would be fair, but fining them if they followed the action path but it didn’t lead to a resolution wouldn’t be fair (rather that a lack of will to tackle the issue on the LL’s side, the failure would likely be more related to the inefficiency of what the law allows the LL to do to tackle the issue).

handlemaster

Hal3000 wrote: »

How is it not good? It means that if you live next door to a load of lunatics making noise night and day finally someone might be accountable and something might actually happen...

what is the landlord going to do about it . tell them now lads be quite. Tenants like that only understand eviction and the landlord has very little powers to evict.

cursai

Has any thought been given to hold the gardai responsible for tenants behaviour. Maybe fines through their wages etc.. Surely this is in the remit of the Gardai. Why else would they be the only ones available to take phone calls in the middle of the night? Surely surely.

The_Conductor

cursai wrote: »

Has any thought been given to hold the gardai responsible for tenants behaviour. Maybe fines through their wages etc.. Surely this is in the remit of the Gardai. Why else would they be the only ones available to take phone calls in the middle of the night? Surely surely.

?
You're suggesting fining individual Garda Members- with a wage deduction, if antisocial behaviour is detected in tenants in the functional Divisions under which a Garda is stationed?

How is that any fairer than fining the landlord?

How does any of this act as a deterent to the tenant and encourage normal behaviour from them?

Why am I even responding to this suggestion? Its as nutty as another suggestion in this thread which suggested we incentivise tenants not to act in an antisocial manner........

Shefwedfan

Hal3000 wrote: »

How is it not good? It means that if you live next door to a load of lunatics making noise night and day finally someone might be accountable and something might actually happen...

As pointed out what can the landlord do if he/she isn't allowed to throw them out?

They go over, tell them to be quiet, walk out the door and they can do exactly what they want. THe landlord can't move into the house and make sure they are good....


The worst idea they ever came up with.....and they have come up with some stupid ones.....

Hal3000

Shefwedfan wrote: »

As pointed out what can the landlord do if he/she isn't allowed to throw them out?

They go over, tell them to be quiet, walk out the door and they can do exactly what they want. THe landlord can't move into the house and make sure they are good....


The worst idea they ever came up with.....and they have come up with some stupid ones.....

Typical Irish attitude. Keep passing on the blame to some one else until nothing happens. Fair enough eviction needs to be tightened up, but until then get references and do proper checks. Most of the time you'll get good tenants. Yes, not always and there are rare exceptions, but let's not kid ourselves, you can usually tell bad people within a minute of meeting them. I'm all for this purely to support people who have to live beside absolute scumbags.

Bob24

The_Conductor wrote: »

?
You're suggesting fining individual Garda Members- with a wage deduction, if antisocial behaviour is detected in tenants in the functional Divisions under which a Garda is stationed?

How is that any fairer than fining the landlord?

How does any of this act as a deterent to the tenant and encourage normal behaviour from them?

Why am I even responding to this suggestion? Its as nutty as another suggestion in this thread which suggested we incentivise tenants not to act in an antisocial manner........

I think the post was not to be taken literally, and is rather meant to outline the issues with the original landlord fines suggestion by extending it to the guards. Just my understanding anyway.

Shefwedfan

Hal3000 wrote: »

Typical Irish attitude. Keep passing on the blame to some one else until nothing happens. Fair enough eviction needs to be tightened up, but until then get references and do proper checks. Most of the time you'll get good tenants. Yes, not always and there are rare exceptions, but let's not kid ourselves, you can usually tell bad people within a minute of meeting them. I'm all for this purely to support people who have to live beside absolute scumbags.

Who is passing on the blame? if they want to make landlords responsible then at least give the landlord the option of throwing out the tenant.



Do you rent properties? have you ever rented properties?

Gumbo

Hal3000 wrote: »

Typical Irish attitude. Keep passing on the blame to some one else until nothing happens. Fair enough eviction needs to be tightened up, but until then get references and do proper checks. Most of the time you'll get good tenants. Yes, not always and there are rare exceptions, but let's not kid ourselves, you can usually tell bad people within a minute of meeting them. I'm all for this purely to support people who have to live beside absolute scumbags.

Typical Irish Attitude...Attempt to fine the one person that can do nothing about it.

amcalester

Hal3000 wrote: »

Typical Irish attitude. Keep passing on the blame to some one else until nothing happens. Fair enough eviction needs to be tightened up, but until then get references and do proper checks. Most of the time you'll get good tenants. Yes, not always and there are rare exceptions, but let's not kid ourselves, you can usually tell bad people within a minute of meeting them. I'm all for this purely to support people who have to live beside absolute scumbags.

But this does nothing to help the neighbours. If the landlord can't evict, or can't evict quickly, then it doesn't matter how much the neighbours complain or how much the landlord is fined, the tenants will continue to act the bollix.

If faster evictions were possible for anti-social tenants there'd be no need to fine landlords because the tenants would already have been evicted.

Plebian

Hal3000 wrote: »

That will never happen in this country. Fine the landlords. Get references and check people out before if you want to avoid fines. I know people who been through hell because some greedy landlord moved in total scumbags beside them. A family I knew of almost had to move out. A hard working family aswell with young kids. Gardai did absolutely nothing and landlord wouldn't return their calls. Took pressure from a whole residents association to get them out in the end. Landlord use to show up in his Merc at night to collect rent and then fly off... Scumbag.

Which is why we need a more European long term renting model here, with more tenant rights, and rent controls. Our obsession with home ownership is holding us back.

Apiarist

Plebian wrote: »

Which is why we need a more European long term renting model here, with more tenant rights, and rent controls. ....

In some European countries you will get a visit from the police if you switch on music a bit loud after 9 pm. And the tenant can get in real trouble for the antisocial behavior, not the landlord.