Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

thomond2006

Niallof9

Salanoa isn't good enough. Aungier was the one they needed to keep but he wanted to play more. this will be the reality going forward for Leinster. Players will want to play, not only in mickey mouse pro 14 games.

bayern

Niallof9 wrote: »

Salanoa isn't good enough. Aungier was the one they needed to keep but he wanted to play more. this will be the reality going forward for Leinster. Players will want to play, not only in mickey mouse pro 14 games.

Leinster chose Salanoa over Aungier due to his higher potential.

Thats the only reason why aungier is not playing for Leinster, he didn't have a contract offer, it wouldn't shock me if Aungier did a Kelleher and looked to return to dublin when his current contract ends.

salmocab

Niallof9 wrote: »

Salanoa isn't good enough. Aungier was the one they needed to keep but he wanted to play more. this will be the reality going forward for Leinster. Players will want to play, not only in mickey mouse pro 14 games.

I’ve been seeing this for years now, players will leave or x will have to move on to get game time and I’ve not seen it in any real numbers. The higher profile moves are unlikely to be really thinking they made the right choice and the younger lads that moved were unlikely to get anywhere at Leinster. Connors turned down a move to Connacht and I heard people go on about him being happy to just play pro 14 and it shows he had no ambition, now he’s an international.
The best players will in general back themselves to make it at the biggest clubs.

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

Salanoa isn't good enough. Aungier was the one they needed to keep but he wanted to play more. this will be the reality going forward for Leinster. Players will want to play, not only in mickey mouse pro 14 games.

This kinda thing is why I find it so frustrating discussing things with you on here sometimes, Niallof9. Not 3 days ago, you were claiming Penny's starts against the likes of Ospreys, Dragons and Zebre were "big games" and went on to chastise me for pointing it out, saying:

Niallof9 wrote: »

your dismissal of those games is why Irish rugby can be a bit ****e at times.

Niallof9

salmocab wrote: »

I’ve been seeing this for years now, players will leave or x will have to move on to get game time and I’ve not seen it in any real numbers. The higher profile moves are unlikely to be really thinking they made the right choice and the younger lads that moved were unlikely to get anywhere at Leinster. Connors turned down a move to Connacht and I heard people go on about him being happy to just play pro 14 and it shows he had no ambition, now he’s an international.
The best players will in general back themselves to make it at the biggest clubs.

its not a black and white issue. The numbers going into Leinster year on year will mean its always a struggle for some players. Its not unfair to say Dooley and some guys should move on. why are some people so sensitive to this reality.

Niallof9

aloooof wrote: »

This kinda thing is why I find it so frustrating discussing things with you on here sometimes, Niallof9. Not 3 days ago, you were claiming Penny's starts against the likes of Ospreys, Dragons and Zebre were "big games" and went on to chastise me for pointing it out, saying:

yeah i knew you'd spot that. i suppose i hold my hands up. I'm not saying they aren't mickey mouse games at times. I was mainly arguing it wasn't that much different between Penny and Connors. more to do with the fact just like Lowry on the other thread that somehow they have to earn their stripes. and yeah it is part of the reason the thing has become a farce. the way we all can, myself included dismiss them. But not all games are mickey mouse. And Penny is an outstanding talent, its clear as day.

There's a few lads who will clearly need to move on thats just the reality of it. Being able to call on certain players for our depth, and admire their balls to stay and back themselves is worth nothing to them in the future when they realise they wasted their best years. Fair play to Aungier realising this. Why would he stay and be third choice behind two young tightheads? Peter Dooley springs to mind and my usual one of Adam Byrne (who yes is injured). Nearly all the O'Briens fit this category as well. With the former, both 25, both drifting in and out and both wasting their careers in the main area of what they should be doing - playing games. The problem with Irish rugby can be laid bare with this argument. Four provinces, one stubbornly selecting dross at times, one not selecting its best youth and one benefiting from natural geography and being the best naturally on the Island and the fourth losing a bit of its identity as outsiders come in (which i agree with moving around players for games is a necessary evil). And this is compounded by the fact the provinces work for Ireland, not the other way around.

Salanoa is what he is a long shot bet. There's nothing to suggest at 23 he's going to be the answer. I find it really annoying that people are going on about it. The big loss is Vakh, an Irish, local kid who looks desperately unlucky.

People love to get their knickers in a twist with all this and i just don't get it at all. With such a small pool of players we need to maxamise their gametime and i applaud any young player who saids i want to play i'm moving. IF another worldie 13 emerges what point is there in him staying? ditto a lock.

Dubinusa

Niallof9 wrote: »

its not a black and white issue. The numbers going into Leinster year on year will mean its always a struggle for some players. Its not unfair to say Dooley and some guys should move on. why are some people so sensitive to this reality.

Why would Dooley leave? He's getting his chance to play and impress now. Healy is not going to play much longer and Milne is still learning.
With the amount of injuries. We are rarely at full strength. Conan and Deegan are out and Doris with the international set up. Ruddock is our 8 atm. Cronin has been out, so Sheehan got a look.
I do expect some lads to move. I think that the union encourages these moves so lads can feature more.
I was disappointed that Aungier left. But, Furlong. Porter and Bent were all ahead of him. He thought that he'd be wasting away with the 'A's and buried imo. Fair play to him, I hope he does well.
Right now Leinster are fairly thin on players . Tight head is a problem and inside center. The younger players are togging out weekly now and impressing.

Niallof9

Dubinusa wrote: »

Why would Dooley leave? He's getting his chance to play and impress now. Healy is not going to play much longer and Milne is still learning.
With the amount of injuries. We are rarely at full strength. Conan and Deegan are out and Doris with the international set up. Ruddock is our 8 atm. Cronin has been out, so Sheehan got a look.
I do expect some lads to move. I think that the union encourages these moves so lads can feature more.
I was disappointed that Aungier left. But, Furlong. Porter and Bent were all ahead of him. He thought that he'd be wasting away with the 'A's and buried imo. Fair play to him, I hope he does well.
Right now Leinster are fairly thin on players . Tight head is a problem and inside center. The younger players are togging out weekly now and impressing.

How many Champions games has Dooley played? look he might as well hang on, but Cian's still getting capped. and it looks another ligind situation of not knowing when to call it a day. so by the time Peter becomes first choice Milne might be there right behind him.

Look there's not many that should move now, Leinster need a squad. But if they choose to fair ****s to them. Some , with the way our pyramid and contracts are structured, will never ever be bona fide first choicers or the key guys. and alot of that is down to luck and timing. Liam Turner will never replace Ringrose as long as Ringrose is around. SO eventually Turner has very little choice but to go somewhere. With genuine World class players like RIngrose its easier to take, its when its the more questionable choices then its harder to understand.

sydthebeat

Niallof9 wrote: »

How many Champions games has Dooley played? look he might as well hang on, but Cian's still getting capped. and it looks another ligind situation of not knowing when to call it a day. so by the time Peter becomes first choice Milne might be there right behind him.
.

Dooley will never be 1st choice in my opinion

by the time Ed Byrne takes over from Healy Milne will have taken over from Dooley.

But he will be a valuable squad player a la Benty

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

yeah i knew you'd spot that. i suppose i hold my hands up.

Well, when it was so glaring... (Fair play for holding your hands up in fairness).

Niallof9 wrote: »

I'm not saying they aren't mickey mouse games at times. I was mainly arguing it wasn't that much different between Penny and Connors. more to do with the fact just like Lowry on the other thread that somehow they have to earn their stripes. and yeah it is part of the reason the thing has become a farce. the way we all can, myself included dismiss them. But not all games are mickey mouse. But Penny is an outstanding talent, its clear as day.

To be fair, I can see your point on Penny vs Connors. Connors has had more exposure to higher calibre opposition (Munster, Pro14 SF, 1 CC QF) but it isn't substantially more by any means. But I do go back to the argument that the game time we see is just a fraction of what the coaches will see, from training etc and that's going to inform selection as much as anything else.

And I still maintain that while Penny is Leinster's 4th choice 7, it's far from a disaster if he isn't included in this round of Ireland games (And I know you included him in a list along with others as well, to be fair).

Tbh (and with a nod towards the rest of your post) he might be a good candidate for a move.

Niallof9

yeah maybe i think Penny is a real real talent. I mean people tend to forget he was long touted as one and is capped by Leinster so young.

Its a tricky balance between keeping squad depth and not harming lads careers. Its just if Leinster continue producing young players at this rate the question becomes a real live one some day and eventually an issue will rear its head if it hasn't already.

I mean maybe the well runs dry and its all moot. Like after Baird perhaps who is the next Larmour, Ringrose etc. maybe its all going to balance itself out quite quickly. I mean apart from the lads who are in the academy that are getting games its not a stellar crop apart from maybe Clarkson, Soroka and possibly Smith.

sydthebeat

main difference between connors and penny is the obvious 5" in height... and like it or not, a sub 6 foot back row forward is going to struggle without a very, very valuable USP

Niallof9

Steffon Armitage springs to mind. Cooper, Poccock and on and on. Penny's height will not impede the lad at all. He's a far better linkman than Connors, better hands, faster, better feet. Connors is a tackle machine and a big bloke. Anyway i think its Van Der Flier that has to really start performing now. Push Leavy to six and have the two lads duke it out.

There was a time people lost their minds at having too tall a player at 7.

bayern

Niallof9 wrote: »

yeah i knew you'd spot that. i suppose i hold my hands up. I'm not saying they aren't mickey mouse games at times. I was mainly arguing it wasn't that much different between Penny and Connors. more to do with the fact just like Lowry on the other thread that somehow they have to earn their stripes. and yeah it is part of the reason the thing has become a farce. the way we all can, myself included dismiss them. But not all games are mickey mouse. And Penny is an outstanding talent, its clear as day.

There's a few lads who will clearly need to move on thats just the reality of it. Being able to call on certain players for our depth, and admire their balls to stay and back themselves is worth nothing to them in the future when they realise they wasted their best years. Fair play to Aungier realising this. Why would he stay and be third choice behind two young tightheads? Peter Dooley springs to mind and my usual one of Adam Byrne (who yes is injured). Nearly all the O'Briens fit this category as well. With the former, both 25, both drifting in and out and both wasting their careers in the main area of what they should be doing - playing games. The problem with Irish rugby can be laid bare with this argument. Four provinces, one stubbornly selecting dross at times, one not selecting its best youth and one benefiting from natural geography and being the best naturally on the Island and the fourth losing a bit of its identity as outsiders come in (which i agree with moving around players for games is a necessary evil). And this is compounded by the fact the provinces work for Ireland, not the other way around.

Salanoa is what he is a long shot bet. There's nothing to suggest at 23 he's going to be the answer. I find it really annoying that people are going on about it. The big loss is Vakh, an Irish, local kid who looks desperately unlucky.

People love to get their knickers in a twist with all this and i just don't get it at all. With such a small pool of players we need to maxamise their gametime and i applaud any young player who saids i want to play i'm moving. IF another worldie 13 emerges what point is there in him staying? ditto a lock.

none of the o'briens are 25.

Conor O'Brien is 24, Jimmy O'Brien is 23 and Tommy O'Brien is 22.

Conor has basically lost a year of rugby due to injury and covid and the other two are pushing on massively at leinster.

Niallof9

bayern wrote: »

none of the o'briens are 25.

Conor O'Brien is 24, Jimmy O'Brien is 23 and Tommy O'Brien is 22.

Conor has basically lost a year of rugby due to injury and covid and the other two are pushing on massively at leinster.

I was talking about the other two lads. But i'd imagine two of those lads will have to move on.

kingofthekong

sydthebeat wrote: »

Dooley will never be 1st choice in my opinion

by the time Ed Byrne takes over from Healy Milne will have taken over from Dooley.

But he will be a valuable squad player a la Benty

Agree on Milne replacing Dooley - I think relatively soon, Dooley has had plenty of time to take that 1 jersey and Byrne beat him to it,

bayern

Niallof9 wrote: »

I was talking about the other two lads. But i'd imagine two of those lads will have to move on.

Some imagination.

Burkie1203

Ringrose back in full training

bayern

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Ringrose back in full training

Would be nice to see a centre pairing of frawley and ringer.

bayern

Leinster Rugby (caps in brackets):

15. Jimmy O’Brien (23)
14. Cian Kelleher (18)
13. Liam Turner (3)
12. Ciarán Frawley (29)
11. Dave Kearney (153)
10. Harry Byrne (15)
9. Luke McGrath (133)
1. Peter Dooley (80)
2. James Tracy (115)
3. Michael Bent (146)
4. Ross Molony (101)
5. Ryan Baird (13)
6. Josh Murphy (37)
7. Dan Leavy (67)
8. Rhys Ruddock (179) CAPTAIN

16. Dan Sheehan (4)
17. Michael Milne (13)
18. Tom Clarkson (3)
19. Devin Toner (253)
20. Jack Dunne (9)
21. Rowan Osborne (5)
22. Michael Silvester (1)
23. Scott Penny (18)

MaybeMaybe

Toner is well on track to be the most capped player for Leinster.

bayern

Surely a bit more rotation could have been possible?

connachta

MaybeMaybe wrote: »

Toner is well on track to be the most capped player for Leinster.

Michael Swift 268 number is at threat.
If Toner retires in May it will be close

Burkie1203

bayern wrote: »

Surely a bit more rotation could have been possible?

How?

Also, Bent is the only player in the 23 Leinster didnt produce

kingofthekong

No Hawkshaw is weird

Dwarf.Shortage

On the plus side we mightn't lose Ross Byrne to international duty for many more years #silverlining

molloyjh

kingofthekong wrote: »

No Hawkshaw is weird

He hasn't really gone too well in his showings so far IMO. Not too shocked he isn't there. We just need to hope Harry stays fit....

kingofthekong

molloyjh wrote: »

He hasn't really gone too well in his showings so far IMO. Not too shocked he isn't there. We just need to hope Harry stays fit....

hes been given a sliver of opportunity after coming back form a leg break, id invest just a morsel more time in him there mate whilst we are pumping teams by 50 and theres literally no risk in letting him find his feet

molloyjh

kingofthekong wrote: »

hes been given a sliver of opportunity after coming back form a leg break, id invest just a morsel more time in him there mate whilst we are pumping teams by 50 and theres literally no risk in letting him find his feet

Okay, for starters we're not mates. Secondly, wind your neck in, I wasn't writing the guy off at all. He hasn't looked good when he's been on and so maybe the coaches feel he needs a bit more time before being thrown in. There may not be any risks to Leinster in terms of winning the match, but there may be risks to Hawkshaw himself in terms of confidence levels. Maybe he just needs to be managed a bit more. Thats not a bad thing. This idea that players can only get better, and there can only be positive outcomes, from game time is incredibly myopic. Thats simply not always the case. And the coaches need to juggle what's best for both the team and the individual.