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Unusual situation, anyone any advice/insights?

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    #62
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Mod Note

    bingbong500 / 4ensic15, take it to PM.

    Folks lets not turn this into yet another discussion about social housing.


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    #63
    bingbong500
    Registered Users Posts: 113 ✭✭bingbong500


    Graham wrote: »
    Mod Note

    bingbong500 / 4ensic15, take it to PM.

    Folks lets not turn this into yet another discussion about social housing.

    Fair enough. I won't comment again. I hope you mod the comments being unfair about tenants as much as you mod those defending them, is all.


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    #64
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Mod Note

    bingbong500, you've already dragged the thread off-topic enough. Don't post on this thread again.


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    #65
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    So what does the OP do?


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    #66
    sunnysoutheast
    Registered Users Posts: 2,072 ✭✭✭sunnysoutheast


    beauf wrote: »
    So what does the OP do?

    Get a solicitor to manage the entire process. Their fees will be settled on the (eventual, inevitable) sale of the asset.


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    #67
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    sunnysoutheast wrote: »
    Get a solicitor to manage the entire process. Their fees will be settled on the (eventual, inevitable) sale of the asset.

    The solicitor should instruct a barrister with expensive knowledge of the RTB process as well.


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    #68
    mikeymouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 568 ✭✭✭mikeymouse


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    The solicitor should instruct a barrister with expensive knowledge of the RTB process as well.
    Freudian slip, 4ensic?


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    #69
    overkill602
    Registered Users Posts: 267 ✭✭overkill602


    Take legal action to get procession immediately you are not responsible or have any agreement with the tenant who is now over holding after receiving the most generous notice periods in the world is taking the piss
    Why should you be forced to be a LL, a will execution been prevented and a potential purchaser is been denied.
    the assumption that the only option is homelessness should not be an entitlement.


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    #70
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    overkill602 wrote: »
    Take legal action to get procession immediately....

    Legal action takes a long time. Thats the issue.


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    #71
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    OP, you said early on the beneficiaries won't sue you if you don't get the estate disposed of within 12 months, but if we have another property crash and the value of the estate decreases substantially due the house not being sold in a timely fashion, they might not be so kind. I was in a similar position to you 10 years ago, albeit with no tenant. The property was valued at €185k, but only made €150k.
    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    and let the beneficiaries know the state of play. They already know verbally, but I will get my solicitor to put it in writing also.

    Even though you can recoup costs (such as getting a solicitor to write a letter to the beneficiaries) from the estate, there is really no need to get a solicitor to do it. You have power of attorney for the deceased, so your words carry as much (if not more) weight. I engaged a solicitor at the very beginning who laid out what authorities I had, and never used her services again after that.


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    #72
    Old diesel
    Registered Users Posts: 5,786 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    n97 mini wrote: »
    OP, you said early on the beneficiaries won't sue you if you don't get the estate disposed of within 12 months, but if we have another property crash and the value of the estate decreases substantially due the house not being sold in a timely fashion, they might not be so kind. I was in a similar position to you 10 years ago, albeit with no tenant. The property was valued at €185k, but only made €150k.
    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Anyway, I will get legal advice, will liaise with the council, and let the beneficiaries know the state of play. They already know verbally, but I will get my solicitor to put it in writing also.

    Even though you can recoup costs (such as getting a solicitor to write a letter to the beneficiaries) from the estate, there is really no need to get a solicitor to do it. You have power of attorney for the deceased, so your words carry as much (if not more) weight. I engaged a solicitor at the very beginning who laid out what authorities I had, and never used her services again after that.

    The reason Spanish Eyes needs legal advice is that the council are effectively hindering his/her ability to carry out his/her legal obligations.

    Legal advice is thus needed in order to work out the least problematical way forward


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    #73
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Old diesel wrote: »
    Legal advice is thus needed in order to work out the least problematical way forward

    I'm not saying don't get legal advice... by all means do. I'm suggesting the OP can keep costs down by writing to the beneficiaries himself, rather than getting a solicitor to do it. In general, if the nature of the correspondence is non-adversarial, there is no need to get a solicitor involved. I've edited my original post to make it clearer.


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    #74
    ohlordy
    Registered Users Posts: 132 ✭✭ohlordy


    In the council I am employed by, the RAS admin section deal with issues like this regularly. The council take the responsibility for finding the tenant an alternative, the tenant is not involved. The council accept that if a RAS landlord is removing themselves from the scheme (in effect what is happening in this case) then they need to rehouse the tenant ahead of others on the housing list, and they do this. The council will actively try to ensure this alternative is found before the deadline date.
    I would assume that the council involved in this case do similarly and that they will move the existing tenants asap, I can't imagine that they will be left there for long. (my experience is of a larger council with a high turnover of properties, perhaps this will not be similar in a smaller council...)
    Also, if the council want to buy the property to keep the tenant in situ there is no need for vacant possession


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    #75
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,883 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    OP here. If my relative had not died, the tenant would be in situ as long as they wanted.

    Sadly things have changed, and I have sole responsibility to get the property on the market and distribute the proceeds of sale in my (kind of onerous now) role as executor.

    The tenant was given nearly six months notice (that I can remember, it was a long time anyway), and I informed the council of this the very week the notice was served. They did not seem to care one way or another, and said we will review when the notice period is up. I challenged them and said they should be sourcing alternative accommodation right now, but I got nowhere unfortunately, and realistically nothing could be done until the notice period was up.

    So fast forward, the notice period was up beginning of May. Sent email to council advising them of this, and they indicated that there would be nowhere for the tenant to go in the immediate term, and that I should open a dispute with RTB to speed things along, What!

    The RTB issue will be between me as executor/replacement landlord and the tenant. Council are not a party to this.

    So, I am sure you can see my dilemma. I will open a dispute alright, but it could take a long time to resolve, or I can just sit back and wait to see if the council finds somewhere for the tenant to move to.

    It's the start of the BH weekend, so I am going to have a break from all this and approach the council, my solicitor, and so on next week with a view to opening a dispute with RTB. I have my own life and its challenges to deal with side by side with this, so I am sure some will say that I should have opened a dispute on day one. I couldn't at that time, but am ready now with a bit of free time to get organised next week.

    It is dreadful to think that councils are advising their tenants to overhold, imagine advising something unlawful like that! But that is what is happening left right and centre.

    I will update the thread with developments, in case it might help someone else. But I reckon it will be a long and painful process no matter what.

    Thank you all for your comments.


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    #76
    Caranica
    Registered Users Posts: 10,018 ✭✭✭✭Caranica


    Can I ask why you've waited a month to open a case with the RTB, the advice given on here is to lodge a case as soon as you're entitled to. Cases can be withdrawn if circumstances change.

    Please file the case tonight, no need to wait until Tuesday.


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    #77
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,883 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Caranica wrote: »
    Can I ask why you've waited a month to open a case with the RTB, the advice given on here is to lodge a case as soon as you're entitled to. Cases can be withdrawn if circumstances change.

    Please file the case tonight, no need to wait until Tuesday.

    I have a real life going on parallel to this issue. My own life situation interrupted an immediate approach to RTB as you suggested.

    If you are ever a sole executor you will realise that it is a very onerous responsibility and sometimes being on top of it all 24/7 is nigh on impossible.

    I am with family on a bit of downtime now. Will do it all on Tuesday. Wish me luck!


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    #78
    JJJackal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,016 ✭✭✭JJJackal


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    I have a real life going on parallel to this issue. My own life situation interrupted an immediate approach to RTB as you suggested.

    If you are ever a sole executor you will realise that it is a very onerous responsibility and sometimes being on top of it all 24/7 is nigh on impossible.

    I am with family on a bit of downtime now. Will do it all on Tuesday. Wish me luck!

    Could you sell the house with the tenant in situ? (apologies if you have already answered this OP)


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    #79
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    It would be very difficult and would probably reduce the value significantly. Any sort of financing is likely to require vacant posession.


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    #80
    Old diesel
    Registered Users Posts: 5,786 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    Graham wrote: »
    It would be very difficult and would probably reduce the value significantly. Any sort of financing is likely to require vacant posession.

    The only real advantage to the OP of looking into that route is as a "to show i did everything i could" approach.

    So you might establish what the market is and the price that might be possible

    But then come back to "okay it will make significantly more as vacant procession - so keep putting pressure on councill and take RTB case" etc


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    #81
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Old diesel wrote: »
    The only real advantage to the OP of looking into that route is as a "to show i did everything i could" approach.

    So you might establish what the market is and the price that might be possible

    But then come back to "okay it will make significantly more as vacant procession - so keep putting pressure on councill and take RTB case" etc

    It is well recognised that houses with vacant possession sell for more than houses without. There is no need for wasting time and money marketing the house with a tenant in situ. If anything, it could backfire with the o/p accused of not allowing the tenant peaceful enjoyment. When there is a determination Order that the tenant vacate and the sherrif is on the way, the council will act.


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    #82
    JJJackal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,016 ✭✭✭JJJackal


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    It is well recognised that houses with vacant possession sell for more than houses without. There is no need for wasting time and money marketing the house with a tenant in situ. If anything, it could backfire with the o/p accused of not allowing the tenant peaceful enjoyment. When there is a determination Order that the tenant vacate and the sherrif is on the way, the council will act.

    Re selling not vacant - this situation is different to most people who sell a house.

    The OP is executor of a will. If I wanted to sell my house (and if I had house rented) I would want top dollar - so vacant sale would be a must.

    In this situation, there may be 1, 10, 20 people due a share of the proceeds. They may be willing to take less for a quick sale, who knows? The executor (OP) may wish to discharge her duty as efficiently as possible. Tenant maybe happy to let people view if she thinks she can stay longer. Council are paying the rent so limited risk of default in rent. If it was put for sale perhaps the council would try to buy it.

    Just curious re OP's position?


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    #83
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    JJJackal wrote: »
    Re selling not vacant - this situation is different to most people who sell a house.

    The OP is executor of a will. If I wanted to sell my house (and if I had house rented) I would want top dollar - so vacant sale would be a must.

    In this situation, there may be 1, 10, 20 people due a share of the proceeds. They may be willing to take less for a quick sale, who knows? The executor (OP) may wish to discharge her duty as efficiently as possible. Tenant maybe happy to let people view if she thinks she can stay longer. Council are paying the rent so limited risk of default in rent. If it was put for sale perhaps the council would try to buy it.

    Just curious re OP's position?

    A lot of ifs there. If the beneficiaries are willing to take a lower price, if the tenant will allow viewings, if the Council would buy.
    Most beneficiaries want the maximum value, most tenants aren't happe to facilitate viewings and surveys etc and Councils will only buy with vacant possession.
    The real world scenario calls for the o/p to get rid of the tenant and sell. pronto.


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    #84
    mikeymouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 568 ✭✭✭mikeymouse


    ohlordy wrote: »
    In the council I am employed by, the RAS admin section deal with issues like this regularly. The council take the responsibility for finding the tenant an alternative, the tenant is not involved. The council accept that if a RAS landlord is removing themselves from the scheme (in effect what is happening in this case) then they need to rehouse the tenant ahead of others on the housing list, and they do this. The council will actively try to ensure this alternative is found before the deadline date.
    I would assume that the council involved in this case do similarly and that they will move the existing tenants asap, I can't imagine that they will be left there for long. (my experience is of a larger council with a high turnover of properties, perhaps this will not be similar in a smaller council...)
    Also, if the council want to buy the property to keep the tenant in situ there is no need for vacant possession
    4ensic15 wrote: »
    A lot of ifs there. If the beneficiaries are willing to take a lower price, if the tenant will allow viewings, if the Council would buy.
    Most beneficiaries want the maximum value, most tenants aren't happe to facilitate viewings and surveys etc and Councils will only buy with vacant possession.
    The real world scenario calls for the o/p to get rid of the tenant and sell. pronto.

    So, I wonder which it is?


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    #85
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    mikeymouse wrote: »
    So, I wonder which it is?

    There have been posts on here where the council would not buy a property in which they had installed a tenant, without vacant possession. When the Council is buying the purchase will be handled by its law agent. they simply won't want the hassle of buying with a tenant and being potentially stuck legally in the future.


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    #86
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,883 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    OP here, I said I would update so here we go!

    Visited council. They washed their hands of it, as I suspected. They did say that opening a dispute (when determination order happens), will push the tenant up the list for re housing. Huh.

    So I have now opened a dispute with RTB going straight for adjudication and ignoring mediation.

    It is going to be a bit of process here I reckon, but let us see what happens, it is the only option open to me right now. I have taken legal advice also, but they advised me to open the dispute as executor in the first instance, and they will step in if there are any unforeseen issues.

    What a nightmare. But hopefully it will all work out in the end. Beneficiaries have been informed and they understand the process, whew! But are asking how long this will take. How long is a piece of string really?

    The big issue is the timeframe. I don't know, and RTB can give no estimate to me either.

    If, and a big if, it is sorted say in eight months time or whatever, I then have to get the place sorted for sale, put it up for sale, and to my mind, prices are stabilising a bit now. That's not my problem, but you can imagine the beneficiaries having a bit of a moan.

    Will keep the thread updated with progress. And thanks to all who replied and helped.


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    #87
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,883 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Hi OP here. I thought I would update you all again, in case anyone is in the same position as I was.

    So I opened a dispute with RTB, it was easy and quick enough to be fair. And then had a hearing where the tenant was crying and all that, telling me I was evicting her onto the streets.

    I counterracted and asked if she realised that this process would actually mean that the council, in time would re house her on the basis of a Determination Order. Silence.

    There was a solicitor present from RTB who to my astonishment agreed with me regarding the process! Well just nodded agreement to the tenants.

    Anyway we got a Determination Order and the tenant supplied it to the Council. Within two months she was rehoused where she wanted to be beside her mother and other family, I kid you not!

    I don't care. The house is on the market now and is hopefully going to be sold soon and the beneficiaries will get what their relative wanted them to get.

    All in all, it took seven months to evict, or should I say get the house back! Which was not too bad really, reading some horror stories.

    Onwards and upwards. I am so relieved. It is up to the Estate Agent now, and I can sit back at last, having done everything I could so far.

    I would NEVER let a house out in Ireland even if I could. It is just too difficult to get your property back, and I as executor was the de facto owner of that property.

    Ask me anything!


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    #88
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Hi OP here. I thought I would update you all again, in case anyone is in the same position as I was.

    So I opened a dispute with RTB, it was easy and quick enough to be fair. And then had a hearing where the tenant was crying and all that, telling me I was evicting her onto the streets.

    I counterracted and asked if she realised that this process would actually mean that the council, in time would re house her on the basis of a Determination Order. Silence.

    There was a solicitor present from RTB who to my astonishment agreed with me regarding the process! Well just nodded agreement to the tenants.

    Anyway we got a Determination Order and the tenant supplied it to the Council. Within two months she was rehoused where she wanted to be beside her mother and other family, I kid you not!

    I don't care. The house is on the market now and is hopefully going to be sold soon and the beneficiaries will get what their relative wanted them to get.

    All in all, it took seven months to evict, or should I say get the house back! Which was not too bad really, reading some horror stories.

    Onwards and upwards. I am so relieved. It is up to the Estate Agent now, and I can sit back at last, having done everything I could so far.

    I would NEVER let a house out in Ireland even if I could. It is just too difficult to get your property back, and I as executor was the de facto owner of that property.

    Ask me anything!


    And they say on here been a landlord is a one way street to riches. The reality is above very much different.


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    #89
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,883 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    handlemaster wrote: »
    And they say on here been a landlord is a one way street to riches. The reality is above very much different.

    To be fair I was not the landlord but the executor, which put me in place of the LL..

    It was a tough process, not designed to make it easy for the property owner by any stretch. Well I was standing in for the deceased property owner as executor.

    But I have to say in fairness, it worked out for me relatively quickly in the end judging from other stories.

    Waiting for offers on the house now! God it was a long road.


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    #90
    Peter File
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭Peter File


    How long did you have to wait to get vacant possession after the PRTB found in your favour?


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    #91
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,883 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Peter File wrote: »
    How long did you have to wait to get vacant possession after the PRTB found in your favour?

    Until Council found a house for the tenant after the Determination Order was served. So two months after Determination Order AFAIR, which wasn't that bad really given some of the stories I have read. But took a few months prior to get to that point has to be said.

    It might be different if one is not involved with RAS as I was. Turned out not to be the worst situation in the end. But it took time just the same.

    I don't know how it would work for a private tenant though. Sorry


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