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Frank interview

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,001 ✭✭✭Unearthly


    Work provided a presentation yesterday from the VHI promoting plant based health benefits. Hundreds tuned in. Was excellent to see.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    Gary Yurofsky Isreali News interview

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FE7Yf5fkTqc


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    (Not an interview)
    Philosophical breakdowns of the hypocrite arguments.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZOymBp1vvk


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious




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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    Sort of an interview
    Claire Byrne studio debate on veganism.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IC2zMu63Nd0


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    Dr. Alex Hershaft is a Holocaust survivor, animal rights activist, and co-founder and president of the Farm Animal Rights Movement (FARM). He has previously had a 30-year career in materials science, and holds a PHD in inorganic chemistry.
    At about 25mins in he begins to speak about making the connection between the pile of hooves he saw in a slaughterhouse and the pile of shoes he saw in Poland.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhrbuqUy6E


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    auspicious wrote: »
    Dr. Alex Hershaft is a Holocaust survivor, animal rights activist, and co-founder and president of the Farm Animal Rights Movement (FARM). He has previously had a 30-year career in materials science, and holds a PHD in inorganic chemistry.
    At about 25mins in he begins to speak about making the connection between the pile of hooves he saw in a slaughterhouse and the pile of shoes he saw in Poland.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhrbuqUy6E

    There's no equivalence to the nazi holocaust or its origins. No one wants to commit genocide* and wipe out cattle. It remains animal farming feeds people and animal welfare laws here insist that animals are looked after and killed only after they are stunned etc.

    *Correction: it would appear that farm animals are to be eradicated according to (some) vegan websites - so that there will be no cattle or any other farmed animals...

    Edit. Looked up Dr. Alex Hershaft. Born in 1934 in Poland - the family did not spend time in any of the Nazi concentration camps but instead spent much of the war in hidng. He later moved to the US where he became a vegetarian many years later.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    gozunda wrote: »
    There's no equivalence. No one I know wants to commit genocide* and wipe out cattle as a species. It remains animal farming feeds people and animal welfare laws here insist that animals are looked after and killed only after they are stunned etc.

    *Correction: it would appear that farm animals are to be eradicated according to vegan websites - so that there will be no cattle or any other farmed animals...

    Edit. Looked up Dr. Alex Hershaft. Born in 1934 in Poland - the family did not spend time in any of the Nazi concentration camps but instead spent much of the war in hidng. He later moved to the US where he became a vegetarian many years later.

    Comically missing the point again.

    You do love trawling through those vegan websites it seems.

    Do we have a wannabe vegan on our hands ?

    The lady doth protest too much, me thinks.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,954 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    gozunda wrote: »
    *Correction: it would appear that farm animals are to be eradicated according to vegan websites

    What websites did you get that from?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    Dr. Hershaft did not draw equivalent comparisons. He drew parallels, which he explicitly stated.
    If you missed the point watch from 39mins in.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    What websites did you get that from?

    Just to clarify - I'm using eradicate as given here

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/eradicate
    to do away with as completely as if by pulling up by the roots

    A quick Google provided me with a selection of examples tbh. The general idea (from these websites) seems to be that a small number want all animal agriculture to be stopped. And as the estimated 60-70 billion animals will no longer be needed so put in sanctuaries and left die out there as they will no longer be needed or bred etc. Tbh thats some fairly big sanctuaries.

    The sites I viewed also contained some fairly rabid anti-farming stuff which I'd prefer not to link to all the same ..

    Its a subject which has been variously detailed / discussed here for starters. An example.
    With regard to domesticated farm animals not being able to survive in the wild etc, I've discussed this with other vegans and we were all pretty much in agreement on it. Basically, domestic farm animals have been selectively bred for certain qualities that make them completely unsuitable for wild living, they are so far removed from their wild counterparts that that kindest thing to do would be to phase out breeding of these animals, care for any that are left in sanctuaries etc and let these domesticated breeds die out. 

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110149336&postcount=111

    And promoted by one of the fake meat brands advocating veganism / taking animals out of the food system and ending animal agriculture.

    https://plantbasednews.org/lifestyle/we-can-end-animal-agriculture-2035/

    And promotion of same by some vegan advocates

    https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/567165/the-end-of-animal-farming-by-jacy-reese/

    That said I reckon the topic would make a very interesting discussion


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    auspicious wrote: »
    Dr. Hershaft did not draw equivalent comparisons. He drew parallels, which he explicitly stated.
    If you failed to miss the point watch from 39mins in.

    I did thanks.

    Btw I didn't mention any "equivalent comparisons"

    This was my comment
    gozunda wrote: »
    There's no equivalence to the nazi holocaust or its origins. No one wants to commit genocide* and wipe out cattle. It remains animal farming feeds people and animal welfare laws here insist that animals are looked after and killed only after they are stunned etc. ...

    I think you may be splitting hairs tbh.
    parallel(s)

    If something has a parallel, it is similar to something else, but exists or happens in a different place or at a different time
    Equivalence

    the fact of having the same amount, value, purpose, qualities, etc.:

    There's a general equivalence between the two concepts.

    Or as I detailed -There's no equivalence. I haven't changed my opinion on that either. One was intended genocide. The other is not and never has been.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You have moved from -

    ‘it would appear that farm animals are to be eradicated according to vegan websites - so that there will be no cattle or any other farmed animals...


    To

    ‘ The general idea seems to be that a small number want all animal agriculture to be stopped.’

    That’s a fair big move alright.

    Was no harm for you to be questioned on it so.

    From a typical, sweeping, matter of fact statement to quite the retreat.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    You have moved from -‘it would appear that farm animals are to be eradicated according to vegan websites - so that there will be no cattle or any other farmed animals...To The general idea seems to be that a small number want all animal agriculture to be stopped.’That’s a fair big move alright. Was no harm for you to be questioned on it so. From a typical, sweeping, matter of fact statement to quite the retreat.

    Lol. Klopp. Nope. Read again. If there's is no animal agriculture then there will be no cattle or any other farmed animals. Which part of that is difficult to understand? And yes that idea thankfully is a minority view.

    Btw you didn't question anyone. You used your comment as an ad hom. And to that I made no reply.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    gozunda wrote: »
    Lol. Klopp. Nope. Read again. If there's is no animal agriculture then there will be no cattle or any other farmed animals. Which part of that is difficult to understand? And yes that idea thankfully is a minority view.

    Btw you didn't question anyone. You used your comment as an ad hom. And to that I made no reply.

    Typical of you to find it funny.

    We are talking about the breeding, imprisonment and slaughter of animals here but you are flat out trying to win little arguments.

    I shouldn’t really give you the oxygen and I’ll try harder in future not to. You don’t care the same way I do.

    Actions speak louder than words. I don’t pay anyone to nor profit from the breeding, imprisonment and slaughter of animals.

    I’ll leave it there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Typical of you to find it funny. We are talking about the breeding, imprisonment and slaughter of animals here but you are flat out trying to win little arguments. I shouldn’t really give you the oxygen and I’ll try harder in future not to. You don’t care the same way I do. Actions speak louder than words. I don’t pay anyone to nor profit from the breeding, imprisonment and slaughter of animals.
    I’ll leave it there.

    No. It was your comment on my post which is funny. But no matter. And if you check you will find the topic is the guy in a video talking about the nazi Holocaust and the (vegan) idea that all farm animals be wiped out. That's what we are discussing.

    If you remember - you engaged with me. You dont have to do so to just metaphorically throw the toys out of the pram.

    But anyway I see we're back to the same type of track. I could just as easily claim to 'care' more than you btw. But lets leave that diversion in respect of the new charter and return to the actual discussion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    Dietitian Answers Commonly Asked Questions About Going Vegan.


    More fibre, more antioxidants, less saturated fat.
    Planet welfare, human welfare and animal welfare.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2Uut8vNBfdk&t=29s


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    Veganism is the opposite of extreme.
    Is it more extreme to chop down a plant? Or is it more extreme to purposefully chop off an animal's head?

    3 minute clip



    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OA55lVeY22Y


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,599 ✭✭✭White Clover


    auspicious wrote: »
    Dietitian Answers Commonly Asked Questions About Going Vegan.


    More fibre, more antioxidants, less saturated fat.
    Planet welfare, human welfare and animal welfare.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2Uut8vNBfdk&t=29s

    This is odd. You're agreeing with this dietician "expert" who is promoting animal welfare, while vegans are against animal welfare.
    Which is it? Both positions couldn't be further apart. Just another example of the flakiness of your ideals. Hitching on to any passing bandwagon no matter how contradictory it is!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,599 ✭✭✭White Clover


    auspicious wrote: »
    Veganism is the opposite of extreme.
    Is it more extreme to chop down a plant? Or is it more extreme to purposefully chop off an animal's head?

    3 minute clip



    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OA55lVeY22Y

    Are you trying to say that is the way animals are slaughtered in this country? Have you seen this done?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,001 ✭✭✭Unearthly


    This is odd. You're agreeing with this dietician "expert" who is promoting animal welfare, while vegans are against animal welfare.
    Which is it? Both positions couldn't be further apart. Just another example of the flakiness of your ideals. Hitching on to any passing bandwagon no matter how contradictory it is!
    Veganism against animal welfare?

    Explain


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Are you trying to say that is the way animals are slaughtered in this country? Have you seen this done?

    Seen what done ? You’d be well pressed to see anything that involves the slaughtering of animals. They keep that well hidden and well protected. They know what the fallout of that would be. The overnight death of an industry. Overnight.

    If slaughterhouses had glass walls everyone would be a vegan or vegetarian.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    This is odd. You're agreeing with this dietician "expert" who is promoting animal welfare, while vegans are against animal welfare.
    Which is it? Both positions couldn't be further apart. Just another example of the flakiness of your ideals. Hitching on to any passing bandwagon no matter how contradictory it is!

    It's more odd that you haven't understood the concepts advocated here on the forum.
    Animal exploitation and abuse of their rights, or lack thereof, is not conducive to their welfare. You're mixing welfare practices with welfare.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    auspicious wrote: »
    It's more odd that you haven't understood the concepts advocated here on the forum.
    Animal exploitation and abuse of their rights, or lack thereof, is not conducive to their welfare. You're mixing welfare practices with welfare.

    I'd strongly disagree. The poster is not mixing anything up. In Ireland Animal welfare is enshrined in law and safeguards the health and welfare of all animals whether farmed, wild or domestic.

    This from a previous comment here
    Vegans don't want animals farmed, so only abolition of this practice is compatible with that.

    This type of abolitionism approach does not support animal welfare at all
    Abolitionists maintain that ...we must abolish, and not merely regulate, institutionalized animal exploitation, and that abolitionists should not support welfare reform campaigns

    And imo that's completely wrong. Looking after animals properly is absolutely conductive to their welfare. Its not only a legal requirement but also the right thing to do imo I'm sorry you don't seem to agree with that.

    Interestingingly abolitionism also seeks to end the keeping of animals as pets / companion animals for any reason.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    Looking after animals properly = not exploiting them; not abusing their being; not hurting them; not bolt gunning them in the head; putting their welfare before personal gain and pleasure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    auspicious wrote: »
    Looking after animals properly = not exploiting them; not abusing their being; not hurting them; not bolt gunning them in the head; putting their welfare before personal gain and pleasure.

    Thats the thing I dont know anyone who in keeping an animal in farming or keeping a pet. exploits them to deliberately harm them or indeed puts any aspect of animal welfare before 'personal gain or pleasure". As for 'bolt guns' - afaik their use is highly regulated and in my experience never used by members of the general public.

    If you are aware of someone breaking the law or deliberatly harming an animal then the best thing to do - is to report it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    Oh my good god!! LOL. Animal agriculture does exploit animals to deliberately harm them. That's the definition of it. They are all killed. That's harming!
    You can put them on a soft silk cushion for the duration of their deliberately imposed short lifespans but their head will still eventually be separated from their neck.
    Duh.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    auspicious wrote: »
    Oh my good god!! LOL. Animal agriculture does exploit animals to deliberately harm them. That's the definition of it. They are all killed. That's harming!You can put them on a soft silk cushion for the duration of their deliberately imposed short lifespans but their head will still eventually be separated from their neck.
    Duh.

    No again I'd disagree with that. Deliberatly harming is the act of inflicting gratuitous ill treatment. Slaughter and animal euthanisea is not undertaken for the purpose of ill treatment. Even the killing of any animal - whether farmed or domestic is highly regulated and must by law minimise any suffering. And btw i can accept you dont want animals to be farmed. And thats ok.

    However domestic animals are fed, protected from predators and receive medical care as necessary to prevent harm and suffering. That's just one of the reasons why we have animal welfare laws and practice.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 229 ✭✭Bigbooty


    Actually Irish law, and welfare laws prohibits unnecessary suffering which ultimately provides a legal framework for necessary suffering. If you take Mink farming for example, which is being abolished in this country as we speak. Legally speaking you are allowed to keep them in tiny crates, side by side. We know that minks are highly territorial, solitary animals that kill each other to defend their territory which is over a rather large area. Yet legally we can keep thousands of them in confinement. Their existence is absolute torture and farming them is completely cruel but it is/was allowed under Irish law.


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