Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

Buer

Clegg wrote: »

Shane Horgan is on today's Second Captains podcast. He liked what he saw of Leinster's dual playmaking 10/12 combination and believes that's what's required for Leinster to move to a higher level of performance. What's interesting though is that he doesn't think Henshaw is the ball playing 12 we need to bring us to that level.

It's hard to know for sure but I'd broadly agree. Henshaw has solid hands and footballing skills but he's not a playmaker. He's a slightly more skilled version of Horgan himself at 12 when he was at his best. He's certainly working at it though and might further improve in that regard; the touches with the boot against Munster were encouraging.

If we are going to look at others for a ball playing option at 12, there's not really anyone beyond Frawley currently as an option. Maybe Hawkshaw will be but he's slightly undersized which is a concern.

Jimmy O'Brien played 10 up to U20 level so perhaps he could be looked at also but Frawley is the stand out option as a second distributor.

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/RTErugby/status/1300698498644541440?s=19

Former Former

I think Henshaw is a far better rugby player than he's given credit for. He's viewed as some sort of bosher because that's what has been asked of him in a green jersey in recent years. I don't think it's accurate at all tbh.

ionadnapokot

Deleted User wrote: »

Not an outrageous opinion at all. All the best teams in the world have a second play maker at 12 or 15. Henshaw doesn't have that vision. Joey Carbery did brilliantly for us at 15.

Horgan only 3 or 4 years behind the rest of the rugby watching world!
Even when Henshaw made his debut at 12 v SA 6 years ago he was never going to be used a distributor. I think he gave just 1 pass in that game.

What he has added, only very recently, is a bit more willingness to throw a pass and that little grubber kick v Munster was great to see.

Squidgy Black

Frawley looks like he could turn out to be a better version of Noel Reid. Who was no slouch himself.

aloooof

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Horgan only 3 or 4 years behind the rest of the rugby watching world!
Even when Henshaw made his debut at 12 v SA 6 years ago he was never going to be used a distributor. I think he gave just 1 pass in that game.

What he has added, only very recently, is a bit more willingness to throw a pass and that little grubber kick v Munster was great to see.

He had a couple of nice offloads against Wales as well in the 6N this year. He may not be a play-maker but he definitely has more in his locker than just a bosh-merchant. (Not that that's what was being suggested by anyone).

arsebiscuits1

Guinness RFC wrote: »

He missed 2 one on the try line for Herrings try and one when stockdale ghosted through a gap on a kick return. ESPN stats are iffy if you’re relying on them

Wouldn't go down as a missed tackle on Herring

Most teams might view it as something like a soak tackle and code it with a try conceded.

But Connors makes the tackle. But a try was conceded.

AbusesToilets

Former Former wrote: »

I think Henshaw is a far better rugby player than he's given credit for. He's viewed as some sort of bosher because that's what has been asked of him in a green jersey in recent years. I don't think it's accurate at all tbh.

I think it's unfortunate in a sense that Ringrose came along, as it meant we don't get to Henshaw at his best position. He's far better at 13 imo.

ionadnapokot

aloooof wrote: »

He had a couple of nice offloads against Wales as well in the 6N this year. He may not be a play-maker but he definitely has more in his locker than just a bosh-merchant. (Not that that's what was being suggested by anyone).

Yes good link up with Bundee. Will be interesting to see who Farrell picks.

Ireland had a dearth of talent in 2014 at 12. Henshaw bridged the Dorce gap heroically.

The last ball playing 12 to play for Ireland - Sexton v Aus RWC '11!
Mike Gibson before that?

Frawley may not be the answer but it's a long overdue deviation for Irish rugby.
That second five-eighths type of player fell out of vogue since the Nonu-Smith solidified their partnership in 2008.

errlloyd

ionadnapokot wrote: »

The last ball playing 12 to play for Ireland - Sexton v Aus RWC '11!
Mike Gibson before that?

Paddy Wallace got a good few caps there.

Neil3030

Didn't Ringrose debut at 12 against Australia?

Buer

ionadnapokot wrote: »

The last ball playing 12 to play for Ireland - Sexton v Aus RWC '11!
Mike Gibson before that?

Paddy Wallace deserves a mention. Michael Kiernan was centre for the Lions and Ireland. Paul Dean possibly the best example of a creative centre though.

ionadnapokot

errlloyd wrote: »

Paddy Wallace got a good few caps there.

I meant to a good standard!

ionadnapokot

Neil3030 wrote: »

Didn't Ringrose debut at 12 against Australia?

Oh yeah! Good shout!
Not quite a debut. v NZ he had to go into 12 after Henshaw got his head taken off.
Completely legal tackle though!
Started at 12 the following week v Aus

errlloyd

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I meant to a good standard!

I know what you mean, but he did win a Grandslam and get to a Heinken Cup final playing there.

awec

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I meant to a good standard!

Get out.

Paddy Wallace was class.

ionadnapokot

Buer wrote: »

Paddy Wallace deserves a mention. Michael Kiernan was centre for the Lions and Ireland. Paul Dean possibly the best example of a creative centre though.

My only memory of Dean is watching videos of him at 10 in '85.
But he must of gotten caps at 12 during the Ollie/Ward era?

Mike more of a converted 13 to accommodate Mullen at 13?

ionadnapokot

awec wrote: »

Get out.

Paddy Wallace was class.

....at getting his face mashed!

awec

ionadnapokot wrote: »

....at getting his face mashed!

Paddy Wallace was a better 12 than Johnny Sexton ever was, and if he was in his prime today he'd be the current Irish 12.

ionadnapokot

If you say so!

Former Former

Wallace was a very good 12, but it's hard to see how he'd be ahead of Aki or Henshaw.

Buer

ionadnapokot wrote: »

My only memory of Dean is watching videos of him at 10 in '85.
But he must of gotten caps at 12 during the Ollie/Ward era?

Mike more of a converted 13 to accommodate Mullen at 13?

Dean was 12 when Ireland won the title in 1982. Kiernan was 12 when we won the title in 1983 and started at 12 for the tests in the subsequent Lions tour, a few years before Brendan Mullins came on the scene.

Buer

awec wrote: »

Paddy Wallace was a better 12 than Johnny Sexton ever was, and if he was in his prime today he'd be the current Irish 12.

Agreed. As with a lot of players from Ulster, I feel he's underrated by many in these parts as they don't have the cheerleaders in the media others enjoy. But he would never be getting a starting nod ahead it the current options (which is probably our best ever crop of centres).

He was very talented and a proven test level performer though who would be an asset to any province right now. Him in his prime with someone like Farrell hitting a hard line outside him would be interesting to see.

awec

Former Former wrote: »

Wallace was a very good 12, but it's hard to see how he'd be ahead of Aki or Henshaw.

Well Aki is a totally different beast, and I think that'd be a horses for courses thing.

But Paddy Wallace was better than Robbie Henshaw is at 12.

KH25

Andrew Brace will be reffing the game on Friday. Hopefully the breakdown isn’t such a mess this time.

Richie_Rich89

Yeah_Right wrote: »

It confirms what I have always thought. Connors is a one-trick pony but it is a very good trick. His tackling is outstanding. Once he adds a bit more to his game like carrying, passing, off-loading and poaching, he will be a very good player.

I've seen him listed as 6'5'' and 100 kilos. Don't know if that's accurate but it's probably difficult to be a very effective carrier with that sort of frame.

He showed nice hands for Kelleher's second try away to Glasgow earlier in the season. It's at 1:10 into this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgswjoIDx1I

Buer wrote: »

Connors is a very good player but being excellent at a very specific area of the game leaves you limited. He needs to develop other aspects. At his height and relatively light weight, he should be working hard on his lineout skills or his link play in the back line. He's not a bruiser of a carrier but he could do well to develop the skill that someone like Furlong has who can tip the ball on or redirect play unexpectedly to give his game another dimension.

As it stands, he'll be a tactical player used for specific jobs but will struggle to be involved at the highest level due to those limitations. Even VDF (who is another defensive specialist) worked hard on his timing for carries and his breakdown work to round out his game.

Dan Lydiate was a great player but the game moved on, focus on tackling style was implemented by officials and he was left behind. He hasn't been a regular for Wales since he was 28 (the age VDF turns this coming season).

Rumoured to be starting against Munster.

ionadnapokot

You've some memory! Were you watching in '82 and all?
My only abiding memory of Mike is from an old video of 5 nations in '85. He took all the kicks. Dean at 10.
& that famous Mike Kiernan DG v England
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVhTsqcmZK4

It must be '84 i'm thinking Kiernan played 13. Lenihan quipped he's "a grumpy winger"!

Buer

ionadnapokot wrote: »

You've some memory! Were you watching in '82 and all?
My only abiding memory of Mike is from an old video of 5 nations in '85. He took all the kicks. Dean at 10.
& that famous Mike Kiernan DG v England
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVhTsqcmZK4

It must be '84 i'm thinking Kiernan played 13. Lenihan quipped he's "a grumpy winger"!

I wasn't born! I just like my rugby history and watching old games.

Kiernan swapped between 12 and 13 for a chunk of his career. Played on the wing a bit too.

Buer

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Rumoured to be starting against Munster.

I'd have no issue with that. Munster are hugely dependent on Stander in the ball carrying stakes. Cut him down over and over behind the gain line and it will be a big problem for them.

Richie_Rich89

Buer wrote: »

It's hard to know for sure but I'd broadly agree. Henshaw has solid hands and footballing skills but he's not a playmaker. He's a slightly more skilled version of Horgan himself at 12 when he was at his best. He's certainly working at it though and might further improve in that regard; the touches with the boot against Munster were encouraging.

If we are going to look at others for a ball playing option at 12, there's not really anyone beyond Frawley currently as an option. Maybe Hawkshaw will be but he's slightly undersized which is a concern.

Jimmy O'Brien played 10 up to U20 level so perhaps he could be looked at also but Frawley is the stand out option as a second distributor.

More skilled than Horgan? Don't know about that. Horgan was an excellent passer, and would Henshaw come out with that "Gidley" pass Horgan did for BOD to score in the corner that time?