Chinese atrocities = silence?

archer22

BlackandGreen wrote: »

No, thats being used by the Chinese as an excuse to curbstomp civil liberties and take over Hong Kong from the inside, extradite every person they deem a criminal, i.e anybody who criticises the PRC and speaks out against their atrocities.

I urge you to actually read into this more than just that.


There have been numerous protest over the past week with over a million people attending every time.


Do you genuinely believe that those 1 million people are out there protesting because they don't want 1 murderer extradited?



Please educate yourself and spend more time reading about what the ramifications and history of China trying to overtake Hong Kong are.

Please educate yourself and find out that Hong Kong IS a part of China...there is no "trying to overtake" it's a done deal.
BTW I was not explaining the reason the protesters were out but rather the reason the lady who runs Hong Kong wanted to change the law.

I thought that would be obvious!

dublin99

archer22 wrote: »

Please educate yourself and find out that Hong Kong IS a part of China...there is no "trying to overtake" it's a done deal.
BTW I was not explaining the reason the protesters were out but rather the reason the lady who runs Hong Kong wanted to change the law.

I thought that would be obvious!

NO! Hong Kong is NOT China. The message is loud and clear. Just look at the banners in the recent protests.

Sovereignty of Hong Kong was handed back to China in 1997 under the Joint Declaration signed between UK and China. HK is a Special Administrative Zone and is governed under the "One Country Two System" principle for 50 years till 2047 which China is trying to ignore. Hong Kong has the specially drafted Basic Law based on common law (which has provisions for freedom of speech, human rights etc which do not exist in China) which is essentially the constitution.

The most important difference is that Hong Kong has separation of power and RULE of LAW. That does not exist in China. The so called legal system is China is a joke. There is NO fair trial. Whoever gives a bigger bribe wins in Court.

China tries to eradicate anyone who criticises the country, its leaders or those who help activists who want changes. Just look up the story of Liu Xiaobo or the fate of human rights lawyers like Wang Quanzhang. If the extradition bill passes, anyone (even those transiting through HK airport) can be extradited to China on some made up allegations like subversion and tortured or locked up or just disappeared.

Hong Kong Chinese distinguish themselves from the mainland Chinese. Many hate the mainlanders. They particularly dislike the mainlanders who have been allowed to move to Hong Kong after the handover. The sheer number has caused crisis in the local housing, education and health system. Hong Kong has also become a money laundering centre and stepping stone to the West for corrupt Chinese Officials, where a one bed room apartment costs upwards of a million euro and young Hongkongers despair as there is no way they can afford their own home!

archer22

dublin99 wrote: »

NO! Hong Kong is NOT China. The message is loud and clear. Just look at the banners in the recent protests.

Sovereignty of Hong Kong was handed back to China in 1997 under the Joint Declaration signed between UK and China. HK is a Special Administrative Zone and is governed under the "One Country Two System" principle for 50 years till 2047 which China is trying to ignore. Hong Kong has the specially drafted Basic Law based on common law (which has provisions for freedom of speech, human rights etc which do not exist in China) which is essentially the constitution.

The most important difference is that Hong Kong has separation of power and RULE of LAW. That does not exist in China. The so called legal system is China is a joke. There is NO fair trial. Whoever gives a bigger bribe wins in Court.

China tries to eradicate anyone who criticises the country, its leaders or those who help activists who want changes. Just look up the story of Liu Xiaobo or the fate of human rights lawyers like Wang Quanzhang. If the extradition bill passes, anyone (even those transiting through HK airport) can be extradited to China on some made up allegations like subversion and tortured or locked up or just disappeared.

Hong Kong Chinese distinguish themselves from the mainland Chinese. Many hate the mainlanders. They particularly dislike the mainlanders who have been allowed to move to Hong Kong after the handover. The sheer number has caused crisis in the local housing, education and health system. Hong Kong has also become a money laundering centre and stepping stone to the West for corrupt Chinese Officials, where a one bed room apartment costs upwards of a million euro and young Hongkongers despair as there is no way they can afford their own home!

Which is why Hong Kong needs an extradition treaty with China.

It's also now becoming a safe haven for murderers not only from the mainland but also from Taiwan as is the case that sparked all of this.

Do you not think that Carrie Lam has a duty as leader to address this ridiculous situation before Hong Kong turns into the wild west of the east?

And why should she resign as the protesters demand for simply doing her job

riclad

Theres a trade war going on between china and america,
Look at human rights in saudia arabia , certain countrys get a pass as long as they supply oil and buy arms from the uk and america .
Luxembourg and the uk have been money laundering centres for years .Russians set up shell companys and use them to buy property in london ,
its an easy way to launder money .
Theres loads of articles about china and surveillancce and the imprisonment of minority groups and anyone who protests about human
rights .
people have been kidnapped in hong kong and turned up in chinese prisons and labour camps .
Hong kong has been a haven of democracy and it has an open neutral
justice system.
China wants to pass an extradition bill so they can imprison people who fight for human rights and democracy in china .
They also are refusing visa ,s to reporters who have written articles
about the lack of freedom and human rights violations in china .
Hong kong is a centre for international finance and business in
the east ,
they only cancelled the extradition bill because of the massive public protests that accurred .
The protesters used certain apps to communicate and organise ,and also
to send images to foreign media .
All business in china is to a large extent controlled by the chinese
communist party,
its well known to open a factory or buy land you may need to bribe officials ,
All Foreign companys who wish to acess the chinese market
have to partner up with a chinese company .
Those people are protesting because they know they will lose all freedom of speech if any one who wants to protest is at risk of being arrested and sent to china and appearing in court where there is no open justice system,
there is no independent judicial system in china .
Are you saying because there was one murder in hong kong than all democracy and free speech in hong kong should be erased and it should just be put under the direct control
of a government which is notorious for corruption and its lack of respect for open independent justice and basic human rights .

cursai

A lot of hypocrisy among critics. I say let them off and let the world burn.

Yurt2

archer22 wrote: »

Which is why Hong Kong needs an extradition treaty with China.

It's also now becoming a safe haven for murderers not only from the mainland but also from Taiwan as is the case that sparked all of this.

Do you not think that Carrie Lam has a duty as leader to address this ridiculous situation before Hong Kong turns into the wild west of the east?

And why should she resign as the protesters demand for simply doing her job

The PRC will not be extraditing to HK, least of all for party officials. Any corruption gets dealt with in-house, under the veil of the party controlled judiciary. Do you honestly believe that the party would allow an open trial in a common law system and have their dirty laundry aired in full view of the world's media? Come off it.

Lam has been thoroughly vetted by BJ, the extradition law is BJ's law - the people know this and they don't like it one bit. Like many incidents preceding it, it serves to undermine the 1 country 2 systems framework. BJ has pushed too hard and doesn't understand the blowback. Indeed, they never really have to deal with such things on the mainland, so are completely at sea when it happens. The net effect of trying to accelerate integration is that they have completely lost the younger generation. Connected people aged 50 and over are net beneficiaries of close dealings with BJ, and many held their nose despite not respecting the party, got wealthy, as they knew they'll be pushing up daisies by the time 2047 comes around. Not so for younger people - life has become more difficult for them and they know they'll be around in a couple of decades to deal with the fallout of what's happening today.

fatknacker

No one cares about colonialism unless it's British colonialism.

Hector Savage

The Chinese are not white, so it doesn't fit the modern leftist agenda of the white man is the ultimate evil.
They are stuck here on whether to condemn the Chinese and appear as "racist" - or they can take the easy way out and put on a pussy hat and wail at the sky for an hour cos Trump said "pussy"


They'll take the easy way.

Yurt2

Hector Savage wrote: »

The Chinese are not white, so it doesn't fit the modern leftist agenda of the white man is the ultimate evil.
They are stuck here on whether to condemn the Chinese and appear as "racist" - or they can take the easy way out and put on a pussy hat and wail at the sky for an hour cos Trump said "pussy"


They'll take the easy way.

I'm going proffer the argument that as a 'rightist' you don't care all that much about the fate of HK either. Just a useful thing to wheel out.

Governments of all stripes across the West (starting with Nixon and his 'silent majority' right leaning backers) made a Faustian pact with the PRC a long time ago. They were entranced by the prospect of a huge new market of consumers and a cheap pliant labour force to outsource the globe's supply chain to. The theory was one of 'convergance,' that once consumers got a taste for Pizza Hut and Volkswagens, as a natural follow on, they'd start getting a taste for our liberties as well. The west was prepared to overlook almost everything, and I'll argue the right above all, because the money was flowing and Deng Xiaoping wore a cowboy hat at a rodeo once upon a time.

Hector Savage

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

They are literally terrified of their government. And extreme poverty is NORMAL.

Plus you can't own your own house and its difficult to pass wealth down. Not impossible but hard.

I live in Spain and all the Chinese here are f*cking LOADED !!!

Like ridiculous amounts of money....

Yurt2

Hector Savage wrote: »

I live in Spain and all the Chinese here are f*cking LOADED !!!

Like ridiculous amounts of money....

Say what you will about the government, and there's much to criticize them on, but the scale of transformation in rural areas is astonishing. I've been lucky enough to see the Chinese countryside over a decade ago, and there was still mostly unpaved roads - a lot of dereliction, no shops, still very much in the great leap forward era.

You can go back now, and even the poorest provinces like Gansu or Qinghai, there are new public squares, refurbished schools, new roads linking villages and most(or at least a lot of) families will have vehicles. The poverty alleviation and social change has been the biggest the world has ever seen one can argue.

Hector Savage

Yurt! wrote: »

Say what you will about the government, and there's much to criticize them on, but the scale of transformation in rural areas is astonishing. I've been lucky enough to see the Chinese countryside over a decade ago, and there was still mostly unpaved roads - a lot of dereliction, no shops, still very much in the great leap forward era.

You can go back now, and even the poorest provinces like Gansu or Qinghai, there are new public squares, refurbished schools, new roads linking villages and most(or at least a lot of) families will have vehicles. The poverty alleviation and social change has been the biggest the world has ever seen one can argue.

The days of boiling a dog in a pot so the village can eat are long long gone.

At what cost though ? , every person in China now will want a western lifestyle, new phone every year, charge said phone every day ... tablet ... laptop.
Not to mention cars.


Energy requirements totally unsustainable.

Yurt2

Hector Savage wrote: »

At what cost though ? , every person in China now will want a western lifestyle, new phone every year, charge said phone every day ... tablet ... laptop.
Not to mention cars.


Energy requirements totally unsustainable.

I'd agree, the environmental burden is off the scale. But can we realistically tell an increasingly powerful country that they can't have nice things while Fritz in Dusseldorf and Sandra in Denver can have it all? The West will have to set the pace with climate change initiatives and hope that China will follow suit.

Hector Savage

Yurt! wrote: »

I'd agree, the environmental burden is off the scale. But can we realistically tell an increasingly powerful country that they can't have nice things while Fritz in Dusseldorf and Sandra in Denver can have it all? The West will have to set the pace with climate change initiatives and hope that China will follow suit.

Indeed, long term solution, they can start by having less kids (westerners).

ohnonotgmail

Hector Savage wrote: »

Indeed, long term solution, they can start by having less kids (westerners).

the western country with the highest birth rate is new zealand. It is already below the replacement rate. reducing birth rates in western countries will achieve nothing.

Say my name

Yurt! wrote: »

I'd agree, the environmental burden is off the scale. But can we realistically tell an increasingly powerful country that they can't have nice things while Fritz in Dusseldorf and Sandra in Denver can have it all? The West will have to set the pace with climate change initiatives and hope that China will follow suit.

When people become affluent the birthrate drops. Whether through working harder and longer or just plain negativity associated with children bringing about a drop in affluence and freedom or increased education of women meaning they want a life for themselves.

Bit rich for westerners telling the world how to live when a modern western invention 'bitcoin' is responsible for the consumption of energy of a small country daily.

Yurt2

Say my name wrote: »

When people become affluent the birthrate drops. Whether through working harder and longer or just plain negativity associated with children bringing about a drop in affluence and freedom or increased education of women meaning they want a life for themselves.

Bit rich for westerners telling the world how to live when a modern western invention 'bitcoin' is responsible for the consumption of energy of a small country daily.

Checkout some of the industrial sized bitcoin farms in China. It wouldn't surprise me if the vast majority of mining happened there now. They're well into it - it was and is a useful way get around currency exchange controls aimed at curbing capital flight that the government instituted!

dublin99

Yurt! wrote: »

Not so for younger people - life has become more difficult for them and they know they'll be around in a couple of decades to deal with the fallout of what's happening today.

The young people who had been insensitive to politics (and many were too young to be involved in the Umbrella Movement in 2014) finally had enough and the extradition law was more of a catalyst. However this time round, the youngsters had no leader as such but got together through a popular forum/chatroom (rather like boards.ie) called LIHKG. That's where members discussed strategy and organised flash protests and the barricade of the Police HQ through Telegram and Whatsapp groups.

To put things in perspectives, there was a suggestion to put front page ads in International newspapers to raise awareness about Hong Kong (after China announced the Hong Kong matter would NOT be raised during the G20) on 27 June. Within a few hours, crowdfunding target of €600,000 was surpassed. The local paypal system was jammed. The power of people.

ILoveYourVibes

marieholmfan

Hector Savage wrote: »

Indeed, long term solution, they can start by having less kids (westerners).

The west isn't the problem; the problem is the USA.

marieholmfan

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Oh no not the MULSIMS ! Well they may be vanishing in China but they seem to be everywhere here.

Also what is it with idiots (not pointing at anyone in particular here of course) and video links. I can read. I don't want to watch a thirty minute video.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Hector Savage wrote: »

Indeed, long term solution, they can start by having less kids (westerners).

Westerners aren’t having enough kids.

The Chinese are doing something about the environment and have the will to do it. They are signatories of the Paris agreement.

Democracy is a problem when it comes to the sacrifices needed. Europe is ok. The US is crazy.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-climatechange-china/chinas-climate-ambition-pledge-could-lead-to-tougher-co2-targets-experts-idUSKCN1TX0SY

ILoveYourVibes

marieholmfan wrote: »

Oh no not the MULSIMS ! Well they may be vanishing in China but they seem to be everywhere here.

Also what is it with idiots (not pointing at anyone in particular here of course) and video links. I can read. I don't want to watch a thirty minute video.

It shows Xinjiang where the uighurs have lived for centuries. They live with the Han Chinese in the region.

It shows the police training all the Han Chinese in the region to beat people up. All han business owners in the city etc.

It shows police marching random people down the streets.

It shows police stopping anyone from speaking to foreigners on camera.

It speaks to former detainees. They say their houses were taken by Han Chinese when they were detained.

They say women were forced to have pregnancy tests and all pregnancies where aborted. They say they want to get rid of the Uighur population. They say their DNA was taken. That the shape of their noses was measured. Their voices recorded.

They say Uighur children are being taken from their parents and put in orphanages.

They say detainees are kept for years with their feet in shackles. One woman says her feet where in shackles for one year three months and ten days.

They say there are empty towns where its clear whole families children etc have disappeared.

Over one million Uighurs are thought to be detained or worse dead.

kowloon

beejee wrote: »

That's a fantastically bad idea.

There was some uproar in Canada (?) not so long ago, about Chinese students reporting back to china on the "inappropriate behaviour" of other students.

They're hardly going to come home and report on how great it is. The wise will keep their mouths shut.

archer22

There is only one solution lads...head off to Beijing and tell them to their faces what you think of them.

Flights leave every day and it's only an 8 hour flight from Amsterdam.

Look at the stories you have to tell us when (if) you get back

Franz Von Peppercorn II

archer22 wrote: »

There is only one solution lads...head off to Beijing and tell them to their faces what you think of them.

Flights leave every day and it's only an 8 hour flight from Amsterdam.

Look at the stories you have to tell us when (if) you get back

I’ve lived in China and had perfectly honest conversations with people who were openly critical of the regime.

ILoveYourVibes

archer22 wrote: »

There is only one solution lads...head off to Beijing and tell them to their faces what you think of them.

Flights leave every day and it's only an 8 hour flight from Amsterdam.

Look at the stories you have to tell us when (if) you get back

Only the dragon can change it.

The Chinese don't tend to revolt but when they do it tends to be sudden and ALL of them at once.

Their strength is their sheer population. Its why the govt waits until its calmer and picks on minorities. They are easy targets.

archer22

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Only the dragon can change it.

The Chinese don't tend to revolt but when they do it tends to be sudden and ALL of them at once.

Their strength is their sheer population. Its why the govt waits until its calmer and picks on minorities. They are easy targets.

Don't be so sure you know them..I have met many who were supportive of Mao, including a former girlfriend.

Problem with many westerners is they believe western propaganda sh1t and think that most Chinese feel the same.

lipso tokko

archer22 wrote: »

There is only one solution lads...head off to Beijing and tell them to their faces what you think of them.

a great bunch of lads

kowloon

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

I’ve lived in China and had perfectly honest conversations with people who were openly critical of the regime.

Story time! You can't leave it at that.