Immigration Controls

Stop moaning ffs

SNIP. Do not question mod warnings on thread please.

Stephen15

It was actually a left wing viewpoint to be anti immigration until the left were hijacked by a bunch of liberal college students and champagne socialists. Think about it many immigrants from poorer countries are willing to accept low paid jobs with bad terms and conditions in order to send money home to their families or save to go home.

How can Irish workers with rent/mortgage to pay and a family to feed compete with immigrant workers who are sharing a house and splitting the rent with other immigrants and spending very little in order to save or send money back home where low wages here are worth a lot more back home. This means that the Irish are better off on the dole than working.

Many immigrants also don't have much of a family or social life here so they are willing as much hours as they possibly can. This makes immigrants far more attractive to employers than native Irish so mass immigration actually suits big business. What's even more disgraceful is unions are willing to stand idly by and let this race to the bottom happen and in fact actually encourage it to add insult to injury by promoting diversity in the workplace and other nonsense like that. Instead of standing up for their Irish long serving members.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Stephen15 wrote: »

It was actually a left wing viewpoint to be anti immigration until the left were hijacked by a bunch of liberal college students and champagne socialists. Think about it many immigrants from poorer countries are willing to accept low paid jobs with bad terms and conditions in order to send money home to their families or save to go home.

How can Irish workers with rent/mortgage to pay and a family to feed compete with immigrant workers who are sharing a house and splitting the rent with other immigrants and spending very little in order to save or send money back home where low wages here are worth a lot more back home. This means that the Irish are better off on the dole than working.

Many immigrants also don't have much of a family or social life here so they are willing as much hours as they possibly can. This makes immigrants far more attractive to employers than native Irish so mass immigration actually suits big business. What's even more disgraceful is unions are willing to stand idly by and let this race to the bottom happen and in fact actually encourage it to add insult to injury by promoting diversity in the workplace and other nonsense like that. Instead of standing up for their Irish long serving members.

Facts? Figures? A plethora of examples to back up all of this?

Stephen15

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Facts? Figures? A plethora of examples to back up all of this?

Ask yourself the question how can an immigrant with a minimum wage job afford to pay the rent in Dublin when people with jobs on higher wages have to commute from the likes of Gorey, Portlaoise, Drogheda etc.

Remember this story? My guess is a large number of the tenants were immigrants.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/exclusive-undercover-probe-exposes-property-firm-overcrowding-houses-with-up-to-70-people-house-could-have-burned-to-the-ground-35291528.html

j8wk2feszrnpao

Stephen15 wrote: »

Ask yourself the question ....

I asked you questions, but you gave an example of exploitation of immigrants. So the issue is an Irish Landlord, an Irish Website, and Dublin City Council all failing in their duty to ensure exploitation of individuals (no matter their nationality) doesn’t occur. Seen a similar issue highlighted by Channel 4 sometime back.

So don’t really get what this has to do with your issue? Did Irish people miss out on being exploited? Is that it? Were these low paid workers, who could only afford to live in such conditions, taking the opportunity away from a Irish person?
Surely the piece highlights our own issues with ensuring current standards/laws are met?

BobbyBobberson

People always tend me to be somewhere in the middle when it comes to immigration. No one wants mass immigration and no is stupid enough to think to close the borders completely, problem being is that the argument usually gets hijacked by either side of the political spectrum.

In terms of population density, I think Ireland is about the 12th least densely populated with countries higher on the list including nordic countries which has some unforgiving landscape. It is all about perspective when it comes to density. The UK is three times more dp then us and many think that it has too much of an urban existence however I read recently that more land is exposed when the tide recedes than is built on in the UK.

We need immigration, barring some excessive pro natalist policy, to sustain jobs and look after the elderly in the future. You can replace some workers to a certain extent with robots but robots do not pay tax (though B Gates did moot this idea recently). Fact remains is that we need immigrants to fill the jobs others do not want to do. Hospitality is full of hard working migrants who will be hard to replace. The EU has allowed us to have access to workers to fill jobs but just as easily they can get up and leave. Look at fruit farms in the UK, they have not even changed their immigration policy and are struggling to get produce picked. Migration causes demand and thus more jobs. We ourselves are a country with strong emigrant history, in fact today only New Zealand has a larger live emigrant number in terms of % of total population.

On the other side, I can see the reasoning on people in relation to people causing a serious offence here.If you commit a serious crime and are imprisoned, should you be a burden on the state? Then the counter argument is, do we take all jailed irish abroad? Rent and housing increases are impacted by immigration but not to the extent to be fully responsible for the increases. Govt policy could do a lot more to ease the burden, I see Berlin have announced a five year freeze on rents. Perhaps if this govt actually built more homes then we would not have such an issue.

As I said, it lies somewhere in the middle and I am sure that in todays reasoned and balanced political climate that we can all sort this out :pac::pac:

Stephen15

munstermagic11 wrote: »

I asked you questions, but you gave an example of exploitation of immigrants. So the issue is an Irish Landlord, an Irish Website, and Dublin City Council all failing in their duty to ensure exploitation of individuals (no matter their nationality) doesn’t occur. Seen a similar issue highlighted by Channel 4 sometime back.

So don’t really get what this has to do with your issue? Did Irish people miss out on being exploited? Is that it? Were these low paid workers, who could only afford to live in such conditions, taking the opportunity away from a Irish person?
Surely the piece highlights our own issues with ensuring current standards/laws are met?

You seem like your not understanding my point. Irish people won't put up with that kind of crap and have no need to. Immigrants from the third world are willing to put with these kind of conditions as they are used to it in their own countries.

This leads to the fact that Irish people can't compete with immigrants when it comes to jobs and housing in their own country as immigrants are willing to put up with sh1tty conditions but Irish want a decent standard of living for themselves and their families and means that Irish people are missing out on improving their lot.

Many Irish won't work low wage jobs as they realise they are better off on the dole while immigrants will as they are probably not going to be here for a very long and many don't have family here to support and are sending money home or saving to go home. The money are making here even though it is low by our standards is worth quite a lot in the third world.

Immigration suits business think about it if you owned a business would you rather employ an immigrant who is fully flexible for low wages or an Irish person who will only work 8 hours a day 5 days a week for a decent wage.

mandrake04

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

What if he had no previous criminal record?

Australia has extensive checks but it doesn't stop criminals getting in.

Australia only checks criminal record for Permanent immigration as you need Police Certificates of all countries you previously lived more than 6 months, if you are on Holiday or a temporary work visa it’s a self declaration definitely not extensive.

Also only a custodial sentence of over 12 months is the threshold for rejection, so a former criminal that only served 11 months in custody wouldn’t be straight forward but wouldn’t necessarily be a outright ban.

mandrake04

theguzman wrote: »

As things currently stand Irish people. culture and way of life will be completely lost and destroyed within two generations and the Ireland of my childhood will be completely destroyed by the time I enter my eighties if I live long enough.

That’s just the way of the world, things change when I was a kid in 80s and early 90s we spent our time playing Gaelic football and summers at Gaeltacht. Kids these days just want to play PlayStation or spend time on their smart phone.

mandrake04

theguzman wrote: »

Irish people are ethnically different to the Anglo Saxon English. We are not British, our forefathers put their lives on the line to ensure of this.

I agree and disagree, maybe not British but even within the 26 counties a fair population would have Saxon blood running through their veins especially in the Pale.

AngryHippie

sonic85 wrote: »

Can't believe someone in this thread has insinuated another poster should commit suicide if they aren't happy with their contribution to the planet and not one person has called them out on it. What the actual fcuk. Unbelievable.

That is not exactly what was written. Somebody suggested they might consider that as an option.

Agreed it is poor form that it wasn't called out though.
The mere fact that the poster is engaging in intellectual discourse over the problem would suggest that they wouldn't benefit society by removing themselves from it (They aren't the problem). [to be cold about it]

That said, I agree with the opinion that there are too many people on our planet and that it poses an existential crisis. Education and birth control need to be high priorities for every administration in order to mitigate this looming population crisis and avoid ecological collapse, relying on the traditional 4 horsemen will result in an uncontrollable adjustment of the apocalyptic variety.

I think the crux of the matter is though, the "economic growth" mantra that keeps getting trotted out as some sort of governmental KPI, this only exists with a growing population....there is a fundamental mis-match between what we demand of our politicians and economy and what we need as a society and species.

Sustainability and growth as we know them do not co-exist on a continuous timeline.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Stephen15 wrote: »

You seem like your not understanding my point.

No, I understand you perfectly. Still waiting for those facts/figures thought.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Immigrants from the third world are willing to put with these kind of conditions as they are used to it in their own countries.

This leads to the fact that Irish people can't compete with immigrants when it comes to jobs and housing in their own country as immigrants are willing to put up with sh1tty conditions but Irish want a decent standard of living for themselves and their families and means that Irish people are missing out on improving their lot.

You are missing the point. The issue from your link is Irish businesses exploiting people, and the Irish state not protecting them.
By the way, you do know that just because they are immigrants, they aren't all here for low paid jobs and sh1tty conditions? Been to any Irish hospital lately?

j8wk2feszrnpao

AngryHippie wrote: »

That is not exactly what was written. Somebody suggested they might consider that as an option.

Just to be clear, I didn't want that person to consider it an option (I did say "I hope not").

In a topic about immigration (not the World's population), the poster stated there was no benefits to an increased population in Ireland (when there is), that our economic system it is mostly VERY bad (without backing it up), that London has nothing to offer (when it does), that they are happy with Ireland's population (which in on the increase, even without immigration) but not the rest of the World, and believes that people (I'm assuming they include themselves) are not a positive thing for the planet. I don't see that as intellectual discourse (I'd imagine others may disagree).

Cal4567

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Facts? Figures? A plethora of examples to back up all of this?

They have a point. If you just go back to the Left pre 1980s, it was a recognised concern. In fact in the UK, part of the Left who were more Brexit inclined still use this as an example, that the influx of low skilled immigrants does no favours to the existing low skilled indidgenous workforce. That idea does not sit comfortably with the middle class SJWs who now seem to control left wing politics.

Yurt2

Cal4567 wrote: »

They have a point. If you just go back to the Left pre 1980s, it was a recognised concern. In fact in the UK, part of the Left who were more Brexit inclined still use this as an example, that the influx of low skilled immigrants does no favours to the existing low skilled indidgenous workforce. That idea does not sit comfortably with the middle class SJWs who now seem to control left wing politics.

Immigration of the sort we see in Ireland or the UK does indeed increase headline GDP by a percentage point or so a year - on that most economists agree. What they also agree on is that the gains get captured by the wealthy via rents, via cheaper labour, more 'flexible' and casualised labour. Good for business, but not necessarily good for society as a whole. Particularly if you're from lower income strata, you're in increased competition for housing, access to schools, healthcare and above all, the value of your labour has been undercut.

We're in a weird situation now where the contemporary left gives a kind of backhanded endorsement to a type of global capitalism that seeks to undermine the economic stability of the working classes.

I posted in another thread, when you see the likes of IBEC cheerleading for more non-EU immigration, you scratch your head and wonder if it's the interests of the Philipino cleaner / Brazilian food-service worker they're thinking of or their members' profit margins.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Cal4567 wrote: »

They have a point. If you just go back to the Left pre 1980s, it was a recognised concern. In fact in the UK, part of the Left who were more Brexit inclined still use this as an example, that the influx of low skilled immigrants does no favours to the existing low skilled indidgenous workforce. That idea does not sit comfortably with the middle class SJWs who now seem to control left wing politics.

I'm only asking they back up their point with actual facts and figures.
Broadly stating that immigrants are only in low skilled jobs, living in horrible conditions, is a rant rather than a valid contribution.
Preventing the exploitation of workers is something we can already control, but don't.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: If you make a claim, it's not unreasonable for other posters to ask for evidence. Soapboxing is not allowed in this forum.

Case in point:

Stephen15 wrote: »

Ask yourself the question how can an immigrant with a minimum wage job afford to pay the rent in Dublin when people with jobs on higher wages have to commute from the likes of Gorey, Portlaoise, Drogheda etc.

Remember this story? My guess is a large number of the tenants were immigrants.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/exclusive-undercover-probe-exposes-property-firm-overcrowding-houses-with-up-to-70-people-house-could-have-burned-to-the-ground-35291528.html

A Shropshire Lad

Yurt! wrote: »

I posted in another thread, when you see the likes of IBEC cheerleading for more non-EU immigration, you scratch your head and wonder if it's the interests of the Philipino cleaner / Brazilian food-service worker they're thinking of or their members' profit margins.

I think business will always think about the profit margin. Even the high skilled IT workers arriving from India are being exploited to some degree in that they tend to be on less money than say an Irish person with the same skillset. But the offer of a working visa and a chance to gain experience in a western country is of great value to them also.

Stephen15

munstermagic11 wrote: »

You are missing the point. The issue from your link is Irish businesses exploiting people, and the Irish state not protecting them.
By the way, you do know that just because they are immigrants, they aren't all here for low paid jobs and sh1tty conditions? Been to any Irish hospital lately?

And they wouldn't be exploited by Irish businesses if they werent allowed into the country in the first place. Problem solved. I'm not denying they are exploited all I am saying is that Irish people are suffering as a result of their willingness to be exploited. It took an Irish person to highlight immigrants being exploited going to show that a certain amount of immigrants are willing to put up with exploitation.

I know perfectly well not all immigrants are here for low paid jobs. That's why I want an Australian style points system for people wishing to move here which would identify skills shortages and allow immigrants live and work here only if they have the nessecary skills.

It is happening in hospitals look a the situation with nurses. Irish nurses won't put with the awful pay and conditions emigrate to the likes of Dubai, Australia, the UK and Canada but Asian nurses will. If for example Asian nurses weren't hired the HSE and the govt. know that they would have pay Irish nurses more and improve their conditions.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Stephen15 wrote: »

And they wouldn't be exploited by Irish businesses if they werent allowed into the country in the first place. Problem solved.

Yeah, it's their fault.
If immigrant nurses/doctors weren't hired, we'd be in huge trouble. But again, it's their fault.
Discussion over.

Stephen15

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Yeah, it's their fault.
If immigrant nurses/doctors weren't hired, we'd be in huge trouble. But again, it's their fault.
Discussion over.

As I said Australian style points system. If there's a shortage of doctors then we can allow only doctors in but not unskilled workers which are the vast majority of immigrants coming in. It's not their fault it's our fault for letting a race to the bottom happen through immigration.

It's our fault for making wages so low that the medical professions that we train here in Ireland through your taxpayers money we pay so badly feel they have to leave the country. Also don't you think that healthcare workers from outside of Ireland are leaving their own countries facing a shortage of healthcare workers.

mandrake04

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Yeah, it's their fault.
If immigrant nurses/doctors weren't hired, we'd be in huge trouble. But again, it's their fault.
Discussion over.

Well you be in even worse shambles than currently.

I work in health industry in Australia myself, load of Irish doctors over here now one was telling me he moved about 4-5 years ago and when he left Dublin he was replaced by an Indian doctor who has ironically now moved to the same Australian hospital as himself.

is_that_so

Stephen15 wrote: »

As I said Australian style points system. If there's a shortage of doctors then we can allow only doctors in but not unskilled workers which are the vast majority of immigrants coming in. It's not their fault it's our fault for letting a race to the bottom happen through immigration.

It's our fault for making wages so low that the medical professions that we train here in Ireland through your taxpayers money we pay so badly feel they have to leave the country. Also don't you think that healthcare workers from outside of Ireland are leaving their own countries facing a shortage of healthcare workers.

There is a global shortage of healthcare professionals and some countries have better inducements. The likes of the UK offer more and closeness to home, Australia and Canada a new lifestyle and the money is in the Middle East.

And there is a check on what comes in via the medical fields through international language exams, IELTS in particular and an occupational one called OET.

mandrake04

Stephen15 wrote: »

As I said Australian style points system. If there's a shortage of doctors then we can allow only doctors in but not unskilled workers which are the vast majority of immigrants coming in. It's not their fault it's our fault for letting a race to the bottom happen through immigration.

It's our fault for making wages so low that the medical professions that we train here in Ireland through your taxpayers money we pay so badly feel they have to leave the country. Also don't you think that healthcare workers from outside of Ireland are leaving their own countries facing a shortage of healthcare workers.

To be fair it’s not just the wages, it’s the conditions and the technology. The smart Doctors these days don’t want to be working back in the 90s or early ‘000s they want to work in 2019. Lot of Irish doctors working for example in Australia will be working on cutting edge techniques, they return home in 10 years and pick up Consultants-Director jobs they still be 10-15 years ahead of their old colleagues.

enricoh

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Yeah, it's their fault.
If immigrant nurses/doctors weren't hired, we'd be in huge trouble. But again, it's their fault.
Discussion over.

Yeah, they're all doctors n engineers coming over! 21% presenting as homeless are non eu, plus 12% eu. So 1in 3 on homeless list is non irish. What percentage is non irish in last census 15%ish iirc.
So foreigners are twice as likely to be a drain on the state as paddies. Yay, lets take another 500,000 in so!
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.rte.ie/amp/1039821/&ved=2ahUKEwjfyJD6wfXiAhXqQEEAHbuTBZ4QFjAAegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw3DS8gy2sdVScNO_BnqClaQ&ampcf=1

Third of families presenting as homeless are foreign nationals whose rights are ‘unclear’

j8wk2feszrnpao

enricoh wrote: »

Yeah, they're all doctors n engineers coming over! 21% presenting as homeless are non eu, plus 12% eu. So 1in 3 on homeless list is non irish. What percentage is non irish in last census 15%ish iirc.
So foreigners are twice as likely to be a drain on the state as paddies. Yay, lets take another 500,000 in so!
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.rte.ie/amp/1039821/&ved=2ahUKEwjfyJD6wfXiAhXqQEEAHbuTBZ4QFjAAegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw3DS8gy2sdVScNO_BnqClaQ&ampcf=1

Third of families presenting as homeless are foreign nationals whose rights are ‘unclear’

Never said any of that, but hey, it's make stuff up time.

ancapailldorcha

enricoh wrote: »

Yeah, they're all doctors n engineers coming over!

No more sarcasm please.

Jimmy Garlic

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Well, Irish people are generally free to go to most countries to work so we can't have it both ways...

Try going to Australia, Canada, New Zealand , America etc without a visa and see how you get on.

Stephen15

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Never said any of that, but hey, it's make stuff up time.

A shortage of skilled labour is often used by proponents of open borders making out that all immigrants coming in are highly skilled which I cannot accept as being the truth. For example I highly doubt all the immigrants in DP are doctors, engineers, scientists, lawyers etc. I also highly doubt that Ahmed working the night shift at the local Circle K garage has a degree either.

mandrake04

Stephen15 wrote: »

I also highly doubt that Ahmed working the night shift at the local Circle K garage has a degree either.

To be fair Ahmed could be an international student.