Frank interview

auspicious

Forget the bs youtube title. I think the discussion is quite clear and concise.


( empathetic
/ɛmpəˈθɛtɪk/
adjective
showing an ability to understand and share the feelings of another. )


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvdj7ZmPUis

auspicious

Joshua Entis: I never heard of him before I had seen this video. A very good speaker.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=viq1ldZoq5o

auspicious

The vegan 'agenda' - a better environment, kinder world and better health.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UX0ssckEbvE

auspicious

Recent vegan Cosmicskeptic discusses the philosophy of veganism with the godfather of animal rights Peter Singer:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tSEfiPm_YRE&t=7s

auspicious

- ...knowing all those animals in those sheds, I owe them so much for what we've done to them, and the planet...I'm working for the kids, I'm working for the animals. They're my employers at this point."
Dr Michael Klaper

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J2cfn6o1p44

auspicious

How to make  these new born calves drink water and eat [ kibble ] ? A welly on the head.

The industry breaks broiler chickens through selective breeding.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UIS3LdlMaEQ

gozunda

auspicious wrote: »

How to make  these new born calves drink water and eat [ kibble ] ? A welly on the head.
...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UIS3LdlMaEQ

The trouble with many of these cherry picked videos is that they have little relation to reality. I've no idea what farm your man visited in the UK but new born calves are not just fed 'water and cereal'. Young calves are fed milk / milk replacer and other foods are provided. Water must be made available to all animals as a matter of necessity. I never seen anyone ever using -a welly on the head' or otherwise whilst feeding calves. Good care of calves is the recommended practice and the right thing to do.

Joey Carbstrong is an extremist who frequently uses exceptional footage of poor animal welfare to push his own agenda whilst doing nothing to improve the welfare of those same animals. I find his constant self promotion and rhetoric to be extremly disingenuous at best.

There's multiple anti farming threads where similar videos were posted. Very few of them stand up to scrutiny tbh.

auspicious

I think an extremist is someone who sends mother's to slaughter while pregnant.

I think an extremist is someone who,
knowing, live foetuses, physically struggle in a just slaughtered pregnant mother experience the death of the mother through the onset of anoxia, and are cut from the womb and have a needle inserted in to their heart to draw their blood by vaccum causing untold pain, and then have their throats slit open, continues to perpetuate this evil by purchasing the root of the cause: meat and milk.

gozunda

auspicious wrote: »

I think an extremist is someone who sends mother's to slaughter while pregnant.I think an extremist is someone who,knowing, live foetuses, physically struggle in a just slaughtered pregnant mother experience the death of the mother through the onset of anoxia, and are cut from the womb and have a needle inserted in to their heart to draw their blood by vaccum causing untold pain, and then have their throats slit open, continues to perpetuate this evil by purchasing the root of the cause: meat and milk.

Auspicious I think you're mixing up the threads this is not the serum one.

Anyway I do think most of that is hyperbole. But I digress - Your man Carbstrong is a reformed / ex criminal who uses videos like above for dubious 'fund's raising and does nothing for the welfare of the actual animals he portrays in his endless stream of regurgitated videos. He has made quite a comfortable career for himself in this new role - jetting around the world in even more self promotion.

As detailed in the other thread - afaik it is not the norm here. If a cow goes down with and cant get up or other veterinary reason - then there may be unfortunately times when pregnant cattle are slaughtered. No logical person is going to wilfully do so for the heck of it or otherwise. That vaccine manufacture is currently using serums harvested from such animals to help people evidently happens. And please note - animals here do not have 'their throats" slit without being rendered unconscious first. The one exception is hal-al - which I do not agree with. There is no "root cause" where some are randomly slinging ****. If there are practices which could be improved upon then thats what should be done - not using the exceptions to beat up everybody involved in farming.

jh79

auspicious wrote: »

I think an extremist is someone who sends mother's to slaughter while pregnant.

I think an extremist is someone who,
knowing, live foetuses, physically struggle in a just slaughtered pregnant mother experience the death of the mother through the onset of anoxia, and are cut from the womb and have a needle inserted in to their heart to draw their blood by vaccum causing untold pain, and then have their throats slit open, continues to perpetuate this evil by purchasing the root of the cause: meat and milk.

But you said in the other thread that Bovine Serum was a necessary evil for vaccine production?

auspicious

I didn't read most of your drivel.
I spotted 'root cause' though and hyberbole. Baby cows are ripped from their dead mother because she is brought to the slaughterhouse from the dairy industry where she is considered no longer financially viable or from the beef industry.
It's not hyperbole to suggest that if one knows about foetal bovine/calf serum and the extreme way it is harvested yet continues to support the dairy and beef industries by purchasing their products i.e. meat and milk than one is an extremist.
Don't bother repying to me now or in the future gozunda as I'm done giving you the time of day.

auspicious

jh79 wrote: »

But you said in the other thread that Bovine Serum was a necessary evil for vaccine production?

Nope. It's all there is atm. The world is not yet flooded with ethical alternatives. And in certain cases it's necessary to administer a vaccine to a human. If the supply of these unfortunate creatures continued to reduce through the boycotting of related products than there would be no choice but to formulate ethical sources.

gozunda

auspicious wrote: »

I didn't read most of your drivel.I spotted 'root cause' though and hyberbole. Baby cows are ripped from their dead mother because she is brought to the slaughterhouse from the dairy industry where she is considered no longer financially viable or from the beef industry.It's not hyperbole to suggest that if one knows about foetal bovine/calf serum and the extreme way it is harvested yet continues to support the dairy and beef industries by purchasing their products i.e. meat and milk than one is an extremist.Don't bother repying to me now or in the future gozunda as I'm done giving you the time of day.

Again auspicious why the personalised style of posting? I called your comment hyperbole - for that is what they are.

I note the emotive use of 'baby cows'. A cow refers to the female of a species - calves can be either male or female - so the use of such a term is both incorrect and saccharinely emotive.

As another poster pointed out - no idea why you are singling out 'dairy' - there is no indications that its solely dairy cows only from which the serum is harvested.

You also are mixing up cull or barren cows which enter the food chain with this practice of harvesting serum. Not sure why that is tbh.

So if people take these vaccines- are they supporting this practice? As detailed Afaik I have never came across this here. So no - eating whole foods such as butter etc is not supporting this practice.

By all means - demand that this practice is changed but please do not use it as excuse to tar and feather all types of animal farming. It does the discussion no merit.

jh79

auspicious wrote: »

Nope. It's all there is atm. The world is not yet flooded with ethical alternatives. And in certain cases it's necessary to administer a vaccine to a human. If the supply of these unfortunate creatures continued to reduce through the boycotting of related products than there would be no choice but to formulate ethical sources.

So are you complicit in this "evil" by getting vaccinated?

auspicious

jh79 wrote: »

So are you complicit in this "evil" by getting vaccinated?

I've stated my position on this in previous posts.
Personally I haven't had need of many vaccinations luckily. I've had two tetanus shots since my vaccines in national school.
And regarding complicity: you can't be complicit if you are unaware.

jh79

auspicious wrote: »

I've stated my position on this in previous posts.
Personally I haven't had need of many vaccinations luckily. I've had two tetanus shots since my vaccines in national school.
And regarding complicity: you can't be complicit if you are unaware.

Will you vaccinate in the future?

auspicious

If need be, probably. I'll certainly research it first.
Of course it's difficult to judge someone morally culpable who needs a vaccine and is aware of FBS since a human life in general is accepted as having a greater degree of value than that of an animal's.
I wouldn't now being aware, go to a holiday destination that requires vaccinations unless I could assert their ethical origin. On the other hand if I was a doctor , let's say Doctor- without- borders, then of course it morally acceptable.
As I said before, the pursuit of ethical alternatives will definitely increase if the unethical source is diminished through the boycotting of the products from the industries that create the source.

auspicious

( not an interview)

Cosmicskeptic with some "inconvenient moral considerations".

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gcVR2OVxPYw

auspicious

Guy open to conversation.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=To2vMMi653U

auspicious

98 year-old former heart surgeon Ellsworth Wareham ( managed 104 ).


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FX58PyQwrcI

uck51js9zml2yt

I take it vegans are no longer going to eat organic vegetables!!

After all, animals are being exploited to provide manure used to fertilize said organic vegetables.

davidjtaylor

Aspen Rough Switch-hitter wrote: »

I take it vegans are no longer going to eat organic vegetables!!

After all, animals are being exploited to provide manure used to fertilize said organic vegetables.

They're being exploited to help feed most humans - why are you singling out vegans for what is a failure of the system? However:


The Vegan Organic Network.


My partner grows plants veganically and provides around 50% of our calories on less than an acre.


More farms are moving in that direction (though not fast enough for me).


Example: https://www.kitchen-gardens.co.uk/ - everything supplied to its customers is grown without using animal input.

auspicious

( Not an interview. )

"When you lose your memory you lose everyone who ever mattered to you"

Foods which are high in saturated fats:

-milk and white chocolate, toffee, cakes, puddings and biscuits

-pastries and pies

-fatty meat, such as lamb chops

-processed meat, such as sausages, burgers, bacon and kebabs

-butter, lard, ghee, dripping, margarine, goose fat and suet

-coconut and palm oils and coconut cream
full fat dairy products such as cream, milk, yogurt, crème fraiche and cheese.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v_ONFix_e4k

jh79

auspicious wrote: »

( Not an interview. )

"When you lose your memory you lose everyone who ever mattered to you"

Foods which are high in saturated fats:

-milk and white chocolate, toffee, cakes, puddings and biscuits

-pastries and pies

-fatty meat, such as lamb chops

-processed meat, such as sausages, burgers, bacon and kebabs

-butter, lard, ghee, dripping, margarine, goose fat and suet

-coconut and palm oils and coconut cream
full fat dairy products such as cream, milk, yogurt, crème fraiche and cheese.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v_ONFix_e4k

Another dodgy vegan doctor.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/medicine-is-hard-and-should-be-practiced-with-caution/

auspicious

jh79 wrote: »

Another dodgy vegan doctor.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/medicine-is-hard-and-should-be-practiced-with-caution/

Ah the poster boys of Big pharma. Have you ever read critical reviews of them.


A plant based diet will not prevent diabetes in cases due to hereditary genetics and such nor will it treat it.

A plant based diet may reduce the potential risk of developing it, amongst other diseases.

Science-based medicine agree with this.
"We know that controlling blood sugar, cholesterol, and blood pressure in diabetics prevents devastating complications.  If a diabetic loses 20 lbs and has normal sugars, we know we’ve reduced their risk, but evidence seems to support the idea that they are still “diabetic”, at least from the perspective of risk.

The video was about reducing risk to alzheimer's disease though.

jh79

auspicious wrote: »

Ah the poster boys of Big pharma. Have you ever read critical reviews of them.


A plant based diet will not prevent diabetes in cases due to hereditary genetics and such nor will it treat it.

A plant based diet may reduce the potential risk of developing it, amongst other diseases.

Science-based medicine agree with this.
"We know that controlling blood sugar, cholesterol, and blood pressure in diabetics prevents devastating complications.  If a diabetic loses 20 lbs and has normal sugars, we know we’ve reduced their risk, but evidence seems to support the idea that they are still “diabetic”, at least from the perspective of risk.

The video was about reducing risk to alzheimer's disease though.

Just pointing that he is not a credible source.

auspicious

I find Science-Based Medicine are dogmatic in their approach and push back a little too hard with their strongly held views.

High cholesterol is the source of many ( avoidable) diseases . Cholesterol is only found in foods that come from animals, there is no cholesterol in foods that come from plants. The body makes its own cholesterol.
Reduce cholesterol by focusing on beans, wholegrain, and fruit and vegetables.

jh79

auspicious wrote: »

I find Science-Based Medicine are dogmatic in their approach and push back a little too hard with their strongly held views.

High cholesterol is the source of many ( avoidable) diseases . Cholesterol is only found in foods that come from animals, there is no cholesterol in foods that come from plants. The body makes its own cholesterol.
Reduce cholesterol by focusing on beans, wholegrain, and fruit and vegetables.

If vegan researchers were honest about what the research says a blog like SBM wouldn't need to exist.

auspicious

SBM exists to combat quackery and alternative medicine, such as homeopathy for example, which have no basis in science. These methods should be rooted out as they are a hindrance to scientific progress and societal health.
Dr. Neal Bernard in his presentation is not espousing a plant-based diet as a cure to alzheimer disease but only as a healthy preventative measure.
High intake of saturated fat doubles the risk of this cruel disease.

jh79

auspicious wrote: »

SBM exists to combat quackery and alternative medicine, such as homeopathy for example, which have no basis in science. These methods should be rooted out as they are a hindrance to scientific progress and societal health.
Dr. Neal Bernard in his presentation is not espousing a plant-based diet as a cure to alzheimer disease but only as a healthy preventative measure.
High intake of saturated fat doubles the risk of this cruel disease.

Dr Bernard has promoted quackery in the past as the SBM link shows. Claiming that food can cure illnesses is quackery. Given he has form in making false claims on the benefits of exclusively plant based diets it might be worth checking does the research he is citing actually support his claims.

auspicious

Plants contain no cholesterol. High cholesterol has been linked to diabetes and high blood pressure.
Saturated fats contribute to alzheimers.
You'll find these claims in any medical journal.

( Harvard University public health school

The evidence is growing stronger that eating red meat (beef, pork, lamb) and processed red meat (bacon, hot dogs, deli meats) increases the risk of diabetes, even among people who consume only small amounts. ..Eating even smaller amounts of processed red meat each day—just two slices of bacon, one hot dog, or the like—increased diabetes risk by 51%

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/disease-prevention/diabetes-prevention/preventing-diabetes-full-story/#diet )

Unearthly

Work provided a presentation yesterday from the VHI promoting plant based health benefits. Hundreds tuned in. Was excellent to see.

auspicious

Philip Wollen
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TBWiwdhWhWw

auspicious

Gary Yurofsky Isreali News interview

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FE7Yf5fkTqc

auspicious

(Not an interview)
Philosophical breakdowns of the hypocrite arguments.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZOymBp1vvk

auspicious

Name the trait
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hdfmULH078c

auspicious

Sort of an interview
Claire Byrne studio debate on veganism.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IC2zMu63Nd0

auspicious

Dr. Alex Hershaft is a Holocaust survivor, animal rights activist, and co-founder and president of the Farm Animal Rights Movement (FARM). He has previously had a 30-year career in materials science, and holds a PHD in inorganic chemistry.
At about 25mins in he begins to speak about making the connection between the pile of hooves he saw in a slaughterhouse and the pile of shoes he saw in Poland.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhrbuqUy6E

gozunda

auspicious wrote: »

Dr. Alex Hershaft is a Holocaust survivor, animal rights activist, and co-founder and president of the Farm Animal Rights Movement (FARM). He has previously had a 30-year career in materials science, and holds a PHD in inorganic chemistry.
At about 25mins in he begins to speak about making the connection between the pile of hooves he saw in a slaughterhouse and the pile of shoes he saw in Poland.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhrbuqUy6E

There's no equivalence to the nazi holocaust or its origins. No one wants to commit genocide* and wipe out cattle. It remains animal farming feeds people and animal welfare laws here insist that animals are looked after and killed only after they are stunned etc.

*Correction: it would appear that farm animals are to be eradicated according to (some) vegan websites - so that there will be no cattle or any other farmed animals...

Edit. Looked up Dr. Alex Hershaft. Born in 1934 in Poland - the family did not spend time in any of the Nazi concentration camps but instead spent much of the war in hidng. He later moved to the US where he became a vegetarian many years later.

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

There's no equivalence. No one I know wants to commit genocide* and wipe out cattle as a species. It remains animal farming feeds people and animal welfare laws here insist that animals are looked after and killed only after they are stunned etc.

*Correction: it would appear that farm animals are to be eradicated according to vegan websites - so that there will be no cattle or any other farmed animals...

Edit. Looked up Dr. Alex Hershaft. Born in 1934 in Poland - the family did not spend time in any of the Nazi concentration camps but instead spent much of the war in hidng. He later moved to the US where he became a vegetarian many years later.

Comically missing the point again.

You do love trawling through those vegan websites it seems.

Do we have a wannabe vegan on our hands ?

The lady doth protest too much, me thinks.

Ten of Swords

gozunda wrote: »

*Correction: it would appear that farm animals are to be eradicated according to vegan websites

What websites did you get that from?

auspicious

Dr. Hershaft did not draw equivalent comparisons. He drew parallels, which he explicitly stated.
If you missed the point watch from 39mins in.

gozunda

Ten of Swords wrote: »

What websites did you get that from?

Just to clarify - I'm using eradicate as given here

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/eradicate

to do away with as completely as if by pulling up by the roots

A quick Google provided me with a selection of examples tbh. The general idea (from these websites) seems to be that a small number want all animal agriculture to be stopped. And as the estimated 60-70 billion animals will no longer be needed so put in sanctuaries and left die out there as they will no longer be needed or bred etc. Tbh thats some fairly big sanctuaries.

The sites I viewed also contained some fairly rabid anti-farming stuff which I'd prefer not to link to all the same ..

Its a subject which has been variously detailed / discussed here for starters. An example.

With regard to domesticated farm animals not being able to survive in the wild etc, I've discussed this with other vegans and we were all pretty much in agreement on it. Basically, domestic farm animals have been selectively bred for certain qualities that make them completely unsuitable for wild living, they are so far removed from their wild counterparts that that kindest thing to do would be to phase out breeding of these animals, care for any that are left in sanctuaries etc and let these domesticated breeds die out. 

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110149336&postcount=111

And promoted by one of the fake meat brands advocating veganism / taking animals out of the food system and ending animal agriculture.

https://plantbasednews.org/lifestyle/we-can-end-animal-agriculture-2035/

And promotion of same by some vegan advocates

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/567165/the-end-of-animal-farming-by-jacy-reese/

That said I reckon the topic would make a very interesting discussion

gozunda

auspicious wrote: »

Dr. Hershaft did not draw equivalent comparisons. He drew parallels, which he explicitly stated.
If you failed to miss the point watch from 39mins in.

I did thanks.

Btw I didn't mention any "equivalent comparisons"

This was my comment

gozunda wrote: »

There's no equivalence to the nazi holocaust or its origins. No one wants to commit genocide* and wipe out cattle. It remains animal farming feeds people and animal welfare laws here insist that animals are looked after and killed only after they are stunned etc. ...

I think you may be splitting hairs tbh.

parallel(s)

If something has a parallel, it is similar to something else, but exists or happens in a different place or at a different time

Equivalence

the fact of having the same amount, value, purpose, qualities, etc.:

There's a general equivalence between the two concepts.

Or as I detailed -There's no equivalence. I haven't changed my opinion on that either. One was intended genocide. The other is not and never has been.

You have moved from -

‘it would appear that farm animals are to be eradicated according to vegan websites - so that there will be no cattle or any other farmed animals...


To

‘ The general idea seems to be that a small number want all animal agriculture to be stopped.’

That’s a fair big move alright.

Was no harm for you to be questioned on it so.

From a typical, sweeping, matter of fact statement to quite the retreat.

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You have moved from -‘it would appear that farm animals are to be eradicated according to vegan websites - so that there will be no cattle or any other farmed animals...To The general idea seems to be that a small number want all animal agriculture to be stopped.’That’s a fair big move alright. Was no harm for you to be questioned on it so. From a typical, sweeping, matter of fact statement to quite the retreat.

Lol. Klopp. Nope. Read again. If there's is no animal agriculture then there will be no cattle or any other farmed animals. Which part of that is difficult to understand? And yes that idea thankfully is a minority view.

Btw you didn't question anyone. You used your comment as an ad hom. And to that I made no reply.

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

Lol. Klopp. Nope. Read again. If there's is no animal agriculture then there will be no cattle or any other farmed animals. Which part of that is difficult to understand? And yes that idea thankfully is a minority view.

Btw you didn't question anyone. You used your comment as an ad hom. And to that I made no reply.

Typical of you to find it funny.

We are talking about the breeding, imprisonment and slaughter of animals here but you are flat out trying to win little arguments.

I shouldn’t really give you the oxygen and I’ll try harder in future not to. You don’t care the same way I do.

Actions speak louder than words. I don’t pay anyone to nor profit from the breeding, imprisonment and slaughter of animals.

I’ll leave it there.

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Typical of you to find it funny. We are talking about the breeding, imprisonment and slaughter of animals here but you are flat out trying to win little arguments. I shouldn’t really give you the oxygen and I’ll try harder in future not to. You don’t care the same way I do. Actions speak louder than words. I don’t pay anyone to nor profit from the breeding, imprisonment and slaughter of animals.
I’ll leave it there.

No. It was your comment on my post which is funny. But no matter. And if you check you will find the topic is the guy in a video talking about the nazi Holocaust and the (vegan) idea that all farm animals be wiped out. That's what we are discussing.

If you remember - you engaged with me. You dont have to do so to just metaphorically throw the toys out of the pram.

But anyway I see we're back to the same type of track. I could just as easily claim to 'care' more than you btw. But lets leave that diversion in respect of the new charter and return to the actual discussion.

auspicious

Dietitian Answers Commonly Asked Questions About Going Vegan.


More fibre, more antioxidants, less saturated fat.
Planet welfare, human welfare and animal welfare.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2Uut8vNBfdk&t=29s

auspicious

Veganism is the opposite of extreme.
Is it more extreme to chop down a plant? Or is it more extreme to purposefully chop off an animal's head?

3 minute clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA55lVeY22Y

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OA55lVeY22Y

White Clover

auspicious wrote: »

Dietitian Answers Commonly Asked Questions About Going Vegan.


More fibre, more antioxidants, less saturated fat.
Planet welfare, human welfare and animal welfare.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2Uut8vNBfdk&t=29s

This is odd. You're agreeing with this dietician "expert" who is promoting animal welfare, while vegans are against animal welfare.
Which is it? Both positions couldn't be further apart. Just another example of the flakiness of your ideals. Hitching on to any passing bandwagon no matter how contradictory it is!