Are you taking part in any LGBTQ events for pride month?

nozzferrahhtoo

Mr.Frame wrote: »

Its always amusing when people (you) , (who are definitely NOT homophobic,of course) look upon gay people merely as "sex acts" and what we do with our penis.

Especially funny when the "sex acts" most people seem to associate with homosexuals are:

a) ones that a very significant % of homosexuals do not actually do.... some studies even finding areas where it is in fact a minority practice and

b) ones that quite a few heterosexual couplings actually do do, and many others want to do, with each other.

I think when people are saying our society does not need the Pride Festival any more, but themselves do not actually know what Pride is in fact celebrating..... they are directly providing examples of why it IS still required.

Pride is NOT about them celebrating where their penis goes, especially as many of them do not put it anywhere the rest of us don't!

It IS about them celebrating being allowed openly and safely love who they want to love, share their life with who they want to share their life with, and engage in acts like getting married or parenting children...... in a society that realises they can do ALL of things ever bit as well.... without even meaningless terms like "less ideal" for example which we hear often as unsubstantiated nonsense on the subject of gay parenting........ as the rest of us who have been privileged to do those simple things for decades.

And yes we have won so much in helping them attain that in society, and I feel we deserve to celebrate that. But yes we also have many more things to win in my view too.

And I do not need to be homosexual, which I absolutely am not, to say or understand any of that. And if this thread made even one user feel they do need to be, then the thread has failed that user.

Mr.Frame

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Especially funny when the "sex acts" most people seem to associate with homosexuals are:

a) ones that a very significant % of homosexuals do not actually do.... some studies even finding areas where it is in fact a minority practice and

b) ones that quite a few heterosexual couplings actually do do, and many others want to do, with each other.

I think when people are saying our society does not need the Pride Festival any more, but themselves do not actually know what Pride is in fact celebrating..... they are directly providing examples of why it IS still required.

Pride is NOT about them celebrating where their penis goes, especially as many of them do not put it anywhere the rest of us don't!

It IS about them celebrating being allowed openly and safely love who they want to love, share their life with who they want to share their life with, and engage in acts like getting married or parenting children...... in a society that realises they can do ALL of things ever bit as well.... without even meaningless terms like "less ideal" for example which we hear often as unsubstantiated nonsense on the subject of gay parenting........ as the rest of us who have been privileged to do those simple things for decades.

And yes we have won so much in helping them attain that in society, and I feel we deserve to celebrate that. But yes we also have many more things to win in my view too.

And I do not need to be homosexual, which I absolutely am not, to say or understand any of that. And if this thread made even one user feel they do need to be, then the thread has failed that user.

Thank you.

Wibbs

Mr.Frame wrote: »

So you dont want your daughter to be part of a celebration where I choose to put my penis? hahha/ what we do with our penis.

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Pride is NOT about them celebrating where their penis goes,

No love for the lesbians eh?

Zorya

Wibbs wrote: »

No love for the lesbians eh?

:eek: Lesbians can have their own penises too, ye know.

nozzferrahhtoo

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Especially funny when the "sex acts" most people seem to associate with homosexuals are:

a) ones that a very significant % of homosexuals do not actually do.... some studies even finding areas where it is in fact a minority practice and

b) ones that quite a few heterosexual couplings actually do do, and many others want to do, with each other.

I think when people are saying our society does not need the Pride Festival any more, but themselves do not actually know what Pride is in fact celebrating..... they are directly providing examples of why it IS still required.

Pride is NOT about them celebrating where their penis goes, especially as many of them do not put it anywhere the rest of us don't!

It IS about them celebrating being allowed openly and safely love who they want to love, share their life with who they want to share their life with, and engage in acts like getting married or parenting children...... in a society that realises they can do ALL of things ever bit as well.... without even meaningless terms like "less ideal" for example which we hear often as unsubstantiated nonsense on the subject of gay parenting........ as the rest of us who have been privileged to do those simple things for decades.

And yes we have won so much in helping them attain that in society, and I feel we deserve to celebrate that. But yes we also have many more things to win in my view too.

And I do not need to be homosexual, which I absolutely am not, to say or understand any of that. And if this thread made even one user feel they do need to be, then the thread has failed that user.

Yeah.... I feel like an ally by just treating gay people like normal people and not people who should be celebrated.

Horses for courses. Works with the gay people in my social circle.

Stop moaning ffs

Fascinating thread. As it get louder I’m sensing that our straight friends here have an awful lot of Queer envy going on.
Only rational explanation for the ‘protest too much’ aspect of this discussion.

That, or they're just pissed off their intolerances aren’t tolerated anymore.

Let’s hope it’s the former.

Mr.Frame

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Fascinating thread. As it get louder I’m sensing that our straight friends here have an awful lot of Queer envy going on.
Only rational explanation for the ‘protest too much’ aspect of this discussion.

That, or they're just pissed off their intolerances aren’t tolerated anymore.

Let’s hope it’s the former.

Lets hope indeed, but.

One eyed Jack

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

well at least we are finally getting somewhere. and now perhaps you might start to see the point i am making. You broadened the point to include something that nobody could ever object to and i dont understand why you would do that. perhaps you think it strengthens the point you are trying to make. It doesn't.

I understand why nozz would do it - because they enjoy painting themselves as the naive, put-upon, misunderstood intellectual that’s far too intelligent for their own good.

It would have been helpful if nozz had included the context of the exchange he was referring to, as it would have cleared up any misunderstanding. Seeing as he didn’t provide context, I will. It was in the abortion thread in the Atheism & Agnosticism forum where the topic of conversation was a pregnant 10 year old child in Brazil, and posters were suggesting that they could empathise with the child in that situation. I wasn’t sure how they could, seeing as they had no experience of being a 10 year old child living in Brazil who found themselves pregnant. Nozz then proceeded to give me an example of his ability to empathise with people who are homeless, which didn’t help me understand his point any better, since it was just another claim that he could empathise with something that to the best of my knowledge, he had no experience of.

I was not “triggered”, nor did I “go ape”, nor did I “lose the rag” as nozz claims, but simply pointed out to him that if he has no experience of something, then his claim to be able to empathise with people who have experience of something, is a claim I wouldn’t take seriously, because I don’t think it’s possible to empathise with someone on the basis of something that they have experience of, and you don’t, or I don’t.

I’m not a woman, and I have no experience of being a woman, so if I claimed that I knew what being a woman was like for someone who is a woman, I wouldn’t be surprised if they pointed out to me that I couldn’t possibly know what it is like to be a woman. That’s not identity politics. It’s just plain facts. The closest it comes to identity politics are “allies” claiming that they identify, or empathise with someone on the basis of something they have no experience of. I don’t think their opinions about something they have no experience of can be taken seriously. That’s all. They are, naturally, of a different opinion - that their opinions, in spite of their lack of experience, should be taken seriously. But nobody is under any obligation to do so, and they are perfectly free to point out that the person is talking nonsense as opposed to anything even coming close to an informed opinion on an issue that they simply can’t bear to acknowledge that they couldn’t possibly have any understanding of it never having any experience of it upon which to base their opinions, and that’s why I don’t take their claims of empathy and their opinions seriously - because like the “allies” of identity politics, it is entirely based upon their own preconceived notions of what they imagine an an experience must be like for someone else, ignoring the fact that they can never be that someone else who has experience of something they don’t.

sbsquarepants

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

EDIT: isn't it interesting for example, that while one user is claiming the war is not over and the other is claiming it is "won"...... the latter user has not actually stopped to say "Ok, could you lay out clearly the issues you think are still to be fought"?? Seemingly no interest in finding out, just in declaring the war "won" over and over. If I ever declare a war "won" and someone affected by it says "no it is not"..... my first..... no 2nd or 3rd or last..... reaction would be to ask the user in question to adumbrate the open issues for me! Why am I so different in this regard?

.

Sorry, I've been tied up. I assume you're talking about me?

My point was I don't see what more we as a society could do to make gay people feel accepted. We've a gay leader, gay cabinet minister, we've overwhelmingly voted to accept gay marriage.

Talk of wars being won is probably overly emotive (I'm not sure if I used those words or not)

Where do you feel we as a society or as a country are failing our gay citizens? I just can't see it?

What do you think we should be doing, that we haven't already done?

What specific problems do gay people encounter in modern day Ireland?

Stop moaning ffs

Stop moaning ffs wrote:

Fascinating thread. As it get louder I’m sensing that our straight friends here have an awful lot of Queer envy going on. Only rational explanation for the ‘protest too much’ aspect of this discussion.

Could be. Just as likely that a vocal minority of our gay friends are upset that the majority of straight people don't look at someone having a different sexuality as something to be proud of as it has been normalised in modern culture.

But no... It must be that all the straights are raging that we aren't gays.

OldMrBrennan83

I'm neither L, B, G, T, or Q, so no.

jimgoose

One eyed Jack wrote: »

...I wasn’t sure how they could, seeing as they had no experience of being a 10 year old child living in Brazil who found themselves pregnant...

Rather few people have. Is it not entirely possible to empathise with someone based on intellect and compassion, without necessarily having experienced verbatim that which the person(s) being empathised with have?

jimgoose

jimgoose wrote:

Rather few people have. Is it not entirely possible to empathise with someone based on intellect and compassion, without necessarily having experienced verbatim that which the person(s) being empathised with have?

Of course not. Because if two girls were 10 and pregnant in Brazil, they'd have EXACTLY the same experiences.

FFS. Nobody knows what it's like to be anyone else, regardless of how many things in common they have.

Sure two gay people know what it's like to be gay, but their experiences would be vastly different.

Crazy talk.

Mr.Frame

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Sorry, I've been tied up. I assume you're talking about me?

My point was I don't see what more we as a society could do to make gay people feel accepted. We've a gay leader, gay cabinet minister, we've overwhelmingly voted to accept gay marriage.

Talk of wars being won is probably overly emotive (I'm not sure if I used those words or not)

Where do you feel we as a society or as a country are failing our gay citizens? I just can't see it?

sbsquarepants wrote: »

What do you think we should be doing, that we haven't already done?

What specific problems do gay people encounter in modern day Ireland?

Gay parents are still fighting for equality,particularly gay men parents.
There is still no law with regard to recognition of LGBT families who have children by means of surrogacy .

Other problems include, verbal abuse from others,homophobic attacks, and not feeling comfortable holding your partners hand walking down a street for fear of abuse

One eyed Jack

jimgoose wrote: »

Rather few people have. Is it not entirely possible to empathise with someone based on intellect and compassion, without necessarily having experienced verbatim that which the person(s) being empathised with have?

That’s my point jim, I don’t think it is possible for someone to empathise with someone who is a completely different person to them. It would be like me suggesting to a pregnant woman I know what she’s experiencing. I don’t, I couldn’t possibly know. I don’t even know what it’s like to have period cramps! To me it just comes off as I imagine what it must be like, but that doesn’t mean I’m any closer to understanding what it actually is like for them.

To me at least, claiming I know what something is like for someone else, even though I have no experience of it upon which to base my opinions, is just silly. It’s entirely driven by one’s own ego, what they imagine an experience must be like for someone else based entirely upon what they think it must be like. I’m so far removed from those circumstances that to say I can imagine what it must be like in those circumstances would just be silly IMO.

People get attacked for being fat, wearing glasses, being ginger. People will always find a reason to attack someone if they want to. There are always going to be bad people.

With regards to parents, I agree there are a lot of things that need to change. No just a gay issue. Single father's are discriminated just as much.

Not really gay issues rather than just issues.

Stop moaning ffs

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Could be. Just as likely that a vocal minority of our gay friends are upset that the majority of straight people don't look at someone having a different sexuality as something to be proud of as it has been normalised in modern culture.

But no... It must be that all the straights are raging that we aren't gays.

The vast majority of straight people don’t get their knickers in a twist about a minority long discriminated against and ostracised and shamed in our country, being able to celebrate their pride in their equality and finally being accepted in our society. The ultimate point of which is to let young people out there probably torturing themselves in fear of coming out to their families know, that it gets better. They’ll be welcome in the world and the need for fear of being who they are finally dropped and forgotten.

That is what pride is for.

We’re proud of Ireland too and everyone in it too for getting us here. That’s also a huge part of it. I was never more proud of my country then that day in May 2015.
It’s a shame to see the naysayers are still prattling on hereabouts.


If all you see is assless chaps that are never actually there and you somehow have a problem with people celebrating freedom at last,

That’s on you and you alone. And says more about you than them to be fair.

Stop moaning ffs

Stop moaning ffs wrote:

That’s on you and you alone. And says more about you than them to be fair.

Not at all. I've said on numerous occasions that I have no issue with Pride. I just said I wouldn't being my daughter. No big deal. L

Somehow me thinking that makes me a homophobe.

Stop moaning ffs

Stop moaning ffs wrote:

The vast majority of straight people don’t get their knickers in a twist about a minority long discriminated against and ostracised and shamed in our country, being able to celebrate their pride in their equality and finally being accepted in our society. The ultimate point of which is to let young people out there probably torturing themselves in fear of coming out to their families know, that it gets better. They’ll be welcome in the world and the need for fear of being who they are finally dropped and forgotten.

No knicker twisting happening though. I've stated on numerous occasions that I have no issue with pride although I personally don't think that it's an appropriate place for my 8 year old daughter.

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That’s my point jim, I don’t think it is possible for someone to empathise with someone who is a completely different person to them. It would be like me suggesting to a pregnant woman I know what she’s experiencing. I don’t, I couldn’t possibly know. I don’t even know what it’s like to have period cramps! To me it just comes off as I imagine what it must be like, but that doesn’t mean I’m any closer to understanding what it actually is like for them.

(My emphasis)

This is why we distinguish between sympathy and empathy. Nobody has suggested they are the same thing.

I can sympathise with a homeless person, or with a person who has lost a child, or has been the victim of a hate crime. I cannot empathise with them.

Firebird on the Run

Stephen15 wrote: »

It's a left wing virtue signalling agenda being shoved down our throats. I don't have a problem with the acts of homosexuality as such but I don't think people need to be showing it off as if "look at me I'm gay isn't it great" when the vast majority don't care it should be tolerated not embraced. I also find it ironic a lot of the people that support pride also support mass Islamic immigration which supports throwing gays off buildings.

I agree with the first part of your comment, and I think it should be accepted but not encouraged. But as for supporting the immigration of Muslims I believe many of them are actually fleeing from war or Islamic government atrocities including repression of homosexuals. However when they arrive in the foreign land many of them do face discrimination, rejection or even being disgusted due to being a Muslim or coming from an Islamic country. So as a community which has been subjected to discrimination and has been subjected to discrimination and been looked upon as disgusting, I would say they sympathize with them. Also they do feel for (Muslim) gays who are being brutally penalized in Islamic countries ( actually many of them still see themselves as Muslims even though they are gay, just as Christian or Jewish gays, or as we see ourselves as Catholics yet we do not follow the religion or we criticize the religion, the church, etc.).

ohnonotgmail

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

(My emphasis)

This is why we distinguish between sympathy and empathy. Nobody has suggested they are the same thing.

I can empathise with a homeless person, or with a person who has lost a child, or has been the victim of a hate crime. I cannot sympathise with them.

i think you have sympathy and empathy backwards.

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Of course not. Because if two girls were 10 and pregnant in Brazil, they'd have EXACTLY the same experiences.

FFS. Nobody knows what it's like to be anyone else, regardless of how many things in common they have.

Sure two gay people know what it's like to be gay, but their experiences would be vastly different.

Crazy talk.

Isn’t that what’s happening with what was formerly the “LGBT community” now? Because of the fact that more and more people are able to speak for themselves, it’s becoming quite obvious that actually the people who claimed to be representative of this “community” they speak of, aren’t representative of people who are are either lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender at all! It’s becoming obvious through the power of social media that has given individuals the ability to speak for themselves, that actually they don’t have all that much in common with others in this so-called “community”, that they’re not all into leathers and feathers.

We have people like Milo Yiannopoulos lamenting the fact that the stereotype of the mincing gay man no longer holds true, that not every gay man is interested in “gay culture” which he believes has become too mainstream, that they aren’t the deviants they were once thought to be, that they actually have other interests outside the bedroom. He wishes for a time when gay men actually had someone to rally against, when people actually gave a shìt that someone was gay. Not that many people actually do any more, and that’s a problem for the likes of Milo and the likes of Queer Advocates Ireland - they’re finding themselves with very little to do these days but twiddle their thumbs and invent political enemies to rally against.

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i think you have sympathy and empathy backwards.

I did, I corrected it after I hit "submit", but you got there before me!

Zorya

All this turmoil could so easily be solved. Every citizen must be compulsorily gay for the month of June - it's a pity June is not closer to November when we could put our compulsory moustaches to use, but, well, leave that issue with the me. In the compulsorily gay month of June, the ministry will (strictly ) enforce Kinky Mondays, Drag Wednesdays and all citizens, no matter the aesthetic state of their bottoms, are obliged to wear assless chaps on every Friday.

Firebird on the Run

Deleted User wrote: »

Could be. Just as likely that a vocal minority of our gay friends are upset that the majority of straight people don't look at someone having a different sexuality as something to be proud of as it has been normalised in modern culture.

But no... It must be that all the straights are raging that we aren't gays.

Are you suggesting that gay people are not just looking for equal rights and want to be accepted and treated like "normal" people but they are seeking attention and want to be beyond normal, something special that they and everyone else should be proud of?!
It is nothing to be ashamed of, but it is not an achievement either. The act of being brave and say it and fight for your rights is something to be proud of but simply being gay doesn't make you some one to be proud of, neither does being straight!

Mr.Frame

Zorya wrote: »

All this turmoil could so easily be solved. Every citizen must be compulsorily gay for the month of June - it's a pity June is not closer to November when we could put our compulsory moustaches to use, but, well, leave that issue with the me. In the compulsorily gay month of June, the ministry will (strictly ) enforce Kinky Mondays, Drag Wednesdays and all citizens, no matter the aesthetic state of their bottoms, are obliged to wear assless chaps on every Friday.

Thanks for the snide derogatory remarks . It is comments like THIs that LGBT have to put up with day in day out.

But hey, sure "im only having a laugh,Ive gay friends anyway,how could i be homophobic"

victor8600

Mr.Frame wrote: »

Thanks for the snide derogatory remarks . ...

I thought Zorya just tried to express his/her/ze fantasy as a joke. It could be that Zorya secretly wishes for the government to force his/her/ze to come out

Firebird on the Run

Firebird on the Run wrote:

Are you suggesting that gay people are not just looking for equal rights and want to be accepted and treated like "normal" people but they are seeking attention and want to be beyond normal, something special that they and everyone else should be proud of?! It is nothing to be ashamed of, but it is not an achievement either. The act of being brave and say it and fight for your rights is something to be proud of but simply being gay doesn't make you some one to be proud of, neither does being straight!

Nope. I'm saying that there is a vocal minority that are not happy unless they are perpetual victims and acceptance means they lose the currency of outrage. Thankfully they are few and far between

Mr.Frame wrote:

Thanks for the snide derogatory remarks . It is comments like THIs that LGBT have to put up with day in day out.

As was said to me earlier when I complained about being wrongly branded a homophobe.... "Aw diddums"

Outlaw Pete

Oh I forgot, I'm going to Elton tonight, that counts