Irish Rail Issue Tender for 600 Electric / Battery Carriages

Stephen15

Qrt wrote: »

I mean driver-operated ones, like how a bus driver sees someone in a wheelchair and knows to deploy the ramp.

Potentially they could be installed but there could be some added cost as platforms could have to be realigned to allow a ramp to be deployed and there's also the issue that the driver would probably have to be let known in advance that a wheelchair user wishes to board.

Of course the best situation would be if the new trains bought had doors that were level with the edge of platform meaning wheelchair users could board without the need for a ramp like the Luas and work was done to make sure all platforms were the same height.

L1011

That also needs straight platform edges which would require moving many stations entirely. So completely unfeasible

Stephen15

L1011 wrote: »

That also needs straight platform edges which would require moving many stations entirely. So completely unfeasible

Fair enough but they could do it with some stations where feasible and mark them on the map.

Jamie2k9

Its not possible because:

Storing a ramp under the step has no room and a fold up underneath isn't possible because platform would stop it opening.

Storing a ramp inside (like DB) isn't possible because its to high and would never reach the ground.

There is the platform argument plus you would do well to find a platform to be the exact same level the next one.

kc56

Aligning steps with the platform like on the Luas isn't feasible. There must be enough clearance for a train passing at 100mph with no possibility of contact being made. Allowance must be made for swaying and track movements. Close alignments might be possible on single use commuter lines such as metros where retractible step could be used.

Compared to the Continent, accessibility here is much better. Many mainline continental platforms are quite low and there are 3-4 steps up to the carriages. A ramp would not be at all feasible.

Markcheese

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Its not possible because:

Storing a ramp under the step has no room and a fold up underneath isn't possible because platform would stop it opening.

Storing a ramp inside (like DB) isn't possible because its to high and would never reach the ground.

There is the platform argument plus you would do well to find a platform to be the exact same level the next one.

Is there a reason why the platforms are all different heights? Would have thought they would have a standard spec, (the step up to the train at Midleton is fairly high... And that's not a historical issue)

Jamie2k9

Markcheese wrote: »

Is there a reason why the platforms are all different heights? Would have thought they would have a standard spec, (the step up to the train at Midleton is fairly high... And that's not a historical issue)

Many reasons different people building, ground subsidence etc. Those who travel on Luas will notice the difference as well.

They work within certain limits as all rolling stock will be slightly different.

bk

In Lisbon they have permanent wheelchair ramps built into the platforms, very handy for booth wheelchair users and buggy users:



In Germany and other countries, the wheelchair ramp is simply carried in the drivers cabin. Wheelchair users wait in a designated location near the front of the train, if a driver sees a wheelchair user, the driver gets out and uses the ramp, like this:

See at 1:30mins:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43RagxfjchM

It isn't rocket science.

Markcheese

bk wrote: »

In Lisbon they have permanent wheelchair ramps built into the platforms, very handy for booth wheelchair users and buggy users:



In Germany and other countries, the wheelchair ramp is simply carried in the drivers cabin. Wheelchair users wait in a designated location near the front of the train, if a driver sees a wheelchair user, the driver gets out and uses the ramp, like this:

See at 1:30mins:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43RagxfjchM

It isn't rocket science.

As you say, just having a wheelchair bay at the front of the platform ( and ramp at that door) , nearest the driver is probably the simplist, effective, cheapest, and immediate change that IE could make..

loyatemu

Markcheese wrote: »

As you say, just having a wheelchair bay at the front of the platform ( and ramp at that door) , nearest the driver is probably the simplist, effective, cheapest, and immediate change that IE could make..

as mentioned in previous posts, Irish Rails network is very non-standardised. The trains are all different lengths, have slightly different door-heights, stop in different places on the platform, many of the platforms are curved which results in large gaps at the doors etc.

Markcheese

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Many reasons different people building, ground subsidence etc. Those who travel on Luas will notice the difference as well.

They work within certain limits as all rolling stock will be slightly different.

But they're building to a design spec.overseen by engineers .. I doubt theres that much subsidence (or the whole station'd collapse)

Edit... Midleton station (that I was giving out about) is an old station, refurbed when the line was reopened...i assume there'd have been issues on dropping the track level. And if the platform got raised it would have been higher that the station buildings...
It does seem a bit bonkers to have a modern standard, wheelchair access station, (with lifts Ect..) and an Unusually high step up to the train...

bk

loyatemu wrote: »

as mentioned in previous posts, Irish Rails network is very non-standardised. The trains are all different lengths, have slightly different door-heights, stop in different places on the platform, many of the platforms are curved which results in large gaps at the doors etc.

It really shouldn't take an IR driver much effort to line up with a ramp at each station like in Lisbon. Just put the ramp location at the end of the platform where the longest train stops and have all drivers line up with that.

It would also be good for able bodied passengers as it gives more certainty as to where they can board, a complaint many have with random stopping places of current trains.

L1011

Platform ramp still won't meet the train on a curved platform though

bk

L1011 wrote: »

Platform ramp still won't meet the train on a curved platform though

Platform ramp with it's own automatic extending platform or vice versa.

Drivers just doing it themselves like the video I showed above is probably easiest.

Stephen15

Having the drivers put out a ramp would require a union agreement which is something easier said than done if you look at how long it took to implement 10 minute Darts.

L1011

The drivers are the ones who put out a ramp at unmanned stations already - 29000 and 22000 carry a ramp at least, rarely get other types to see those.

Stephen15

L1011 wrote: »

The drivers are the ones who put out a ramp at unmanned stations already - 29000 and 22000 carry a ramp at least, rarely get other types to see those.

Yeah but they would be notified in advance it would a bit different for them if it was a turn up and go service. Also afaik DART drivers are under different agreements with IE than loco/diesel drivers and from what I gather more militant than other grades.

Jamie2k9

Drivers reluctantly do it like everything! Don't get me wrong there are some great ones but forcing it on them would require a few days strike and maybe a pay rise.

I don't really think they should have to do it all the time but should as required like today even with little or no notice.

loyatemu

bk wrote: »

It really shouldn't take an IR driver much effort to line up with a ramp at each station like in Lisbon. Just put the ramp location at the end of the platform where the longest train stops and have all drivers line up with that.

It would also be good for able bodied passengers as it gives more certainty as to where they can board, a complaint many have with random stopping places of current trains.

platforms at Pearse can take a 10-car train, having 2 or 3-car sets pulling right to the end at the opposite end to the station entrance is not progress. IE have put signs in most of the Dart station to show drivers of short trains where to stop so they're in the middle of the platform (driver adherence to these signs is patchy though).

prinzeugen

bk wrote: »

It really shouldn't take an IR driver much effort to line up with a ramp at each station like in Lisbon. Just put the ramp location at the end of the platform where the longest train stops and have all drivers line up with that.

It would also be good for able bodied passengers as it gives more certainty as to where they can board, a complaint many have with random stopping places of current trains.

A train might be made up of several units with only one "accessible" coach on each unit. They will never be in the same place.

The driver could line up that door for the ramp but they might have to be a coach length past the end of the platform. Trains have stop boards anyway for DOO.

Look at the end of a platform and you will see "8 car stop" etc. They must stop there to see the mirrors/platform so they know its safe to close the doors and move. There are starting signals etc also.

bk

Easy solution, multiple ramps, one at the front of each stopping location for different length of train and an indicator on the arrivals board of which platform to use for each approaching train.

Not perfect, but better then 4 hours.

Of course these suggestions are all just if you want to avoid the "easier" approach of having drivers do it.

devnull

The NTA by the end of the quarter are now scheduled to complete a full fleet assessment in order to develop a fleet strategy going forward in addition to the tender for future units.

Latest timeframes on the tender is that they expect to award the framework contract for the bi-mode and electric fleet by mid 2020 with the first deliveries to take place by the end of 2023.

Rrailway orders for the lines to Maynooth, Celbridge and Drogehda will be put in by the end of 2021 with electrification work scheduled to begin in January 2023 and completed by the end of 2027.

Jamie2k9

devnull wrote: »

The NTA by the end of the quarter are now scheduled to complete a full fleet assessment in order to develop a fleet strategy going forward in addition to the tender for future units.

Latest timeframes on the tender is that they expect to award the framework contract for the bi-mode and electric fleet by mid 2020 with the first deliveries to take place by the end of 2023.

Rrailway orders for the lines to Maynooth, Celbridge and Drogehda will be put in by the end of 2021 with electrification work scheduled to begin in January 2023 and completed by the end of 2027.

So electrification delayed again...

Qrt

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

So electrification delayed again...

The DART Expansion Programme has always been scheduled for completion in 2027, no? Unless I'm mistaken, I assume electrification is the last piece in the puzzle provided you have the rolling stock?

L1011

Railway orders in 2019, delivery for 2023 or so was suggested at one point not that long ago.

Jamie2k9

I guess we know why they are wasting a ton of money on batteries for new trains. 15 year lifespan, so lots of time to put it on the long finger again :rolleyes:

XPS_Zero

Can someone explain why it's going to take EIGHT YEARS to put some power lines up???

IE 222

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Can someone explain why it's going to take EIGHT YEARS to put some power lines up???

Works will take 5 years to complete fully. I'd expect it will open in phases meaning 1 route (Drogheada - Malahide been the easiest) could potentially open in 2024/25 sometime instead of working on small pockets all over the place to open all at the same time.

IE 222

In regards of wheelchairs, surely a ramp can be engineered easily enough into a unit that can slide out from under the units floor onto the platform in this day age. A simple painted box on the platform for users to know were to wait will suffice. The ramp just needs to extend far enough to account for gaps caused by curves. Raise the floor slightly to allow the ramp to clear all platforms or lower the platform height in the wheelchair loading area at stations where issues will arise.

XPS_Zero

IE 222 wrote: »

In regards of wheelchairs, surely a ramp can be engineered easily enough into a unit that can slide out from under the units floor onto the platform in this day age. A simple painted box on the platform for users to know were to wait will suffice. The ramp just needs to extend far enough to account for gaps caused by curves. Raise the floor slightly to allow the ramp to clear all platforms or lower the platform height in the wheelchair loading area at stations where issues will arise.

iT'S already been explained why it can't on here a few times, I used to think the same as you re: ramps. However when you account for different curves in the platform different train types and the fact that some people need physical help to mount the ramp it can't be done