TFI Real Time App Update - Shows Live Position and Cancellations

devnull

coylemj wrote: »

My experience is that it can happen with a G-A route (in my case the 75) when I'm using the TFI app, it does not happen with the Next Bus Dublin app. See post #40.

I've had problems with most apps and Go-Ahead departures to be fair, I've also seen Next Bus Dublin count down to a departure and no bus appear only for it to turn up a short while later almost like it was running off a timetable.

There's something not right with Go-Ahead real time info in general I would say because ever since day 1 there has been issues with inaccurate real time information, far more than there was with Dublin Bus. I'd be curious what Go-Ahead are doing different from Dublin Bus.

devnull

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Does the live thing only work for some buses? There hasn't been a single one showing on my route in the three days I've been checking.

Live position on the maps and on the route diagrams only for Dublin Bus at present, real time info should show for Dublin Bus, Go-Ahead and also Bus Eireann where the service supports it. Cancellation information should show for DB and Go-Ahead too.

What is your route?

Dyr

I remember when I first installed their app on an android device back in May the app fell over permanently because location services were turned off when it first ran

Says it all really.

OldMrBrennan83

devnull wrote: »

Live position on the maps and on the route diagrams only for Dublin Bus at present, real time info should show for Dublin Bus, Go-Ahead and also Bus Eireann where the service supports it. Cancellation information should show for DB and Go-Ahead too.

What is your route?

70/270. Has never shown a live bus on the map.

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

I'd be curious what Go-Ahead are doing different from Dublin Bus.

That's what I don't understand would think that GAIs fleet have the same AVL system as DB considering they're using the same wayfarers and the same on board announcements etc.

Yer Da sells Avon

Stephen15 wrote: »

One issue I've noticed is buses appearing ahead of their scheduled time on RTPI for example a few times it's happened me where a bus is due in 4 mins but then appears unexpectedly and remains up on the RTPI even though it has already left.

Thrashssacre wrote: »

I’ve had the same thing happen on the 76 been walking towards the stop look at my phone see I still have 5 or so mins then look up and see the bus flying past

devnull wrote: »

This is a Known issue with Go Ahead routes.

Stephen15 wrote: »

That's what I don't understand would think that GAIs fleet have the same AVL system as DB considering they're using the same wayfarers and the same on board announcements etc.

I drive for them and I don't fully understand why this happens (it's obviously a glitch, rather than by design), but if a bus is running early, the displays and the app will default to the scheduled time of arrival, as opposed to the actual time. I get around this by sitting and waiting at the bus stop until I'm no longer running early - which is what we're supposed to do anyway.

harringtonp

devnull wrote: »

I wonder if any third party App developers will be able to get hold of it and reproduce it in a more user friendly package?

smackyB wrote: »

The new app update has changed the data source for live times and locked it down

Everything I've seen so far indicates that TFI want to go down the road of locking down transport data into their own apps with no regard for third party developers - at this rate the days of Next Bus Dublin and other unofficial apps may be numbered.

From what has been indicated to me, the new GTFS Real time source of data should be made available in about 6 weeks. I'm wondering is it currently available internally and is this what the TFI app is currently using. Or is it using lower level raw data in a more direct fashion.

https://yourstop.info uses GTFS which is what google maps use. Currently only scheduled information is available in this format for Ireland. Once the GTFS realtime datasets are made available, I would hope they can be plugged in without too much trouble. If you look at Thunderbay or Baltimore, you will get an idea of how it would be used.

Without knowing much, the impression I get is that the old API could be obsoleted. If this is the case I could look into making the yourstop backend API available to others to also develop front ends against.

GarIT

On my route the bus is almost always a stop or two behind on the app compared to where it really is.

I've found a couple of stops renamed to nearby buildings/side streets instead of the street they are actually on. My local stop has been renamed to the name of a nearby church, I'm absolutely disgusted, I thought we were supposed to be a secular country.

Also the stops that kept their real names on the Dublin bus website and don't show up if you search for their real name in the TFI app.

devnull

GarIT wrote: »

On my route the bus is almost always a stop or two behind on the app compared to where it really is.

There's always going to be a little lag on any system unfortunately and systems will not poll for updates every second, normally live position system poll a vehicle for updates every 30-60 seconds depending on the system, then it'll take a few more seconds to get to your device and the device itself will only refresh at a set interval.

Every tracker is like this, from trains, to courier delivery live position to pretty much everything. It's just more apparent in DUblin to other places because some of our stops are so close together. In pretty much every EUropean country I have been to and also the UK, it's rare for stops to be close together like here.

I've found a couple of stops renamed to nearby buildings/side streets instead of the street they are actually on. My local stop has been renamed to the name of a nearby church, I'm absolutely disgusted, I thought we were supposed to be a secular country.

Also the stops that kept their real names on the Dublin bus website and don't show up if you search for their real name in the TFI app.

I would argue that giving a road name is fairly generic and giving a landmark is a bit more precise in telling you where to look along that road. Some roads are very very long so it can be hard to know where to start for looking for a stop when you don't have any indicator as to roughly where it might be.

harringtonp

GarIT wrote: »

On my route the bus is almost always a stop or two behind on the app compared to where it really is.

This is because by the time the app refreshes the latest information, the bus has moved on.

In YourStop originally just showed bus positions when known, then added an info window showing the time at that position (see image). In the current version give the second count too (when known) for the reason you mention. A bus can move a long way in a minute, particularly if nobody is looking to get off or board at a stop

GarIT

The behaviour of the real time position is almost what I would expect. I don't think it would be hard to improve it. Depending on whether they are pushing or pulling the location data the bus could at least push when it is leaving a stop. But they are probably relying on cell signals. My point was that some people above are saying it is 100% accurate when in my experience it has been less than 5% accurate.

And I agree about the landmarks to some degree, but the stops should still be searchable by the street they are on/by address too rather than having to know the exact name of a randomly chosen building somewhat nearby. And might it be a more personal note but I think naming a stop the name of a religious building should be forbidden.

harringtonp

devnull wrote: »

I would argue that giving a road name is fairly generic and giving a landmark is a bit more precise in telling you where to look along that road. Some roads are very very long so it can be hard to know where to start for looking for a stop when you don't have any indicator as to roughly where it might be.

Across the pond where cities are grid like, stops are often named according to the two streets at the closest intersection. That doesn't work as well in older cities though so you're left with imaginative naming.

GarIT

harringtonp wrote: »

Across the pond where cities are grid like, stops are often named according to the two streets at the closest intersection. That doesn't work as well in older cities though so you're left with imaginative naming.

For my local stop it is actually like on the Dublin bus website street1/street2. Searching for either in the TFI app returns no results. Which imo is a bug, stop names should at least match.

devnull

When you have well over 1,000 buses being traced by RTPI over the country feeding into a system, if you are refreshing every few seconds that an awful lot of work to push everything from every bus, to a central server and out to all of the apps and signs every few seconds.The backend costs would be huge and reliability poor, so it's really not a runner. Every system of it's kind has a refresh window.

GarIT wrote: »

For my local stop it is actually like on the Dublin bus website street1/street2. Searching for either in the TFI app returns no results. Which imo is a bug, stop names should at least match.

It might work for some areas but in other areas you have a bunch of stops with pretty much the same name, there's some routes on Dublin Bus where the stop announcements call the same thing for a few stops in a row for example.

The TFI naming convention is superior to me because it should work in all areas unlike the DB ones where you have duplicate stop names and a name that tells you sometimes little as to where the stop actually is.

I agree that the DB stop names work in some places at junctions to roads where this is possible, but this doesn't work in all locations because of the reasons that another poster has pointed out.

harringtonp

GarIT wrote: »

For my local stop it is actually like on the Dublin bus website street1/street2. Searching for either in the TFI app returns no results. Which imo is a bug, stop names should at least match.

These type of difficulties are inherent with text based search and give both data providers and app developers major headaches.

Which is why many apps (including TFI) offer location based search and map facilities. This takes unusual naming out of the equation.

harringtonp

devnull wrote: »

When you have well over 1,000 buses being traced by RTPI over the country feeding into a system, if you are refreshing every few seconds that an awful lot of work to push everything from every bus, to a central server and out to all of the apps and signs every few seconds.The backend costs would be huge and reliability poor, so it's really not a runner. Every system of it's kind has a refresh window.

Elaborating on this, take an example where AVL systems on buses push location every 5 seconds. These usually all go to a central server. Lets say that in GTFS based systems, the transit provider's server makes positions available for all buses on the network every 15 seconds. GTFS consumers like yourstop might also poll the transit provider for the latest positions of all buses every 15 seconds and store the information locally. Then in the specific case of yourstop, the client app or website is configured to refresh every 60 seconds from the server.

So in the worst case scenario you are talking about a bus position that is 5+15+15+60 seconds old. Which is why it is good to show the timestamp that is (often) transmitted with the GPS coordinates when showing location.

dfx-

I am converted to using the Offi App, which I think CSalem recommended here. Refreshes itself as you move.

devnull

dfx- wrote: »

I am converted to using the Offi App, which I think CSalem recommended here. Refreshes itself as you move.

Must be guessing at data then because the data updates from the vehicles and RTPI system don't get sent instantly for apps to latch on to, to show updates by the second etc.

Probably running off the old API as well.

devnull

Refresh button and functionality added now in todays update.

bk

Still no sign of it on iPhone, app hasn't been updated in 5 months.

Sad Professor

I received a notification earlier that the iPhone app will be updated soon and all favourites will be lost.

Sad Professor

iPhone app has been updated. It's very ugly even compared to the previous app. Obviously a poor port of the android version. I can't see anything better about it. I'd downgrade if I could. Need to find a new app now.

devnull

Sad Professor wrote: »

iPhone app has been updated. It's very ugly even compared to the previous app. Obviously a poor port of the android version. I can't see anything better about it. I'd downgrade if I could. Need to find a new app now.

The new app is using a different data feed that allows additional features to improve information accuracy that isn't open to all third party apps at the moment from what has been previously said, so you may want to bear this in mind.

The current version of the TFI App is a new app, not an upgrade of the older one, there is a different developer involved with this one, the same developer who has worked on similar systems for Transport for London.

Sad Professor

devnull wrote: »

The new app is using a different data feed that allows additional features to improve information accuracy that isn't open to all third party apps at the moment from what has been previously said, so you may want to bear this in mind.

The current version of the TFI App is a new app, not an upgrade of the older one, there is a different developer involved with this one, the same developer who has worked on similar systems for Transport for London.

Thanks for the info. If it's more accurate I might stick with it so. Hopefully it will improve.

VG31

Even if the UI is very un user-friendly, the map and cancelled bus features are very useful. The amount of cancelled buses on some of the routes I use is shocking. The 41 in particular often has 1 in every 3 or 4 departures cancelled. Yesterday there were two 41s in a row and a 41c cancelled.

I also had a problem where a bus showed as real time in the app but at the stop the real time board didn't show the bus. The TFI app counted down to due and the bus never came. I've also had problems with inaccurate times.

It seems that the Dublin Bus app's information is more reliable.

shanec1928

Sad Professor wrote: »

iPhone app has been updated. It's very ugly even compared to the previous app. Obviously a poor port of the android version. I can't see anything better about it. I'd downgrade if I could. Need to find a new app now.

For a national transport app it’s shocking bad! Ui is crap could also do with some sort of explanation on what the wording triangles are every bus from tomorrow on a route I’d use has one

bk

devnull wrote: »

The new app is using a different data feed that allows additional features to improve information accuracy that isn't open to all third party apps at the moment from what has been previously said, so you may want to bear this in mind.

The current version of the TFI App is a new app, not an upgrade of the older one, there is a different developer involved with this one, the same developer who has worked on similar systems for Transport for London.

It is great that it is using a new data feed with better features, but the developer badly needs to hire a good UI/UX person.

The UI/UX of the app is terrible. It feels like something created by software engineers * technically fine, but poor understanding of UX.

For example why does the live bus icon look almost exactly like the bus stop icon (I know it is slightly different, but too slight)? As it is, it is very difficult to find the bus amongst all the bus stops on a busy road. Just colour the bus location icon a different colour and it will stand out much better. A green icon or something like that.

Hopefully the same data feed makes it into the better designed apps, like Google Maps, Moovit and Next Bus.

* I say that as a developer myself, writing code is a very different skillset and mindset to UI/UX design IMO.

Oh and looking at the route map for the 16, since when does the 16 go into Larkhill!

And there seems to be bugginess around showing the live buses, I can't quiet pin it down, but you some times need, to unselect and reselect the option to show live times to get it to work.

It is definitely a good addition, I can't wait to see this real time data come to the BE city buses in Cork. But the app needs work.

p_haugh

Another thing to note is if you look up a route (e.g. 16), it gives one long list of all the available routes.
It doesn't group the results by operator, meaning its not initially clear as to which route is the correct one.

devnull

bk wrote: »

It is great that it is using a new data feed with better features, but the developer badly needs to hire a good UI/UX person.

The UI/UX of the app is terrible. It feels like something created by software engineers * technically fine, but poor understanding of UX.

It is done by Software ENgineers, these guys in fact:
https://www.mentz.net/en/about-us/our-clients/

Dyr

devnull wrote: »

It is done by Software ENgineers, these guys in fact:
https://www.mentz.net/en/about-us/our-clients/

Did the NTA take a look at their dog***** design website and think "that's just what we need"?

Or is this an EU mandated lowest tender fiasco?

devnull

Bambi wrote: »

devnull wrote: »

It is done by Software ENgineers, these guys in fact:
https://www.mentz.net/en/about-us/our-clients/

Did the NTA take a look at their dog***** design website and think "that's just what we need"?

Or is this an EU mandated lowest tender fiasco?

They're one of the market leaders in such systems and have clients all around the world including Transport for London, but it is fair to say they are more of a development company than interface experts.

Dyr

devnull wrote: »

They're one of the market leaders in such systems and have clients all around the world including Transport for London, but it is fair to say they are more of a development company than interface experts.

It's a bit like saying "it's fair to say to they're more of a bunch of brick layers than architects" after you've paid em to redesign your house


Apps didn't exist in the 1970s but somehow they managed to make it look like a '70s app. It just shows how clueless the NTA are that they didn't see a problem

harringtonp

What bothers me is how open data is pushed round the world. In the UK you have the likes of the 2017 bus services act. In Ireland you have

https://data.gov.ie/

and I'm pretty sure countries like the USA and Canada have similar structures in place.

Don't get me wrong, this part of it is great and is the way to go. What seems to happen on the public transport side of things is that governing bodies pay a company to make the data open (still all good here) but then they pay the same company to bring the open data to the end user via an app or website.

It is the latter part that I would say is not good, in my opinion it is effectively a conflict of interest. Because once a government organisation invests in end user systems, there is very little incentive or interest in encouraging development against the open interfaces. It happens anyway but the feeling I get is that it is tolerated rather than welcomed.

In the case of the new TFI app, I do wonder why the new open data set release date is being pushed out yet the new app which is clearly using different data sources than before has been out for several weeks and is being continually enhanced and improved.

This phenomenon is not peculiar to Ireland either, rather it seems to be the way these things work. For example across the board, transport authorities will push their own apps. However you would be hard pushed to get them to list 3rd party apps on their website even though they are using their open data interfaces.

Kh1993

The user interface is dreadful, I’m really not sure how some suit in the NTA signed off on it. Buggy, slow, unclear, doesn’t fit the screen properly, etc. did they even bother to test the thing? The main word that comes to mind is unprofessional. No surprise there with the all conquering NTA.

How come their pet project Go Ahead’s buses don’t show their live position?

devnull

Kh1993 wrote: »

How come their pet project Go Ahead’s buses don’t show their live position?

Probably because they are wanting to try the new feed and RTPI system with one operator first to see how it works before moving onto the next one. This is not uncommon for this kind of change. The old feed type doesn't support all of the functionality that the new app has.

shanec1928

I assume that everyone is rating the add and leaving feedback on the App Store

bk

devnull wrote: »

It is done by Software ENgineers, these guys in fact:
https://www.mentz.net/en/about-us/our-clients/

I know, but you missed the point.

They clearly don't have any User Interface (UI) / User Experience (UX) person on their team. UI/UX is a different job to Software Engineer.

A good software development team has both Software Engineers AND one or more UI/UX designers. Ideally a separate UI and UX person as they aren't exactly the same thing.

The software engineers focus on doing the coding, while the UI/UX people design the interface and how the users interact with the app.

BTW There is definitely issues with the Real Time not matching reality. I waited for a 16 that was marked as "Real Time" today, which didn't appear on the RTPI screen and never turned up in reality.

Christy Browne

bk wrote: »

I know, but you missed the point.

They clearly don't have any User Interface (UI) / User Experience (UX) person on their team. UI/UX is a different job to Software Engineer.

A good software development team has both Software Engineers AND one or more UI/UX designers. Ideally a separate UI and UX person as they aren't exactly the same thing.

The software engineers focus on doing the coding, while the UI/UX people design the interface and how the users interact with the app.

BTW There is definitely issues with the Real Time not matching reality. I waited for a 16 that was marked as "Real Time" today, which didn't appear on the RTPI screen and never turned up in reality.

Same thing happened me in Limerick tonight. Ended up getting a taxi that cost me nearly €20, unacceptable.

john boye

I tried this update today for the first time, just to see how it works. Looked up a couple of busy stops in town I was near and the one thing I was amazed by was how many departures were cancelled, a huge amount for a Sunday I thought. It's quite an eye-opener when you see them all together like that.

markpb

I was waiting for a bus at Dundrum on Saturday and the TFI Real Time app, TFI Journey Planner app and DB website were all showing different "real" times for the same bus at the same bus stop. Nowhere near the terminus either, they were all reporting live times. They also insisted that the bus had left my stop and continued to do so for the next ten minutes until the bus actually arrived.

harringtonp

markpb wrote: »

I was waiting for a bus at Dundrum on Saturday and the TFI Real Time app, TFI Journey Planner app and DB website were all showing different "real" times for the same bus at the same bus stop. Nowhere near the terminus either, they were all reporting live times. They also insisted that the bus had left my stop and continued to do so for the next ten minutes until the bus actually arrived.

Was the buses position shown and if so was that accurate ?

sharper

I'm regularly getting errors saying it can't connect to the server when trying to use this at peak times.

I don't think they have enough capacity which is sort of funny when you consider all the problems with full buses and trains.

Patrick2010

sharper wrote: »

I'm regularly getting errors saying it can't connect to the server when trying to use this at peak times.

I don't think they have enough capacity which is sort of funny when you consider all the problems with full buses and trains.

Getting this regularly now, never happened with the previous version. Also real time info is hit and miss. A 17 arrived at my stop 5 minutes earlier than real time was saying, yesterday it arrived 3 minutes early and today it wasn't showing at all so I got a 16, after 5 minutes it arrived back on real time showing it was due in 4 minutes.

harringtonp

Patrick2010 wrote: »

Getting this regularly now, never happened with the previous version. Also real time info is hit and miss. A 17 arrived at my stop 5 minutes earlier than real time was saying, yesterday it arrived 3 minutes early and today it wasn't showing at all so I got a 16, after 5 minutes it arrived back on real time showing it was due in 4 minutes.

Are these buses showing up on the live tracker ?

Slippin Jimmy

Does anyone know when the vehicle view will be added for bus eireann?