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Irish Rail Issue Tender for 600 Electric / Battery Carriages

  • 27-05-2019 12:07pm
    #1
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭ devnull


    This is now official:
    https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/tender-process-begins-for-the-largest-and-greenest-fleet-order-in-irish-public-transport-history/
    The process to order the largest and greenest fleet in Irish public transport history gets underway today as Iarnród Éireann, supported by the National Transport Authority (NTA), seeks expressions of interest from global train manufacturers for up to 600 electric / battery-electric powered carriages over a 10-year timescale.

    DART Expansion, a €2 billion investment under Project Ireland 2040, will see the capacity of the rail network transformed through investment in up to 300 new carriages, electrification of lines to Maynooth, M3 Parkway, Hazelhatch and Drogheda, and key infrastructure works to allow more trains to operate in the Greater Dublin Area.

    However, the ambitious tender for up to 600 carriages allows for the planned fleet expansion, replacement of the original DART fleet (the 76-carriage fleet will be almost 45 years old at the end of the current National Development Plan in 2027) and other carriages, and ensure that the framework is in place for more carriages to be ordered if further growth in demand occurs.

    Today’s notice in the Official Journal of the European Union (OJEU) and on etenders is expected to attract the interest of virtually every major global train manufacturer, such is its scale. It will ensure customers on our rail network benefit from up-to-date facilities and technology, and that there are scale benefits in the competitive tendering for the NTA-funded investment. Please see full details here at etenders.

    While electricity-powered trains are expected to make up the overwhelming majority of train orders, the tender process is also providing for a possible first tranche of battery-electric hybrid trains. This is to ensure that, should funding or planning processes see the electrification of the first of the lines be completed beyond 2024, that new trains will be available from that date to meet the surging demand from commuters.

    However, the overall order will see the Greater Dublin Area (GDA) total rail fleet, and up to 80% of all heavy rail journeys in Ireland, set for a potentially emissions-free future, as well as generating reductions in noise, and cost savings in train operations.

    The full national network will benefit from this investment, with existing Intercity and Commuter trains currently utilised to meet GDA-demand then available to boost frequency and capacity nationwide.

    As well as this major order, Iarnród Éireann and the NTA are progressing shorter-term options to meet record demand on Ireland’s railways. With 47.9 million journeys in 2018, and capacity requirements becoming acute at peak times, this includes:

    - Negotiations are underway between Iarnród Éireann and its supplier seeking to agree an order for at least 41 extra Intercity railcar carriages, adding to an existing fleet of 234 vehicles, to enter service from late 2021

    - A tender process is underway by the NTA for the possible purchase or lease of pre-owned trains, which also would involve modifications to fleet, particularly as Ireland’s track gauge differs from that of other railways.

    Chief Executive Officer of the National Transport Authority, Anne Graham said:

    “The procurement of this fleet is the first step in the delivery of Dart Expansion, a programme that will attract some €2b in NTA funding in the coming decades.

    The expansion of Dart services is a key part of both the Transport Strategy for the Greater Dublin Area, 2016-2035, and Project Ireland 2040. It is also a critical element in the effort to reduce Ireland’s greenhouse gas emissions.

    The recent Oireachtas Climate Action Committee report recommended that the public transport elements of Project Ireland 2040 be prioritised.

    The Committee called for the speedy delivery of public transport investment to encourage more people to choose sustainable modes and leave the car behind.

    Today’s announcement represents a significant step in that direction.”


    Chief Executive of Iarnród Éireann, Jim Meade said:
    “The commencement of the tender process for our new fleet is the first major step in the DART expansion project, which will revolutionise public transport in the greater Dublin area, providing an even more frequent and environmentally sustainable commuting option for new and existing communities.

    It will also provide greater capacity for Intercity and regional commuter services as carriages currently utilised in the greater Dublin area will become available for other services.”


«1345

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,933 ✭✭✭ GM228


    The decision (made recently by the NTA) to go battery-electric came as somewhat of a surprise because up to very recently the NTA/IE/DOT were exploring a majority diesel-electric phase 1 order option.

    Now the NTA want a majority pure electric phase 1 order.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,586 ✭✭✭✭ end of the road


    this is good news and is long over due.

    julian the journalist asange is innocent, free julian the journalist.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,484 ✭✭✭✭ Jamie2k9


    Anyone want to speculate if this was planned for release today or Government rolling out the PR machine to counteract the alleged "green wave".

    Wasting time and money on battery's, not needed unless they plan to delay projects...


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,933 ✭✭✭ GM228


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Anyone want to speculate if this was planned for release today or Government rolling out the PR machine to counteract the alleged "green wave".

    Wasting time and money on battery's, not needed unless they plan to delay projects...

    It's coincidence, especially considering the OJEU would have been notified before this whole "green wave".

    The tender was been a WIP for several months and was due to be issued in Q1 but got delayed as the future fleet assessment ran several months behind schedule.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭ devnull


    It'll be clear that Stadler will probably be putting a FLIRT variant model forward for this and Bombardier have been talking about a similar project being put forward for potential contests in the UK.

    I'd be curious if Siemens would be ready to put an offer forward, as they are currently experimenting with the Desiro ML Eco prototype for OBB in Austria.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭ RadarControl


    It is actually not the big announcement that it appears to be on the surface. If we assume 8 carriages per train it is only 75 trains. They are to be delivered from 2023. Some sort of extra capacity is needed now. I commute daily from Newbridge and Friday morning is the only one where capacity meets the demand.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭ IE 222


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Anyone want to speculate if this was planned for release today or Government rolling out the PR machine to counteract the alleged "green wave".

    Wasting time and money on battery's, not needed unless they plan to delay projects...

    I presume the battery allows them to run trains beyond the electrified sections of the network such as Dundalk, Portlaoise, Athlone, Carlow, Mullingar, Gorey and possibly run smaller intercity routes such as Wexford if they install charging point down there.

    I'm not up to date with battery technology but I'm guessing they'll get 150-250km range beyond electrified sections.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,484 ✭✭✭✭ Jamie2k9


    devnull wrote: »
    It'll be clear that Stadler will probably be putting a FLIRT variant model forward for this and Bombardier have been talking about a similar project being put forward for potential contests in the UK.

    I'd be curious if Siemens would be ready to put an offer forward, as they are currently experimenting with the Desiro ML Eco prototype for OBB in Austria.

    Whoever puts an offer forward will be taking a major gamble.

    Hyundai Rotem might be a potential bidder. Giving there existing record with the ICRs they could be in a strong position with any bid.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,484 ✭✭✭✭ Jamie2k9


    IE 222 wrote: »
    I presume the battery allows them to run trains beyond the electrified sections of the network such as Dundalk, Portlaoise, Athlone, Carlow, Mullingar, Gorey and possibly run smaller intercity routes such as Wexford if they install charging point down there.

    I'm not up to date with battery technology but I'm guessing they'll get 150-250km range beyond electrified sections.

    Not a hope of such battery range, just impossible right now. I get running a little extra on battery but its not viable without adding significant weight.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,933 ✭✭✭ GM228


    IE 222 wrote: »
    I presume the battery allows them to run trains beyond the electrified sections of the network such as Dundalk, Portlaoise, Athlone, Carlow, Mullingar, Gorey and possibly run smaller intercity routes such as Wexford if they install charging point down there.

    I'm not up to date with battery technology but I'm guessing they'll get 150-250km range beyond electrified sections.

    That was the plan when the order was to be diesel-electric, but now the NTA wants battery-electric so don't hold your breath for a BMU outside the GDA.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Whoever puts an offer forward will be taking a major gamble.

    Hyundai Rotem might be a potential bidder. Giving there existing record with the ICRs they could be in a strong position with any bid.

    Don't forget CAF and Alstom aswell. I wonder will there be different specs for the orders with some being a more basic spec for example for Bray to Howth workings and more a higher spec for longer distance stuff like Kildare/Newbridge commuters and Balbriggan and Drigheda services.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭ IE 222


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Not a hope of such battery range, just impossible right now. I get running a little extra on battery but its not viable without adding significant weight.

    Bombardier have a 100km battery range launching this year up from 40km from the 1st prototype. Heavier yes but by the time this become available I'm the technology will advance further. Charging points at outer stations should enable the possibilities.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 21,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    It is actually not the big announcement that it appears to be on the surface. If we assume 8 carriages per train it is only 75 trains. They are to be delivered from 2023. Some sort of extra capacity is needed now. I commute daily from Newbridge and Friday morning is the only one where capacity meets the demand.

    I wouldn't assume 8 carriages per train. A lot of the routes these will end up on are likely to be 4 or 6 sets, just more frequent.

    Consider this, there are only 134 DART carriages and only 148 commuter DMU's, for a total of just 282 carriages!

    So 600 carriages would more then double the DART+Commuter fleet, that is absolutely massive news.

    Of course I'm leaving the ICR's out of the above numbers, as they currently get abused as commuter trains. They are only a little over 10 years old, so no reason to think that they are going anywhere. We will likely continue to use them for another 30 years. They are likely just going to transfer to intercity services where they belong.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    If your talking about Dublin don't forget some of those commuter sets are based in Cork and Limerick also that may or may not include the DART 8200 class and 2700 class both currently in storage. I presume any new sets like any other modern trains would be open plan layout rather than individual cars so you could have two sets joined together to form the equivalent of an eight car set.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    With regards to spec. I hope they go for something which maximises capacity as much as possible especially standing capacity for DART work. That's why I think It would be a good idea to have two specs one for DART and inner suburban work and the other for longer distance work

    I would hope the trains would be open carriage layout similar to most of the new trains being purchased in the UK and would imagine they will be. With regards to interior spec a DART spec would be best with lots of standing room they could go with Metro style bench seating on the DARTs which would really maximise standing room like on the London Overground or they could go with a mixture of Metro style seating and conventional train seating.

    I wonder what type of seating will be used will it be the infamous ironing board seats that are in use on the new trains in England or more comfortable seating. Although I would already argue that the seating on the 8500 class Dart are like ironing boards. They could go for bus style low back seats on a DART spec and omwouldnt see the issue to be fair.

    A higher longer distance spec should have more high back conventional seating that is comfortable and less metro or bus sstyle seating aswell as toilets and perhaps even dedicated provision for bikes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭ prinzeugen


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Bombardier have a 100km battery range launching this year up from 40km from the 1st prototype. Heavier yes but by the time this become available I'm the technology will advance further. Charging points at outer stations should enable the possibilities.

    Bombardier, Alstolm and Siemens dont really do bespoke trains anymore. They are more like car/van manufacturers. "You can have a variation of this current model".

    CAF, Stadler & even Talgo would be the most likely European contenders.

    Battery powered passenger trains are still a bit away yet. The range and reliably is just not there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,217 ✭✭✭ Thrashssacre


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Bombardier, Alstolm and Siemens dont really do bespoke trains anymore. They are more like car/van manufacturers. "You can have a variation of this current model".

    CAF, Stadler & even Talgo would be the most likely European contenders.

    Battery powered passenger trains are still a bit away yet. The range and reliably is just not there.

    Have to say I’d love if irish rail bought some talgo sets they look very smart and were a joy to ride on when I was in Spain. Can’t see it happening though a lot of the networks talgo sets run on are very new so I’m not sure how they’d perform on our old infrastructure. India recently rejected them for some reason.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    I wonder would PESA from Poland or Skoda Transportation be interested in submitting a tender too. The Spanish manufacturers like CAF and Talgo as you mentioned may be at a bit of an advantage due their history of building trains to a different gauge.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,217 ✭✭✭ Thrashssacre


    Apparently the sets need to be between 160 and 168 meters and be available to have sets half of that size. Does anyone know what the measurement of full length ircs and 29000 classes are now?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,173 ✭✭✭✭ Captain Chaos


    Apparently the sets need to be between 160 and 168 meters and be available to have sets half of that size. Does anyone know what the measurement of full length ircs and 29000 classes are now?

    A 29k set (4 car) is around 82m so the same size really.
    An ICR 4 piece is about 93m, a 3 piece is 70m.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,933 ✭✭✭ GM228


    bk wrote: »
    I wouldn't assume 8 carriages per train. A lot of the routes these will end up on are likely to be 4 or 6 sets, just more frequent.

    Consider this, there are only 134 DART carriages and only 148 commuter DMU's, for a total of just 282 carriages!

    So 600 carriages would more then double the DART+Commuter fleet, that is absolutely massive news.

    Of course I'm leaving the ICR's out of the above numbers, as they currently get abused as commuter trains. They are only a little over 10 years old, so no reason to think that they are going anywhere. We will likely continue to use them for another 30 years. They are likely just going to transfer to intercity services where they belong.
    Stephen15 wrote: »
    If your talking about Dublin don't forget some of those commuter sets are based in Cork and Limerick also that may or may not include the DART 8200 class and 2700 class both currently in storage. I presume any new sets like any other modern trains would be open plan layout rather than individual cars so you could have two sets joined together to form the equivalent of an eight car set.

    This should give a clearer picture of the current fleet and displacement.

    Diesel Commuter Fleet
    Class|In Service| Out of Service
    2600 | 16 | 1
    2700 | 0 | 27
    2800 | 20 | 0
    22000* | 30 | -
    29000 | 116 | 0
    *Represents actual number of 22000 assigned to Commuter work within the GDA on a daily basis

    Total Diesel Fleet: 210
    Total in store: 28
    Total in service outside the GDA: 36
    Total in service within the GDA: 146

    Electric Commuter Fleet
    Class|In Service| Out of Service
    8100 | 76 | 0
    8200 | 0 | 10
    85XX | 68 | 0

    Total Electric Fleet: 154
    Total in store: 10
    Total in service outside the GDA: 0
    Total in service within the GDA: 144

    Total Commuter Fleet: 364
    Total in store: 38
    Total in service outside the GDA: 36
    Total in service within the GDA: 290

    Assuming the full 600 are ordered that will lead to a 107% fleet increase in the GDA.

    The 22000s currently assigned to Commuter work will be release back to IC work which along with the 41 extra centre cars will lead to a 35% increase in the IC fleet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,058 ✭✭✭ Emme


    The batteries won't go far the way Irish Rail load trains to the max and many commuters are obese from stuffing their faces with Supermacs and other carb laden rubbish on sale at train stations - more strain on the batteries. Then there's tourists bringing heavy cases on board.

    From what I can see electric carriages will only slow the system down even more and force commuters to spend longer on the train getting to and from work. Also they would want to get their basics such as the signalling system right before they move on to electric carriages.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 61,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    Emme wrote: »
    From what I can see electric carriages will only slow the system down even more and force commuters to spend longer on the train getting to and from work. Also they would want to get their basics such as the signalling system right before they move on to electric carriages.

    Electric trains will be faster than diesel on frequently stopping services or lines with frequent speed limit changes; due to better acceleration and later braking

    Which describes all the lines in scope; especially Maynooth.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,502 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu


    GM228 wrote: »

    Assuming the full 600 are ordered that will lead to a 107% fleet increase in the GDA.


    that's over the existing fleet of 290? Many of those will still be functional though - the LHB Darts will be retired but the other Darts and 29000 series presumably have some life left in them (hopefully they can refurb the Japanese Darts and install seats that aren't designed for hobbits).


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,933 ✭✭✭ GM228


    loyatemu wrote: »
    that's over the existing fleet of 290? Many of those will still be functional though - the LHB Darts will be retired but the other Darts and 29000 series presumably have some life left in them (hopefully they can refurb the Japanese Darts and install seats that aren't designed for hobbits).

    The 29000s will eventually be replacing the 2600 and 2800 fleet in Cork and Limerick. The 85XXs are due mid life work soon, but I don't think they will enjoy the same lifespan as the 8100s.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,173 ✭✭✭✭ Captain Chaos


    GM228 wrote: »
    The 85XXs are due mid life work soon, but I don't think they will enjoy the same lifespan as the 8100s.

    The 8500/10/20s are still very reliable though and in good order. I remember the state the 8100s were let get into before they were shipped off for works and the amount of failures was very bad from personal experience.

    The 29ks are aging rapidly due to their heavy use. I'd say the 2800 fleet and maybe even the 2600s will out last them. The 29k fleet needs alot of work and mid life refub program right now if they was any funding and spare units to cover for them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,502 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu


    GM228 wrote: »
    The 29000s will eventually be replacing the 2600 and 2800 fleet in Cork and Limerick. The 85XXs are due mid life work soon, but I don't think they will enjoy the same lifespan as the 8100s.

    the recently release plan for Cork includes electrification doesn't it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,173 ✭✭✭✭ Captain Chaos


    loyatemu wrote: »
    the recently release plan for Cork includes electrification doesn't it?

    Yes but decades away in reality. Stop gap DMUs will most likely be needed before any sort of OHLE is installed in the Cork area.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,484 ✭✭✭✭ Jamie2k9


    GM228 wrote: »
    This should give a clearer picture of the current fleet and displacement.

    Diesel Commuter Fleet
    Class|In Service| Out of Service
    2600 | 16 | 1
    2700 | 0 | 27
    2800 | 20 | 0
    22000* | 30 | -
    29000 | 116 | 0
    *Represents actual number of 22000 assigned to Commuter work within the GDA on a daily basis

    Total Diesel Fleet: 210
    Total in store: 28
    Total in service outside the GDA: 36
    Total in service within the GDA: 146

    Electric Commuter Fleet
    Class|In Service| Out of Service
    8100 | 76 | 0
    8200 | 0 | 10
    85XX | 68 | 0

    Total Electric Fleet: 154
    Total in store: 10
    Total in service outside the GDA: 0
    Total in service within the GDA: 144

    Total Commuter Fleet: 364
    Total in store: 38
    Total in service outside the GDA: 36
    Total in service within the GDA: 290

    Assuming the full 600 are ordered that will lead to a 107% fleet increase in the GDA.

    The 22000s currently assigned to Commuter work will be release back to IC work which along with the 41 extra centre cars will lead to a 35% increase in the IC fleet.

    So over 50% of ICRs doing commuter work. Are GDA figures including Sligo/Rosslare services?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,933 ✭✭✭ GM228


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    So over 50% of ICRs doing commuter work. Are GDA figures including Sligo/Rosslare services?

    50%, not sure where you got that from?

    12% of the ICR fleet is assigned to Commuter work (which includes the GCD services ).

    Only 1 x 29000 set is assigned 1 x return to Rosslare daily and 2x29000 sets to the Sligo on a Friday only, they work Commuter services in between.


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