I need feminism because... Thread 2

Neyite

The verdict in the trial yesterday made me want to post on this thread but the old thread was closed - I think it got derailed somewhat, so maybe a new one might stay on track.


I need feminism because a young girl lost her life because two boys thought it was justifiable to lure her away to rape, beat and murder her because she was a 'weirdo' who 'dressed sluttily'.



I need feminism because people still think it's acceptable to call girls sluts and whores.

sullivlo

mod note

Be mindful of where you’re posting. Any thread derailment or Male posters with “not all men” or “what about us” attitudes will be carded.

meeeeh

Feminism is around long enough and it doesn't seem to offer effecive solution to this. Maybe we need to change the conversation because current confrontational approach doesn't work.

mickuhaha

Could at the beginning of this thread could we get some clarification in relation to OP's view of what feminism is and its goal.
I also think the trial is not a male or female issue specifically rather than a degree of a combination of social and moral issues.

Neyite

meeeeh wrote: »

Feminism is around long enough and it doesn't seem to offer effecive solution to this. Maybe we need to change the conversation because current confrontational approach doesn't work.

You are right, it's not working. How can we change the conversation? What will work?



My teen relative recently got dumped by her boyfriend because she spoke to a boy on a bus she's known since she was in primary school. The (ex) boyfriend called her a slut and a whore and dumped her. Then his friends piled in with social media messages calling her the same thing. All these boys thinking it's fine to call a girl this.



How do we change this?

Danzy

meeeeh wrote: »

Feminism is around long enough and it doesn't seem to offer effecive solution to this. Maybe we need to change the conversation because current confrontational approach doesn't work.

Feminism now is different to past feminism.

That change is a large reason that so few modern women describe themselves as feminists.

Understandably so.

meeeeh

Neyite wrote: »

You are right, it's not working. How can we change the conversation? What will work?



My teen relative recently got dumped by her boyfriend because she spoke to a boy on a bus she's known since she was in primary school. The (ex) boyfriend called her a slut and a whore and dumped her. Then his friends piled in with social media messages calling her the same thing. All these boys thinking it's fine to call a girl this.



How do we change this?

How should I know that? I can try to teach my kids not to be nasty to others and monitor what they use online (not allowed at the moment except for whatever on Youtube is under child lock). But I think adversarial nature of social media pushes kids into one or other camp. Also it seems girls her age weren't nice to poor Ana either, this is so much wider as calling someone a slut. The killing and rape at this age is an outlier and to make decisions on basis one isolated case maybe isn't the best but bullying is not isolated (neither gender specific), access to damaging content on internet is common. For me that's where we should look at.

meeeeh

Danzy wrote: »

Feminism now is different to past feminism.

That change is a large reason that so few modern women describe themselves as feminists.

Understandably so.

I describe myself as feminist, I just don't believe it will solve everything.

Caranica

Neyite wrote: »

You are right, it's not working. How can we change the conversation? What will work?

My teen relative recently got dumped by her boyfriend because she spoke to a boy on a bus she's known since she was in primary school. The (ex) boyfriend called her a slut and a whore and dumped her. Then his friends piled in with social media messages calling her the same thing. All these boys thinking it's fine to call a girl this.



How do we change this?

Simple, parenting! Kids need to be taught right and wrong. Do unto others etc

I am 100% non religious but I do think there's a void now as the morals, respect and ethics parts of society that were taught through religion are often missing.

I don't think it's anything to do with feminism. People are people. Feminism wouldn't have saved poor Ana. Those boys having basic human decency would have.

B0jangles

Feminism has been so thoroughly demonized in the last couple of decades that women are actually wary of describing themselves as feminists because they might be mistaken for one of Those Feminists.

You know, the ones in the memes that want to murder all men and change every word containing the syllables 'men' and 'his' to 'wom' and 'her'. I've never met one of Those Feminists in real life, but if you are to believe everything you read online (lol), they apparently make up the majority of modern feminist thought and action. Not the feminists fighting to change social attitudes that a girl who has sex is a slut, Fighting to change the perception that the absence of women in government is not because of deeply ingrained structural issues, it's because women just aren't interested in that sort of thing. That the playing field is actually already level and fundamentally the issue is that women just aren't good enough or strong enough to win.

But this is nothing new, most generations of anti-feminists have grudgingly agreed that feminism was needed then, back in the old days when there really were injustices, but never now.

Just think about the phrase 'you do X like a girl'

That's an insult, it's always always used as an insult.

Until that changes I'm going to say that I still need feminism. Because my gender is not an insult.

Graces7

Just seen this news item and thought of this thread#

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/let-the-children-choose-wicklow-primary-school-to-introduce-gender-neutral-uniform-policy-931830.html

Chaos re gender? How can feminism survive?

sullivlo

Graces7 wrote: »

Just seen this news item and thought of this thread#

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/let-the-children-choose-wicklow-primary-school-to-introduce-gender-neutral-uniform-policy-931830.html

Chaos re gender? How can feminism survive?

I don't see the link between whether a child is allowed to wear trousers/a skirt and the survival of feminism. Feminism, to me, is about equality.

I'm a teacher and would have no issues if my female students requested to wear uniform trousers instead of the uniform skirt.

Neyite

Graces7 wrote: »

Just seen this news item and thought of this thread#

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/let-the-children-choose-wicklow-primary-school-to-introduce-gender-neutral-uniform-policy-931830.html

Chaos re gender? How can feminism survive?

Feminism is often steered towards removing gender stereotypes for each sex rather than reinforcing boys-wear-this and girls-wear-that ideas. Well my version is anyway.

School skirts can be very similar to kilts which men and boys were in Scotland without batting an eyelid so I'm not bothered about this.

What I find more problematic in schools is like the use of words in joking, slagging or insulting others that subliminally reinforce that women and girls are lesser. "you cry like a girl". "Stop being such a pussy" "you run like a girl" "mammys boy". Like the way to make an insult or barb hit home is to imply that the boy has feminine traits.

A few days ago my son asked me if I was sad I wasn't a boy, because being a girl is apparently to be pitied. I told him no, being a girl is awesome as is being a boy. So I know I've got to start steering him towards thinking differently on that.

Graces7

sullivlo wrote: »

I don't see the link between whether a child is allowed to wear trousers/a skirt and the survival of feminism. Feminism, to me, is about equality.

I'm a teacher and would have no issues if my female students requested to wear uniform trousers instead of the uniform skirt.

and vice versa? which is what is planned ie boys wearing skirts.

A new slant on equality?

Graces7

NB do you mean feminism or femininity?

and can the terms be clearly defines as I am seeing different interpretations here,

sullivlo

Graces7 wrote: »

and vice versa? which is what is planned ie boys wearing skirts.

A new slant on equality?

I’m in an all girls school so I can’t comment on males wearing skirts. But if I did teach males I would allow them to wear a skirt, if they wanted.

sullivlo

Graces7 wrote: »

NB do you mean feminism or femininity?

and can the terms be clearly defines as I am seeing different interpretations here,

From Wikipedia:

Feminism is a range of social movements, political movements, and ideologies that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve the political, economic, personal, and social equality of the sexes

Femininity (also called girlishness or womanliness) is a set of attributes, behaviors, and roles generally associated with girls and women.

This thread surrounds feminism.

Neyite

sullivlo wrote: »

I’m in an all girls school so I can’t comment on males wearing skirts. But if I did teach males I would allow them to wear a skirt, if they wanted.

A good Irish winter and they'd soon see why girls for the last 20 years have been fighting for trousers as part of their uniform. :P


We had a skirt, never allowed trousers. So I wore leggings under two pairs of woolly tights and was still freezing!

rainbow kirby

I've heard of girls in Limerick that have the floor length skirts wearing pyjama bottoms under them during the winter! :pac:

I don't believe in school uniforms anyway - but if they have to exist, they should not be strongly gendered in the way that most Irish ones are.

pwurple

I still remember the second day of school for my youngest... she was so delighted to wear her uniform on day one.
Day two rocked around. The absolute HORROR that she had to wear the same outfit two days in a row. Hah.


Feminism to me these days, would be a week when I don't get some raised-eyebrow comments from someone about my husband, being a stay at home dad to his own children.

"Oh, you're one of these Modern Women, who wants all roles reversed". No, I'm a contractor. so in today's work climate, we followed the bigger pile of money to pay the mortgage off faster.

"Does he do your laundry... snigger" Yes, and always has done for the last 20+ years, even when we both worked, and we didn't have kids. I do the gardening.


"What kind of adults will your children grow into without a mother at home". Good gravy, this one. I hope, the kind of adult who is independent and knows bull when they see it.

mickuhaha

https://metro.co.uk/2019/02/28/teacher-raped-boy-13-another-student-stood-guard-classroom-door-8782101/

This thread started off with a link about a trial and here is another.

Are these actions actually sex based or are these the rare one off craziest people. You are ment to keep the bad ideas in your imagination.

Neyite

mickuhaha wrote: »

https://metro.co.uk/2019/02/28/teacher-raped-boy-13-another-student-stood-guard-classroom-door-8782101/

This thread started off with a link about a trial and here is another.

Are these actions actually sex based or are these the rare one off craziest people. You are ment to keep the bad ideas in your imagination.

That case is clear cut child abuse. The language of the piece is disgusting. Words like "affair". Would they call a male 27yo teacher raping a 13yo girl an affair?? It's child abuse and sexual assault.

Could you elaborate on how you think it relates to the thread topic?

coffee_cake

pwurple wrote: »

"What kind of adults will your children grow into without a mother at home". Good gravy, this one. I hope, the kind of adult who is independent and knows bull when they see it.

ones who don't make stupid comments like that, you'd hope

mickuhaha

Neyite wrote: »

That case is clear cut child abuse. The language of the piece is disgusting. Words like "affair". Would they call a male 27yo teacher raping a 13yo girl an affair?? It's child abuse and sexual assault.

Could you elaborate on how you think it relates to the thread topic?

My point was that these cases are rare one off cases and not an epidemic in society which requires a women's movement to appeal for change. Everyone knows these things are wrong and that is why there illegal in law. I would think that these are not " I need feminism because" points. I would agree that language that uses female pronouns in a way that indicates weakness or is derogatory is an appropriate I need feminism because point.

[Deleted User]

Because of cases like this:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/23/wolf-pack-case-spain-feminism-far-right-vox

In April 2018, the verdict was finally handed down and the court acquitted all five men of rape, finding them guilty of the lesser crime of “sexual abuse”. It came down to the fine print of the law: because the men had not used violence to coerce the woman into the act, the crime could not technically be categorised as sexual assault, which includes rape. The men were sentenced to nine years instead of the 22 to 25 years the prosecution demanded.

A rape victim too afraid to fight in case it endangers their life, or someone frozen with fear and too shocked to struggle can't be a rape victim; only if additional violence or intimidation is used or if the victim tried to fight the attacker does Spanish law consider it rape. It's a slant on 'she didn't try hard enough to avoid it'.

That poor girl.

Thankfully the ensuing protest worked.

B0jangles

Candie wrote: »

Because of cases like this:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/23/wolf-pack-case-spain-feminism-far-right-vox

A rape victim too afraid to fight in case it endangers their life, or someone frozen with fear and too shocked to struggle can't be a rape victim; only if additional violence or intimidation is used or if the victim tried to fight the attacker does Spanish law consider it rape. It's a slant on 'she didn't try hard enough to avoid it'.

That poor girl.

Thankfully the ensuing protest worked.

Jesus, I knew it was horrible but the details are so incredibly awful, and that there would be anti-feminist backlash to something like THAT is just mindboggling.


The women of Spain are not 'embracing their inner femininity' as some people think they should, they are not embracing their meekness or their gentleness, they are not willing to sit quietly and wait for things to magically get better by themselves.

The are getting out into the streets, getting loud, getting angry, getting HEARD.

That's how you get things changed.

[Deleted User]

And the repulsive reactions of the mentioned online communities to the verdict. It's all so disappointingly familiar.

mariaalice

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gray_(philosopher)

I like reading this philosopher he is a tad gloomy, but one of his big ideas is that things can and do reverse just because a right has been enshrined in law that does not meant in the future there won't be pressure to reverse it.

sullivlo

I tweeted earlier and quoted a tweet where someone was selling their phone and it escalated into a threat of rape.

I tweeted saying "This is why people still bang the feminism drum".

Someone replied "I doubt it's legit".

A woman tweets to say that she was threatened with rape, and a man says she must be lying.

This is why we need feminism.