Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

EKRIUQ

i'm just loving this next chapter of Brexit, the one man who wouldn't shut up and had all the answers is now the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. How long will his honeymoon last.

I'm looking forward to how the press is going to react to him often people are excused thing when there on the onside shouting in, now that he has the driving seat I want to see where he's going to go.

Shelga

Can parliament compel Johnson to ask for an extension? Or will that not happen, without a specific reason?

More likely, I suppose, is that a GE will happen after a vote of no confidence in the government. Who actually asks for the extension in that case?

ancapailldorcha

Shelga wrote: »

Can parliament compel Johnson to ask for an extension? Or will that not happen, without a specific reason?

More likely, I suppose, is that a GE will happen after a vote of no confidence in the government. Who actually asks for the extension in that case?

It can. It did so before with May. Parliament here is sovereign, not the people or the Prime Minister.

Adamcp898

Not sure I get these comparisons between Trump and BoJo that we're seeing. I mean one comes from a political dynasty with links to the aristocracy going back generations and the other is a second generation immigrant. You could argue that one joined the political ruling class because it was exactly what was expected of him whereas the other entered politics promising to rail against the political ruling class.

Mr.Nice Guy

For someone who has waited his entire life for this moment, Johnson's speech was poor fare. He wasn't as dismissive as he could have been which suggests he will make a go at some type of rapprochement. That could well end in acrimony, though.

Nicola Sturgeon has really been handed a dream hand these last few years. The UK will soon be led by a figure who is even more unpopular in Scotland than Farage, and who is threatening a policy that nearly 2/3 of Scots reject.

The key thing for Sturgeon now is the timing of the next independence referendum. Does she come out and call for one now ahead of a possible election, thus making it a precondition of any prospective deal with the Labout party and/or Lib Dems? Or is it better for her to let Brexit take place, have it start to sting the Scottish economy, and then call for it to happen to capitalise on the mess?

It could be argued she's better off waiting and let Johnson commit gaffe after gaffe, thus growing support for independence; but what happens if Johnson is so inept that he gets replaced by a more competent Tory, and thus an independence referendum has a stronger figure to contend with in number 10? It's a big call for her. If I were her I'd lean towards waiting a little longer before calling for one but I don't think she should wait too long.

Igotadose

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Not sure I get these comparisons between Trump and BoJo that we're seeing. I mean one comes from a political dynasty with links to the aristocracy going back generations and the other is a second generation immigrant. You could argue that one joined the political ruling class because it was exactly what was expected of him whereas the other entered politics promising to rail against the political ruling class.

1. Neither appears to be too smart or have any substantial life achievements prior to entering politics
2. Both are obese
3. Both have bad hair
4. Both shoot from the lip, and regularly say bigoted things ('postboxes' for Boris, Trump... just look for a headline anytime in the past 2-3 years).
5. Both represent parties that are minority in the countries, based on the most recent elections

VinLieger

Igotadose wrote: »

5. Both represent parties that are minority in the countries, based on the most recent elections

The UK hasn't had a majority elected government Bar the Conservative - Lib Dem coalition since the 1950's

Stop moaning ffs

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

For someone who has waited his entire life for this moment, Johnson's speech was poor fare. He wasn't as dismissive as he could have been which suggests he will make a go at some type of rapprochement. That could well end in acrimony, though.

Nicola Sturgeon has really been handed a dream hand these last few years. The UK will soon be led by a figure who is even more unpopular in Scotland than Farage, and who is threatening a policy that nearly 2/3 of Scots reject.

The key thing for Sturgeon now is the timing of the next independence referendum. Does she come out and call for one now ahead of a possible election, thus making it a precondition of any prospective deal with the Labout party and/or Lib Dems? Or is it better for her to let Brexit take place, have it start to sting the Scottish economy, and then call for it to happen to capitalise on the mess?

It could be argued she's better off waiting and let Johnson commit gaffe after gaffe, thus growing support for independence; but what happens if Johnson is so inept that he gets replaced by a more competent Tory, and thus an independence referendum has a stronger figure to contend with in number 10? It's a big call for her. If I were her I'd lean towards waiting a little longer before calling for one but I don't think she should wait too long.

Hasn’t she already said it’s 2021 they’re holding the Indy ref?

Adamcp898

Igotadose wrote: »

1. Neither appears to be too smart or have any substantial life achievements prior to entering politics
2. Both are obese
3. Both have bad hair
4. Both shoot from the lip, and regularly say bigoted things ('postboxes' for Boris, Trump... just look for a headline anytime in the past 2-3 years).
5. Both represent parties that are minority in the countries, based on the most recent elections

Most of your points are fairly superficial though. So, like I said, I don't get it.

But on your first one; well, I'm not going to be the great defender of either man, but on paper at least I'm sure plenty would beg to differ.

Larbre34

VinLieger wrote: »

The UK hasn't had a majority elected government Bar the Conservative - Lib Dem coalition since the 1950's

How do you mean, what about Thatcher and Blair's overall majorities to name a few?

gooch2k9

Larbre34 wrote: »

How do you mean, what about Thatcher and Blair's overall majorities to name a few?

I think he means how FPTP can give a house majority with only ~35% of the vote.

I hope now that a Brexiteer is in charge he brings in his Brexiteer mates like JRM and Davis. They will have no excuse that remainers are frustrating their efforts now, and frankly I'm sick of them sniping from the sidelines.

ancapailldorcha

Larbre34 wrote: »

How do you mean, what about Thatcher and Blair's overall majorities to name a few?

The poster is referring to the percentage of votes gained. Under FPTP, this correlates very poorly with the amount of seats gained in the House of Commons.

Larbre34

Larbre34 wrote: »

How do you mean, what about Thatcher and Blair's overall majorities to name a few?

Blair won a landslide in parliament but with only 43% of the vote in 1997.

VinLieger

Larbre34 wrote: »

How do you mean, what about Thatcher and Blair's overall majorities to name a few?

Majority of seats in parliament does always not equal a majority of votes thanks to FPtP

MrMusician18

Igotadose wrote: »

1. Neither appears to be too smart or have any substantial life achievements prior to entering politics
2. Both are obese
3. Both have bad hair
4. Both shoot from the lip, and regularly say bigoted things ('postboxes' for Boris, Trump... just look for a headline anytime in the past 2-3 years).
5. Both represent parties that are minority in the countries, based on the most recent elections

Not smart? This guy has played a 20 year long game with the ultimate goal of becoming PM which he had almost now achieved. He is clearly smart and driven for the things he wants.

Stupid people don't become PM. Calculating egotists do.

I don't know why do many are quick to dismiss him as a fool. He personally carried No.

Tell me how

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Not smart? This guy has played a 20 year long game with the ultimate goal of becoming PM which he had almost now achieved. He is clearly smart and driven for the things he wants.

Stupid people don't become PM. Calculating egotists do.

That would only make sense if his twenty year plan included flip flopping on Europe, running for party leader before pulling out, resigning as Foreign secretary and taking the wheel of a car as it approaches the cliff edge.

I think he is not very smart but has that supreme confidence which overrides intelligence (or lack of).

Igotadose

Tell me how wrote: »

That would only make sense if his twenty year plan included flip flopping on Europe, running for party leader before pulling out, resigning as Foreign secretary and taking the wheel of a car as it approaches the cliff edge.

I think he is not very smart but has that supreme confidence which overrides intelligence.

I did say "appears" to not be smart. He is the PM, so he's calculating. But, his performance on the hustings and in his previous ministerial role was underwhelming to say the least. Blank stares when asked about 5c don't say 'genius' they say 'duh! what? Didn't read that far'

But, he's the PM. Let the games continue.

Enzokk

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Most of your points are fairly superficial though. So, like I said, I don't get it.

But on your first one; well, I'm not going to be the great defender of either man, but on paper at least I'm sure plenty would beg to differ.

They are both racists and seem to care only about themselves or their families. They are entitled and have been given all the head starts and preferential treatment all their lives because of their names and have hardly had to put in hard work to be successful. How either of them can improve the lives of the people they are supposed to represent is still a mystery to me.

serfboard

Enzokk wrote: »

How either of them can improve the lives of the people they are supposed to represent is still a mystery to me.

An awful lot of this is about the perceived ability to be able to inflict pain on the "other" tribe - and these principally being (any) foreigners, but also in the case of the US to "libtards", "coastal elites", "Welfare queens", Muslims, etc.

Which is why Trump supporters love the cages and the forced family separations, and Brexit supporters will be able to shout "they don't like it up 'em!" when Boris dispatches those nasty foreigners in the EU ...

dublinman1990

BBC News had the leader of the Lib Dems Jo Swinson at Westminster a short time ago. She said that the UK electorate has fully decided on what type of Brexit they wanted when they voted in the first referendum. She has also advocated for another referendum with one option for the WA & another option for Remain.

There are three young conservative party members speaking to BBC News before the weather forecast who voted in the contest. The two who supported Boris Johnson are quite eccentric. The guy who voted for Boris wore a striped suit for the result today. He had said he wanted that every option explored for having Brexit with some sort of deal. The other voter for BJ who is a young lady spoke with a nervous tone about BJ being the right leader for the country & so on. The fella who voted for JH was disappointed with BJ becoming leader but he said that he will facing the future of the party by working with BJ as leader of the party.

MrMusician18

Tell me how wrote: »

That would only make sense if his twenty year plan included flip flopping on Europe, running for party leader before pulling out, resigning as Foreign secretary and taking the wheel of a car as it approaches the cliff edge.

I think he is not very smart but has that supreme confidence which overrides intelligence (or lack of).

I'd actually say flip flopping on Europe is a testament to his cunning and ability to see the way the wind is blowing. He's a populist.

He pulled out of the race because he wouldve been up against Gove why would've at least given him a run for his money. Pulling out and Keeping his powder dry was a strategic move which he gambled on, he could've ended up in the wilderness, but he rightly saw that TM would become unstuck and ousted relatively soon.
He resigned as FS in a strategic move to align himself with the ERG. He even engineered who his own opponent would be in the leadership election, rightly determining that former remainer Hunt would be unpalatable to the membership.

Yes, he's taking the wheel as it approaches the cliff, but that doesn't matter when only taking the wheel was the goal.

There face that he doesn't have a coherent deliverable plan for his PMship doesn't mean that he's not smart, just that this part doesn't matter as much as getting hold of power.

Adamcp898

Enzokk wrote: »

How either of them can improve the lives of the people they are supposed to represent is still a mystery to me.

Even on that point they diverge. Boris is going to serve those who he exactly set out to do so, namely people like his own family and the Tory party membership but Donald, on the other hand, his greatest feat is persuading the working class of America that he was just like them.

dublinman1990

From RTÉ News live updates on the leadership contest victory for BJ

The European Parliament's chief Brexit coordinator Guy Verhofstadt says the parliament's Brexit Steering Group will hold an extraordinary meeting tomorrow with the EU's Chief Brexit Negotiator Michel Barnier to respond to Mr Johnson's election.

Mr Verhofstadt tweeted: "The meeting will be followed by an official communication. Looking forward to defending the interest of all Europeans."

A possible Welsh Independence vote being talked about from the leader of Plaid Cymru with a great line for the Tories.

Plaid Cymru leader in Westminster Liz Saville Roberts said the victory of "clown" Mr Johnson was a "gift" to the cause of Welsh independence, which she claimed was now inevitable.

"The Conservative party has just thrown the UK out of the frying pan and into the fire," she said.

Igotadose

Enzokk wrote: »

They are both racists and seem to care only about themselves or their families. They are entitled and have been given all the head starts and preferential treatment all their lives because of their names and have hardly had to put in hard work to be successful. How either of them can improve the lives of the people they are supposed to represent is still a mystery to me.

Well, and I find this kind of odd, here's part of today's victory speech that I guess is the 'inspirational' bit near the end:

"And we are once again going to believe in ourselves and what we can achieve. And like some slumbering giant, we are going to rise and ping off the guy ropes of self-doubt and negativity with better education, better infrastructure, more police, fantastic full-fibre broadband sprouting in every household. We are going to unite this amazing country and we are going to take it forward."


Full-fibre broadband? Is this like, an issue? Nothing about health care. Poverty. Enabling people. But broadband, oh yeah fer sure.

At least he didn't bring up kippers and ice pillows.

ancapailldorcha

Igotadose wrote: »

Full-fibre broadband? Is this like, an issue? Nothing about health care. Poverty. Enabling people. But broadband, oh yeah fer sure.

The cynic in me reckons that some Shire-dwelling Tories have been moaning to their MP's about this.

No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy. Doubly so when the enemy is as prepared and united as the EU (and that is how the British government has treated the EU so the term is appropriate here in my opinion). And even more so when it transpired that the battle plan is actually just a pile of meaningless invective and nationalist rhetoric.

Enzokk

Igotadose wrote: »

Well, and I find this kind of odd, here's part of today's victory speech that I guess is the 'inspirational' bit near the end:

"And we are once again going to believe in ourselves and what we can achieve. And like some slumbering giant, we are going to rise and ping off the guy ropes of self-doubt and negativity with better education, better infrastructure, more police, fantastic full-fibre broadband sprouting in every household. We are going to unite this amazing country and we are going to take it forward."


Full-fibre broadband? Is this like, an issue? Nothing about health care. Poverty. Enabling people. But broadband, oh yeah fer sure.

At least he didn't bring up kippers and ice pillows.

He is now the second Tory to talk about more police, but they were the government that cut police numbers. Yvette Cooper was quick to call out Sajid Javid on his proclamation that more police would make the UK safer for crime and asked him if he then agrees that higher crime is as a result of police numbers being cut. He quickly tried to backtrack but they know the game is up.

I am still astonished that even with this, with Johnson as leader and the Tories trying to rewrite history on their policies that caused a lot of the problems being faced now, that Labour is not polling at 45% or more. I guess that is why you had the attack dogs out again against Jo Swinson attacking her voting record. They know deep down they have screwed up backing Corbyn but cannot admit it so they are fighting the messenger instead of the message (or something like that).

Enzokk

There has been discussion on the Panorama program on Brexit in the previous pages, just wanted to link to it on Youtube for those that missed it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LG-CeYzxvw

Igotadose

Enzokk wrote: »

He is now the second Tory to talk about more police, but they were the government that cut police numbers.

Old people like talk of more police on the streets. Fear is what's used by politicians to motivate them. Tune in to foxnews at any time and 'scare the old people' is pretty obvious.

Strazdas

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Not sure I get these comparisons between Trump and BoJo that we're seeing. I mean one comes from a political dynasty with links to the aristocracy going back generations and the other is a second generation immigrant. You could argue that one joined the political ruling class because it was exactly what was expected of him whereas the other entered politics promising to rail against the political ruling class.

Both very short on detail and full of bombastic clichés and soundbites. When pressed on anything, they just start deflecting and waffling.

Sam Russell

VinLieger wrote: »

The UK hasn't had a majority elected government Bar the Conservative - Lib Dem coalition since the 1950's

The last single party Gov that had a majority of the popular vote was elected in 1932.

The only Gov since then was the LibDem/Tory coalition - the only coalition since 1932.

That is FPTP for you - very undemocratic.