Changing career help?

knipex

emilymemily wrote: »

This is the point of the current thread - changing career. I am trying to find something else to do.

I have had a meeting with a local guidance counselor but found her useless, I explained how I needed a job - any job, any wanted information on how I could transfer my skills into another environment and what would be my best move, in terms of job security and finding something I would be even semi suited to - ie, nothing involving maths and something people orientated.
She was fixated on the art degree and sent me emails for short term - non paid or little paid artistic projects. Its frustrating, its like my degrees are holding me back, no body can see past them.

I will make an appointment with a local requirement agency, thank you.

It sounds like your CV is built and written around your first desire, a job teaching art.

Unfortunately that CV isn't going to come across well for an admin role.

You need multiple versions of your CV specifically tailored to the sector \ industry that you are applying to.

The principle liked your CV because its designed for teaching positions and that's what they would be recruiting for.

Also bear in mind that you are effectively starting your career again so will have to get a relatively junior position and build up.

whoopsadaisy

Difficult situation. My advice first of all would be to alter your CV to the most basic version, so it's targetting a wide audience. Remove any opening paragraphs that detail your love of art or teaching - if you're applying for a receptionist or a retail position, having a CV where your education, career history and interests / skills / hobbies are all directed in one field, and that field is irrelevant to the job you're applying, employers are going to overlook you.

Once you've stripped it down to the basic then you can tailor it to different fields. Make a list of the types of jobs or industries you want to apply to, then make a slightly different CV for each one, highlighting relevant skills / experiences and why you want to work in that area.

Add a covering note with each application. Don't make it long - just why you're interested and why you think you might be a good candidate. Short and sweet.

OK, now the CV is done, you need to find the right jobs. Where are you looking? I tend to find irishjobs and jobs.ie the best. LinkedIn and Indeed are the worst culprits for leaving up old ads - if an ad is still live 30+ days, yes do still apply because you never know, but be realistic here, you could be wasting your time, so keep refreshing the job ads and applying for the most recent, relevant ones.

Upload your basic CV to the job databases - irishjobs, Monster, Indeed. Recruiters can find you this way. Change your LinkedIn tagline to seeking new opportunities and connect with recruiters

On topic of recruiters, if you see a job ad you're interested in through an agency, get in touch with them, call them. Explain your situation and ask for advice - what industries are busy at the moment? Where do you think I would have the best luck? Ask them for CV advice too.

I wouldn't rule out temping either as this could get you early office / administration experience that would then stand to you on your CV. Most of the larger agencies do temp positions.

Mrs OBumble

emilymemily wrote: »

Unfortunately in teaching, its all about who you know, being related to or friends with the Principal is a sure way of getting a teaching job. Ive no doubt this is a contributory factor to the current teaching crisis. What im finding is, in my own experience this is common across the board, no matter the sector, nepotism is the only way to get a foot in most places.

It's a good start that you know this.

Now get busy applying the information to getting yourself employed.

Start with your classmates / friends from teacher-school (whereever that was for you). Tell them that you're looking and specifically ask them to let you know of anything they hear about - and when they do, ask them to put in a good word for you. Ditto friends of the family, the people from any volunteer activities you've don't, etc. Anyone even might be in a position to help.

And be careful that you specifically ask them to help. People are mighty thick, and won't join the dots and let you know just because they know you're looking, they need to be clearly asked, and then reminded every few months.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

You’re joking, yea?

Nope. Not even slightly. I have three versions 1) proper professional CV, 2) senior admin CV (uses big words, and a few job titles), and 3) really basic one pager: no job titles and very basic job descriptions make with short words.

All tell the truth. But do it in ways that the target audience will understand. Think "made changes on the computer" vs "analysed requirements for order-entry system re-engineering, worked with team to implement a solution that gave a 50% performance increase"

stefanovich

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Start with your classmates / friends from teacher-school (whereever that was for you). Tell them that you're looking and specifically ask them to let you know of anything they hear about - and when they do, ask them to put in a good word for you. Ditto friends of the family, the people from any volunteer activities you've don't, etc. Anyone even might be in a position to help.

Are people in the profession actually okay with this? Why can't it be changed?

spurious

Unfortunately, there are next to no real jobs in teaching at the moment, as the OP and many others find every year.

The perception out there is that you get a 30 grand job straight out of college, get home at 4 every day and have four months off. The reality is much more like the OP describes, being messed about, short term, low paying contracts and always someone else getting the job.

Many schools in the country have only one Art teacher. Even if all of them had two, that's still a pool of well under 2000 jobs. How many are doing the teaching course every year? People in situ are not retiring at a quick enough rate to absorb all the new teachers, not just in Art, but in almost all subjects. With places like Hibernia pumping out teachers to beat the band, there is a crazy over-supply.

OP, I think it would be well worth your while going to a recruitment agency. They will know what is out there and there may well be an opening that you are ideal for.

OMM 0000

I think people should consider looking beyond Ireland. It's a small country.

There are all sorts of opportunities (e.g. art teacher) in Asia, etc.

If you've little or no attachments then the UK or Middle East should be considered if you want to teach art. If you've only one subject you can teach, especially art, you're in a very niche area. So, as you have found, prospects here will not be good.

I'd also rehash your CV. You're right, employers are going to think you'll only be biding your time for your "ideal job". The good news is that you should be able to find waiting staff roles. There's a severe lack of staff to fill these roles with effective full employment out there. So, as been said above, tailor your CV, galling as that may be, you might be intimidating hiring staff as it stands.

Finally, a post grad computer related could be the way to go. Computer programming is more a language than numbers.

Good luck.

LotharIngum

OP, I started out my main career as a teacher but I couldn't hack the non stop contact with the kids and then bloody homework and all the other crap you have to do at night. yes the holidays were great, but by God the rest would kill you. I easily did more hours than my wife who works in IT does, even though I left the school at 3pm most days. When I tell her this she laughs and thinks teachers don't work at all.
It was the evening work with teaching that sapped me. Trust me its a good thing you are getting out of it.

When I left school I went off to Spain and worked in holiday resort for the summer, then went to Italy and got a job in a factory. Then went to Greece and worked on a ferry. But I came back to Ireland when I met my wife. She is Irish and I was born in Germany, but came to Ireland when I was 10. I then resat my leaving cert and got into teaching through st pats. Got a job in a Dublin school handy enough after subbing for a year.

So one day I just decided I was leaving teaching and I got a job working laboring on a building site. That was great for a while, but winter came and I had enough of that too.


I then decided to go into marketing and it was such a good fit for me. I did a 6 month course in marketing and finance and got a job straight out of that, maybe paying half what I got as a teacher but I loved it. Soon enough, within 3 years the wages were far better than they were for teaching. The hours were less and the craic was far better. IVe been in that for about 12 or 13 years now and I think im just going to quit when I get to 15 years and go and live in Spain for a year and then after that travelling the world. All when the kids are in uni of course. I have to convince the other half of that, but I will win out

I decided a long time ago that toiling away in a job you don't like, or even if you like it, is just for the money to live and nothing else. And moving career is actually far easier than you think. I would have thought the moves I did were impossible, but when I tried it out it was so easy. Chin up and just do what you feel like doing and more importantly, change it if it isn't right for you. You'll be so much happier.

OMM 0000

Deleted User wrote: »

Computer programming is more a language than numbers.

I don't really agree with this.

Computer programming is the ability to think logically and creatively in an obsessively step by step way. And that's just for the basics. When you get to real-world software engineering, you start dealing with all sorts of design patterns which are very abstract.

One of the problems with 99%+ programming books is they just teach the basics. You still have years of study and practice ahead of you before you won't feel like a terrible programmer. Even then, most programmers are not very good, and for certain, most people either can't program, or will be very bad at it.

The reason computer science is often attached to maths departments is because the obsessive step by step thought process is required in both disciplines.

Mrs OBumble

stefanovich wrote: »

Are people in the profession actually okay with this? Why can't it be changed?

Who knows. But it's true in most every field.

Why should it be changed? I'd rather someone who comes with a recommendation than a randomly who can pull off a good interview. Either might be useless, but there's a lower chance with the recommended

stefanovich

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Who knows. But it's true in most every field.

Why should it be changed? I'd rather someone who comes with a recommendation than a randomly who can pull off a good interview. Either might be useless, but there's a lower chance with the recommended

This is not a normal recommendation that any employer would request though.

You are basically asking for people to make friends with other teachers so they can get into the club.

How about judging people based on their ability and performance rather than their ability to ingratiate and brown nose? This question is somewhat rhetorical as I know that performance is held in low regard in the public service.

salonfire

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I don't really agree with this.

Computer programming is the ability to think logically and creatively in an obsessively step by step way. And that's just for the basics. When you get to real-world software engineering, you start dealing with all sorts of design patterns which are very abstract.

One of the problems with 99%+ programming books is they just teach the basics. You still have years of study and practice ahead of you before you won't feel like a terrible programmer. Even then, most programmers are not very good, and for certain, most people either can't program, or will be very bad at it.

The reason computer science is often attached to maths departments is because the obsessive step by step thought process is required in both disciplines.

It's notions like this that puts people off the IT industry.

Not every development job is at the cutting edge of technology.

A lot of development work is relatively straight-forward enhancements to existing systems and bug fixing. You don't need to be a genius or Bill Gates to do this grunt work which is every bit as vital to the industry.

Many people from other backgrounds (I know a guy with a history background) can switch to programming seamlessly.

salonfire

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Who knows. But it's true in most every field.

Why should it be changed? I'd rather someone who comes with a recommendation than a randomly who can pull off a good interview. Either might be useless, but there's a lower chance with the recommended

On the other hand, a lot of jobs come with the stipulation that canvassing will disqualify.

Your best friend could turn out to be a complete idiot in work. If you hire him or her, that leaves a bad impression on you as well.

LimeFruitGum

I have a few friends who went into teaching after college, some of them did manage to get out for the same reasons as OP. I ended up in a company years ago and bumped into a Science teacher from my school. She was there as a HR rep. I did a double-take when I first saw her in the canteen.

Is it remotely possible to add another subject to the mix, even if it was just up to Junior Cert level?

I have recently switched industries but it took me several months. I had to rewrite my CV to get seen; I had to strip out all the niche industry terms from the last 15 years and recast it for a new audience. Still the same STAR examples but expressed in a way that made sense to someone who never worked in my old industry.

OMM 0000

salonfire wrote: »

It's notions like this that puts people off the IT industry.

Not every development job is at the cutting edge of technology.

A lot of development work is relatively straight-forward enhancements to existing systems and bug fixing. You don't need to be a genius or Bill Gates to do this grunt work which is every bit as vital to the industry.

Many people from other backgrounds (I know a guy with a history background) can switch to programming seamlessly.

Design patterns are a basic aspect of software development.

They are not cutting edge.

If you do not know how to recognise design patterns, how can you expect to competently enhance existing code?

A huge part of software development is understanding what the programmers before you (who wrote the code you're staring at) were thinking.

This is one of the major problems with software development at the moment. People think the barrier to entry is easy (just read "Javascript in 24 Hours"!) and don't respect what a difficult skill proper software development is.

GalwayGrrrrrl

Have you looked at occupational therapy as a career? My mother is a retired art teacher and she always wished she’d been an OT instead. OTs work in different settings, hospitals, day centres, outpatient settings, and work with a variety of adults and children, mental and physical health difficulties etc. There were issues a few years ago with new graduates finding it hard to get intern placements so see if that’s improved but it could be a good side step career for you that would use your teaching and art talents. I work in a hospital that employs an OT assistant that is unqualified (supervised by an OT) so keep an eye out for that type of thing, network with your local hospital employees for opportunities.

salonfire

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Design patterns are a basic aspect of software development.

They are not cutting edge.

If you do not know how to recognise design patterns, how can you expect to competently enhance existing code?

A huge part of software development is understanding what the programmers before you (who wrote the code you're staring at) were thinking.

This is one of the major problems with software development at the moment. People think the barrier to entry is easy (just read "Javascript in 24 Hours"!) and don't respect what a difficult skill proper software development is.

Nonsense.

Yes, it is difficult and only people with a particular logical way of thinking can work on it.

But to suggest you need to spend years on studying software engineering theory to get a job is simply not true.
A basic understanding of classes and Entities and Relationships will get you by.

Otherwise, how do you think people from a non-IT background can switch to it relatively quickly?

If you want to work at Google, your point is correct.

But for the more relatively basic applications - like you will find in a finance company for example - its perfectly manageable to maintain and enhance without all the frilly nonsense you mention about patterns.

With the demand for developers out there as well, any idiot can get a job in it quite frankly. Even by just reading Javascript in 24 Hours.
IT is a good choice with good salaries if you have the aptitude for it.

OMM 0000

salonfire wrote: »

Nonsense.

Yes, it is difficult and only people with a particular logical way of thinking can work on it.

But to suggest you need to spend years on studying software engineering theory to get a job is simply not true.
A basic understanding of classes and Entities and Relationships will get you by.

Otherwise, how do you think people from a non-IT background can switch to it relatively quickly?

If you want to work at Google, your point is correct.

But for the more relatively basic applications - like you will find in a finance company for example - its perfectly manageable to maintain and enhance without all the frilly nonsense you mention about patterns.

With the demand for developers out there as well, any idiot can get a job in it quite frankly. Even by just reading Javascript in 24 Hours.
IT is a good choice with good salaries if you have the aptitude for it.

Look, it's clear you don't know what you're talking about, so I'm not going to carry on with this ridiculous line of thought.

For the record I am a CTO in Japan, have previously worked in multiple countries at either a CTO or director of software engineering level, I have over 20 years IT experience, a masters in computer science, and I've hired hundreds of software developers, and managed hundreds of them over the past few years.

I understand you're entitled to give your opinion on things, but it's obvious you don't have any real understanding of software development.

You can have the last word on this as I'm not going to continue this conversation with you.

OMM 0000

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I have over 20 years IT experience,

Funny enough, the longer someone is in IT and the higher up they are I do wonder how out of touch they are with the newer developments and requirements. Not saying that's true in your case.

salonfire

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Look, it's clear you don't know what you're talking about, so I'm not going to carry on with this ridiculous line of thought.

For the record I am a CTO in Japan, have previously worked in multiple countries at either a CTO or director of software engineering level, I have over 20 years IT experience, a masters in computer science, and I've hired hundreds of software developers, and managed hundreds of them over the past few years.

I understand you're entitled to give your opinion on things, but it's obvious you don't have any real understanding of software development.

You can have the last word on this as I'm not going to continue this conversation with you.

Then you should know that the industry is full of people without degrees and masters as well then.

Just because you don't consider them as software engineers doesn't mean they aren't working away in programming and computing.

Nobelium

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Look, it's clear you don't know what you're talking about, so I'm not going to carry on with this ridiculous line of thought.

For the record I am a CTO in Japan, have previously worked in multiple countries at either a CTO or director of software engineering level, I have over 20 years IT experience, a masters in computer science, and I've hired hundreds of software developers, and managed hundreds of them over the past few years.

From all your egotistical posts it seems you haven't learned very much.

OMM 0000

Deleted User wrote: »

Funny enough, the longer someone is in IT and the higher up they are I do wonder how out of touch they are with the newer developments and requirements. Not saying that's true in your case.

I'm still hands on.

OMM 0000

salonfire wrote: »

Then you should know that the industry is full of people without degrees and masters as well then.

Just because you don't consider them as software engineers doesn't mean they aren't working away in programming and computing.

See, you're changing the argument so I have to defend something I never said.

I never said people without degrees and masters can't be software engineers.

I never said I don't consider those people software engineers.

salonfire

OMM 0000 wrote: »

See, you're changing the argument so I have to defend something I never said.

I never said people without degrees and masters can't be software engineers.

I never said I don't consider those people software engineers.

You implied that you need to have years of study to be a programmer.
I am saying you don't for many programming/IT jobs. Therefore it is easier to get into as a career change than you alluded to.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

One of the problems with 99%+ programming books is they just teach the basics. You still have years of study and practice ahead of you before you won't feel like a terrible programmer. Even then, most programmers are not very good, and for certain, most people either can't program, or will be very bad at it.

OMM 0000

salonfire wrote: »

You implied that you need to have years of study to be a programmer.
I am saying you don't for many programming/IT jobs. Therefore it is easier to get into as a career change than you alluded to.

Any experienced programmer will agree with what I said.

Here it is again:

One of the problems with 99%+ programming books is they just teach the basics. You still have years of study and practice ahead of you before you won't feel like a terrible programmer.

Programming, unfortunately, requires continuous learning. When you come out of college, you're incredibly junior, and it takes years of practice and study before you become good at it.

Anyone can read a programming book and call himself a programmer. Just like anyone can form a company and call himself a CEO. But does that mean they know what they're doing?

You said the following things in a previous post:

* design patterns are only for cutting edge developers

* writing financial software only requires basic software development skills

* people from non-IT backgrounds can become developers relatively quickly

* a basic understanding of classes, entities and relationships is all you need to be a developer

* any idiot can get a job as a software developer, even from just reading "Javascript in 24 Hours"

Experienced developers reading this list, will have the same opinion as me. You don't have a real understanding of software development.

Now, you're changing your argument to be about any IT job. I can accept a smart person, who is hard working and a quick learner can work in QA. I can also accept a person who can think creatively, logically, and can communicate well can work as a product manager. But that's a different topic and not what you or I were talking about.

As I stated earlier, I do not wish to continue this conversation with you. You're welcome to continue posting your theories on software development. But I ask you refrain from making up stuff about me.

Mrs OBumble

salonfire wrote: »

On the other hand, a lot of jobs come with the stipulation that canvassing will disqualify.

Your best friend could turn out to be a complete idiot in work. If you hire him or her, that leaves a bad impression on you as well.

Direct canvassing with disqualify in some public sector jobs, for sure. Officially anyways.

But indirect canvassing is a whole different thing. Soft recommendations. Quiet words about where to apply and when, or what particular thing to emphasise in your CV or application. Etc.

And of course no one recommends people who they think are idiots. This needs to be done based on real relationships, not just mates-with basis.

salonfire

OMM 0000 wrote: »

You said the following things in a previous post:

* design patterns are only for cutting edge developers
Someone working in day to day coding is not interested in the theory of patterns

* writing financial software only requires basic software development skills
This is true, if it is a basic application. People even develop on the side to make efficiencies or improvements to their actual job.

* people from non-IT backgrounds can become developers relatively quickly
This is true

* a basic understanding of classes, entities and relationships is all you need to be a developer
If working on simple apps, this is true .

* any idiot can get a job as a software developer, even from just reading "Javascript in 24 Hours"
The reading "Javascript in 24 Hours" was hyperbole.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

As I stated earlier, I do not wish to continue this conversation with you.

Fine. But don't come into a thread about changing career and espouse negatives about programming. It is off putting to others and not reflective of all development work.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I don't really agree with this.

Computer programming is the ability to think logically and creatively in an obsessively step by step way. And that's just for the basics. When you get to real-world software engineering, you start dealing with all sorts of design patterns which are very abstract.

One of the problems with 99%+ programming books is they just teach the basics. You still have years of study and practice ahead of you before you won't feel like a terrible programmer. Even then, most programmers are not very good, and for certain, most people either can't program, or will be very bad at it.

The reason computer science is often attached to maths departments is because the obsessive step by step thought process is required in both disciplines.

acorntoast

salonfire wrote: »

Someone working in day to day coding is not interested in the theory of patterns

Hi salonfire - what's a theory of patterns?