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Immigration Controls

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  • 15-06-2019 6:37pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭


    Do you think Ireland should do more to limit the numbers of people coming here to work seeing as we have a chronic housing shortage, not to mention schools and a health service under severe strain ?
    Perhaps EU immigration is beyond out control but outside of that there are huge numbers still arriving. Not trying to sound like an Irish version of ukip here but just interested what others think about it...


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    Do you think Ireland should do more to limit the numbers of people coming here to work seeing as we have a chronic housing shortage, not to mention schools and a health service under severe strain ?
    Perhaps EU immigration is beyond out control but outside of that there are huge numbers still arriving. Not trying to sound like an Irish version of ukip here but just interested what others think about it...
    Any stats that show it's huge numbers?
    If they are coming here to work, I don't see why we'd limit it; plus from an EU prospective, they have a right to work here.
    The housing issue is one for the Government to resolve, by building housing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 818 ✭✭✭Hal3000


    With our rent so high and the astronomical cost of living why would anyone even bother coming here?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    History repeating itself??

    Lots of people coming to live and work here, new houses needed to accommodate them, more labour imported to build houses, rinse and repeat, same as before.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    History repeating itself??

    Lots of people coming to live and work here, new houses needed to accommodate them, more labour imported to build houses, rinse and repeat, same as before.
    Do you mean prior to 2007?
    Credit controls are totally different now, so not a case of history repeating itself this time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    Do you mean prior to 2007?
    Credit controls are totally different now, so not a case of history repeating itself this time.

    Seeing as this government has blown the budget big time on the children's hospital, the broadband scheme etc, as previous governments have done on separate projects, yeah, I do foresee history repeating itself.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    Any stats that show it's huge numbers?
    If they are coming here to work, I don't see why we'd limit it; plus from an EU prospective, they have a right to work here.
    The housing issue is one for the Government to resolve, by building housing.

    Is over 12% of the total population being foreign not a huge number?

    When does it become huge. 25%? 50%?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    Seeing as this government has blown the budget big time on the children's hospital, the broadband scheme etc, as previous governments have done on separate projects, yeah, I do foresee history repeating itself.
    You were speaking about housing, so I asked what period you were referring to.
    Not sure what the children’s hospital or broadband schemes have to do with the topic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    Is over 12% of the total population being foreign not a huge number?

    When does it become huge. 25%? 50%?
    I don’t consider it huge. 88% is huge.


  • Registered Users Posts: 42 paddyuibh


    I do belive we need stricter Immigration laws.

    I've no problem of citizens who come here and contribute to society and are of good character but there must be a restriction to numbers in place.

    Now the PC brigade will only say this is racist. �� but there's no denying it that there is more and more criminal acts being done in this Country by foreign nationals and thats not good. Mass Immigration ripples down on everything. Housing crisis, HSE, Jobs, Homelessness, crime etc.

    A quick search on this will bring you many articles and statistics so work away.

    Yes, we have enough of our own home grown criminals in this Country. Do we really need to be importing more? Wait till the crime is done an then give out about it �� Irelands changing.

    I wouldn't say its all being good, the real figure is closer to 18% non Irish in this Country when you take in Citizenship (which is a scam)into account. Not 10% or 12%, OVER 80% of asylum seekers cases are refused and there is no proper Government agencies that carry out deportations orders.

    Now, look to other Countries closer to home and see whats going on there. Ireland isn't immune to it, and don't be naive thinking that we are.

    I think at some stage more and more people will see the true outcome at the end of the day and eventually there will have to be something done or a serious debate about it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    Well, Irish people are generally free to go to most countries to work so we can't have it both ways...


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    paddyuibh wrote: »
    Now the PC brigade will only say this is racist. �� but there's no denying it that there is more and more criminal acts being done in this Country by foreign nationals and thats not good. Mass Immigration ripples down on everything. Housing crisis, HSE, Jobs, Homelessness, crime etc.
    Any stats to show these criminal acts?
    If we want to start exporting them, then maybe we also have to start taking back our own criminals from abroad (such as illegals in the US). Would we end up with a nett increase?


  • Registered Users Posts: 625 ✭✭✭Cal4567


    When you see some parts of the UK and how they've changed in recent decades due to immigration - it was a big driver for Brexit in the UK, are we turning into that? No, don't think so, not yet. Not by a long way.

    Reckon the number of immigrants will increase unless our economy nosedives. Why should we be different then to any other european country? I cannot see any government here though leading a mature debate. It will be sold as a good thing and how we are all benefitting, how other cultures enrich our society.

    Any increase in housing and health need, and education demand will be blamed on population increases. The Left will jump on people's sensibilities over racism. Experts show that over time immigration has worked globally. What has not worked is a perceived view within indigenous communities that the immigration has been too quick. That's another view coming from the UK since the EU opened up since 2004.

    Interestingly, with immigration, by the second genereration, assimilation has largely taken place, and certainly with the third. The second generation feels the 'new' country is their real home. Go take a look at Indians in England, supporting the English cricket team instead of India.

    To be honest, we do have a lot of room in this sparsely populated country. We also have the jobs, at the moment. Do we have the built infrastructure? No. We don't. Not yet.

    We are good though at keeping our Irish culture positive and alive. More so than the UK has done. There, they seem fully immersed in an anglo American culture. We have a bit of that, but not as much.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,070 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    Seeing as this government has blown the budget big time on the children's hospital, the broadband scheme etc, as previous governments have done on separate projects, yeah, I do foresee history repeating itself.

    Children's Hospital and broadband are infrastructure projects.
    Just like the motorway network or the Luas built in the last 20 years is an infrastructure project.

    These are very different than giving tax breaks for hotels in the middle of nowhere or 200 unit housing estates in small Roscommon villages.

    Anyway that's off topic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,070 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    Is over 12% of the total population being foreign not a huge number?

    When does it become huge. 25%? 50%?

    Of that 12% how many are from other EU countries ?

    We cannot limit the number of EU nationals that decide to come here, it's part of being in the EU.


  • Registered Users Posts: 661 ✭✭✭work


    Cal4567 wrote: »

    To be honest, we do have a lot of room in this sparsely populated country. We also have the jobs, at the moment.

    I personally do not find Ireland Sparsely populated. What possible advantage is there to more people? We only achieve destruction of the country....plants wildlife seas etc. We are under some dumb illusion increasing the population is a good thing however other than some man made economic system it is mostly VERY bad. If you have seen populated areas like the UK they have NOTHING to offer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 625 ✭✭✭Cal4567


    work wrote: »
    I personally do not find Ireland Sparsely populated. What possible advantage is there to more people? We only achieve destruction of the country....plants wildlife seas etc. We are under some dumb illusion increasing the population is a good thing however other than some man made economic system it is mostly VERY bad. If you have seen populated areas like the UK they have NOTHING to offer.

    If we are to be so entwined to the EU project, then we have to expect this. We are seen as one of the very attractive northern European located countries, good for business, well educated, English speaking, low crime rate. We tick an awful lot of boxes for both business and immigrants. While we gladly took the EU's money to get us to this improved space, understandably the EU wants a return.

    We haven't really debated the merits or not here of this, the benefits of an Ireland where it is now against being just a cash cow for large business interests. Sparsely ppulated compared to other EU countries.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    work wrote: »
    I personally do not find Ireland Sparsely populated.
    Based on what?
    We don't have low levels of population density such Greenland; but for a country without huge ice-masses/swamps or deserts, we are sparely populated. We're trending towards greater levels of urbanization, but still have ~40% rural (EU average is ~25).
    work wrote: »
    What possible advantage is there to more people?
    More people can mean a greater demand for goods and services, driving an internal economy. You educate those people, and you have a greater workforce, making it attractive for foreign investment, and for innovation.
    work wrote: »
    We are under some dumb illusion increasing the population is a good thing however other than some man made economic system it is mostly VERY bad.
    Can you provide a list of the good v VERY bad, to show this?
    work wrote: »
    If you have seen populated areas like the UK they have NOTHING to offer.
    London is the most populated area of the UK, and it has plenty to offer; as many Irish people who work/live there will testify.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭MrFresh


    Do you think Ireland should do more to limit the numbers of people coming here to work seeing as we have a chronic housing shortage, not to mention schools and a health service under severe strain ?
    Perhaps EU immigration is beyond out control but outside of that there are huge numbers still arriving. Not trying to sound like an Irish version of ukip here but just interested what others think about it...


    I see we are going with no statistics, vague aspirations and unsourced claims in the opening page. What specific immigration changes do you think need to made op? How do you think it will specifically effect the public and private housing, education and medical sectors.

    paddyuibh wrote: »
    I do belive we need stricter Immigration laws.


    Like what?

    paddyuibh wrote: »
    I've no problem of citizens who come here and contribute to society and are of good character but there must be a restriction to numbers in place.


    What number did you have in mind?

    paddyuibh wrote: »
    Now the PC brigade will only say this is racist. �� but there's no denying it that there is more and more criminal acts being done in this Country by foreign nationals and thats not good. Mass Immigration ripples down on everything. Housing crisis, HSE, Jobs, Homelessness, crime etc.


    A quick search on this will bring you many articles and statistics so work away.


    Can you post the crime stats you refer to? You source your own evidence, not make claims and tell people to Google them and prove you wrong.



    paddyuibh wrote: »
    Yes, we have enough of our own home grown criminals in this Country. Do we really need to be importing more? Wait till the crime is done an then give out about it �� Irelands changing.


    We don't import people. We import goods. Are you aware of a government policy of importing people? Isn't that slavery?

    paddyuibh wrote: »
    I wouldn't say its all being good, the real figure is closer to 18% non Irish in this Country when you take in Citizenship (which is a scam)into account. Not 10% or 12%, OVER 80% of asylum seekers cases are refused and there is no proper Government agencies that carry out deportations orders.


    The Gardaí do. There's an immigration section for it. Can you source your 18% figure? Why is citizenship a scam?

    paddyuibh wrote: »
    Now, look to other Countries closer to home and see whats going on there. Ireland isn't immune to it, and don't be naive thinking that we are.

    Yeah, let's look at the UK where fear of immigration, not immigration itself, has resulted in absolute turmoil.


    paddyuibh wrote: »
    I think at some stage more and more people will see the true outcome at the end of the day and eventually there will have to be something done or a serious debate about it.


    Now's your chance. Give a serious response with actual facts and not just your feelings.


  • Registered Users Posts: 661 ✭✭✭work


    Based on what?
    We don't have low levels of population density such Greenland; but for a country without huge ice-masses/swamps or deserts, we are sparely populated. We're trending towards greater levels of urbanization, but still have ~40% rural (EU average is ~25).

    More people can mean a greater demand for goods and services, driving an internal economy. You educate those people, and you have a greater workforce, making it attractive for foreign investment, and for innovation.


    Can you provide a list of the good v VERY bad, to show this?

    London is the most populated area of the UK, and it has plenty to offer; as many Irish people who work/live there will testify.


    In answer to your points:

    Based on what?
    We don't have low levels of population density such Greenland; but for a country without huge ice-masses/swamps or deserts, we are sparely populated. We're trending towards greater levels of urbanization, but still have ~40% rural (EU average is ~25). .
    I am personally happy with or population density. My opinion. I like living a country with lots of countryside and people are large consumers and destructive to the environment.




    More people can mean a greater demand for goods and services, driving an internal economy. You educate those people, and you have a greater workforce, making it attractive for foreign investment, and for innovation.
    Exactly my point I do not believe this is good. Where does this end? Do we follow this until we have an infinite demand for goods and services. This is not possible and destruction of our environment and country will result. Please tell me the correct point we should stop. I think it is well past already.




    Can you provide a list of the good v VERY bad, to show this?

    London is the most populated area of the UK, and it has plenty to offer; as many Irish people who work/live there will testify.


    Your looking at this differently to me. You are not wrong. London has loads to offer in the way of culture, food etc. It is also a sprawling overpopulated polluted mess, at what point will it be big enough. I have lived in London and it is stifling. I do not believe humans should live like that.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    work wrote: »
    In answer to your points:



    I am personally happy with or population density. My opinion. I like living a country with lots of countryside and people are large consumers and destructive to the environment.





    Exactly my point I do not believe this is good. Where does this end? Do we follow this until we have an infinite demand for goods and services. This is not possible and destruction of our environment and country will result. Please tell me the correct point we should stop. I think it is well past already.







    Your looking at this differently to me. You are not wrong. London has loads to offer in the way of culture, food etc. It is also a sprawling overpopulated polluted mess, at what point will it be big enough. I have lived in London and it is stifling. I do not believe humans should live like that.


    Didn't the British version of the CSO recently come out with the stat that white , British born people are now the minority in London.

    That's very sad. Replaced


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    work wrote: »
    I am personally happy with or population density.
    Ok.
    work wrote: »
    I like living a country with lots of countryside
    Then Ireland is the place for you.
    work wrote: »
    people are large consumers and destructive to the environment.
    So you plan to have no kids to reduce that effect? You're not considering ending your own life I hope, to eliminate your own pollution of the environment?
    This is a debate on the number of immigrants; if they are not here, they are somewhere else. It doesn't reduce the total number of people. Yours is perhaps a different debate.
    work wrote: »
    Exactly my point
    No it's not. I'm speaking about how immigrants can have a positive effect on Ireland. We're talking about fairly low levels of immigration, not some theory on a infinite explosion of people. We had 8 million people here at one stage. Granted, from an environmental prospective we do greater damage now, but our own inaction (in terms of environmental control) is a far greater threat than taking action on our immigration levels.
    work wrote: »
    Please tell me the correct point we should stop. I think it is well past already.
    Stop what? Growing as a population? I don't know is my answer, as there's a ton of variables to consider to answer such a question.
    Last time I researched the subject, we have one of the higher rates of population increase, without including immigration. That's good in the long term if you want there to be people/workers to pay for stuff for those who don't/can't work.
    work wrote: »
    Your looking at this differently to me.
    I answered your statement that London has nothing to offer (which you then agreed with by stating that it does).
    I'm looking at this in terms of what the OP asked about immigration.
    work wrote: »
    I have lived in London and it is stifling. I do not believe humans should live like that.
    Well, you are in the minority, cause the majority do live like that and would probably disagree with your assessment. Otherwise, they wouldn't go there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭20silkcut


    work wrote: »
    In answer to your points:



    I am personally happy with or population density. My opinion. I like living a country with lots of countryside and people are large consumers and destructive to the environment.






    Exactly my point I do not believe this is good. Where does this end? Do we follow this until we have an infinite demand for goods and services. This is not possible and destruction of our environment and country will result. Please tell me the correct point we should stop. I think it is well past already.







    Your looking at this differently to me. You are not wrong. London has loads to offer in the way of culture, food etc. It is also a sprawling overpopulated polluted mess, at what point will it be big enough. I have lived in London and it is stifling. I do not believe humans should live like that.


    The world population will eventually top out don’t worry.
    The spread of education lowers the birth rate.
    Just cause your living at this point in time and seeing things from your perspective don’t assume what is now will always be ever expanding in one direction. Long term history proves you wrong. Stop worrying,look forward to the future.
    People are generally a positive thing on planet earth. 100 years of pollution doesn’t change that. We will sort it. No need to be so anti people. More brains more ideas, more chance of solutions to our current issues.


  • Registered Users Posts: 42 paddyuibh


    Well it's clearly a pro EU thread and mass Immigration it seems 🤔

    As for Culture enrichment, to what extent exactly?

    We have a young population who can be trained in if the incentives were there for them. But no, lots emigrate.

    I don't see all this ' diversity enrichment on the scale as most make out.

    What I do see and hear of is an increasing robberies being carried out by "Eastern Gangs" "Gangs of youths of Dark skinned" beating up and robbing people/youths in parts of Dublin and surrounding areas, Isis sympathizers living within our society and other crimes, rise in sexual assults/attempted assults by foreign men or people of "No descriptions" in the media.



    Not all foreign nationals are bad, ofcourse not. But we have people in our society thinking oh well Irish commit offences here ' I don't see the problem why foreigners shouldn't either ' 🙄.

    The Irish went majority to the US, UK, Canada, and Oz.

    70,000 thousand of us didn't goto Africa, 80,000 to Asia, 120,000+ To Eastern Europe. If we want to return the favour then allow in the same number from the Countries we've went to. Not have a free for all in such numbers.

    Where the Irish went they made a mostly very positive impact for themselves and is probably why where loved so much around the world for our contributions we've made.

    Im just not seeing a growing amount of that here with our free for all open boarders here.

    What I do hear of is an increasing amount of indigenous Irish folks getting fed up with our Government who what it does seem for alot of people is that if your a Immigrant, you can come here and regardless unlikely end up on the streets homeless or without a roof over your heads, unlikely get deported if you cause a criminal offense etc.

    AGAIN, a search of the relevent subjects is only a quick search away on the Internet. I havent time to please the "lefties" who like to try steer away from the matter.


    From plenty of points I've heard and seen videos etc. Immigration is good if it's maintained (but it's increasingly not being) in Ireland, if we don't restrict numbers, do the relevant background checks, start actually deporting those who's asylum have being refused, those who cause criminal offences be deported than rather being housed in the prison system at a cost of near €80,000 per year to tax payers.

    If we don't see action, things unfortunately won't improve. And if you think the world works that way and everyone who comes here just happens to be good law bide citizens and don't cause offences etc then we will only go the same path further more like other Countries.


  • Registered Users Posts: 661 ✭✭✭work


    Based on what?
    We don't have low levels of population density such Greenland; but for a country without huge ice-masses/swamps or deserts, we are sparely populated. We're trending towards greater levels of urbanization, but still have ~40% rural (EU average is ~25).

    More people can mean a greater demand for goods and services, driving an internal economy. You educate those people, and you have a greater workforce, making it attractive for foreign investment, and for innovation.


    Can you provide a list of the good v VERY bad, to show this?

    London is the most populated area of the UK, and it has plenty to offer; as many Irish people who work/live there will testify.
    20silkcut wrote: »
    The world population will eventually top out don’t worry.
    The spread of education lowers the birth rate.
    Just cause your living at this point in time and seeing things from your perspective don’t assume what is now will always be ever expanding in one direction. Long term history proves you wrong. Stop worrying,look forward to the future.
    People are generally a positive thing on planet earth. 100 years of pollution doesn’t change that. We will sort it. No need to be so anti people. More brains more ideas, more chance of solutions to our current issues.


    Absolutely disagree. By the time people are all educated enough to lower the birth rate it will be too late (it already is!). Look forward to the future and expand is your idea! So lets expand until war, drought, infection, and general mass misery reestablishes the balance and destroy all biodiversity that may never return. No thanks I think better to be a bit smarter now. Personally I do not think people are a positive thing for the planet, how are they? Name a single creature other than us that would agree if they could make that choice. Yes more brains (using what we have), more ideas, more chance of solutions...not blind expansion!


  • Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭A Shropshire Lad


    MrFresh wrote: »
    I see we are going with no statistics, vague aspirations and unsourced claims in the opening page. What specific immigration changes do you think need to made op? How do you think it will specifically effect the public and private housing, education and medical sectors.
    .

    How will it specifically effect the housing sector if there arent enough houses and more people seeking then, eh....... do I have to spell it out ?
    Maybe try finding somewhere to rent in Dublin or the commuter towns and see if the problem seems vague


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭20silkcut


    work wrote: »
    Absolutely disagree. By the time people are all educated enough to lower the birth rate it will be too late (it already is!). Look forward to the future and expand is your idea! So lets expand until war, drought, infection, and general mass misery reestablishes the balance and destroy all biodiversity that may never return. No thanks I think better to be a bit smarter now. Personally I do not think people are a positive thing for the planet, how are they? Name a single creature other than us that would agree if they could make that choice. Yes more brains (using what we have), more ideas, more chance of solutions...not blind expansion!


    There is no guarantee that humanity will always expand. It is expanding now but certain sections of humanity are quickly decreasing in expansion and in fact contracting quite fast.
    When women are better educated in third world countries just watch those birth rates plummet.
    Just cause that looks far off now doesn’t mean it won’t happen. As I said don’t fall into the trap of just seeing things from your perspective and time period.
    At least the finest minds on this planet recognize that we need to change our ways and it is increasingly seeping down to all of us. (Look at the pan european green vote increase)I agree we have done horrendous things to the planet and produced some truly monstrous people but the good outweighs the bad. Look at culture, the arts , science, music , sport etc human endeavor has been incredible and I personally am looking forward to more of it in whatever time I have left. I don’t think we are stupid enough to keep destroying our home. Humanity always finds a way. We are not collectively stupid.
    I don’t ascribe to this terrible future philosophy it’s just depressing and untrue.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    paddyuibh wrote: »
    AGAIN, a search of the relevent subjects is only a quick search away on the Internet. I havent time to please the "lefties" who like to try steer away from the matter.
    Don't worry, if you don't have the time to educate yourself, we won't bother either.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    work wrote: »
    Absolutely disagree. By the time people are all educated enough to lower the birth rate it will be too late (it already is!).
    The general trend in Western society is a reduced birth/fertility rate, so we are kinda almost there. Ireland has bucked that trend, but not massively, we're still talking low figures overall for Ireland.
    work wrote: »
    So lets expand until war, drought, infection, and general mass misery reestablishes the balance and destroy all biodiversity that may never return.
    We (in the context of Ireland) have never lived in a better time when it comes to war/drought/infection. If you're looking for example of those, then go backwards in time. You're throwing out a lot of words to describe a terrible future, with very little to back it up.
    work wrote: »
    Personally I do not think people are a positive thing for the planet, how are they?
    So you are contemplating ending your life for the betterment of planet Earth cause you have nothing positive for the planet? I hope not.
    Was there some utopia before humans came along?
    work wrote: »
    Name a single creature other than us that would agree if they could make that choice.
    Dogs. They love us.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    i think we should allow ourselves to be extremely pick about who comes in.

    the english language student visa system is a complete farce and universally abused.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭A Shropshire Lad


    Cal4567 wrote: »
    To be honest, we do have a lot of room in this sparsely populated country. We also have the jobs, at the moment. Do we have the built infrastructure? No. We don't. Not yet.

    .


    Yes for sure there are large parts of Ireland that are sparsely populated and they will likely stay that way. Theres no jobs or infrastructure there. The people coming in are converging on Dublin (understandibly) its surrounds, perhaps other cities to a lesser extend. As far as I can see Dublin already has a housing crisis. We could argue all day about whos fault that is but in the meantime it might be prudent to take some measures in regard to demand


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