Unauthorised target shooting

naturalslate

Is target shooting outside of a Garda authorised shooting range in Ireland a criminal offense? What is the legal penalty?

Is allowing another person to engage in unauthorised target shooting on your land a criminal offense? What is the legal penalty?

Cass

naturalslate wrote: »

Is target shooting outside of a Garda authorised shooting range in Ireland is a criminal offense?

Yes.

What is the legal penalty?

Writ to cease in the best case scenario, or worse case is a fine and/or prison time.

Is allowing another person to engage in unauthorised target shooting on your land a criminal offense?

Yes.

What is the legal penalty?

Same as above.

They are the same offense. However the owner of the land would have to be shown to have given permission and be partaking in the target shooting to actually be in trouble otherwise they can claim ignorance of the activities of those he [land owner] gave permission to.

dodderangler

Cass wrote: »

Yes.

Writ to cease in the best case scenario, or worse case is a fine and/or prison time.

Yes.

Same as above.

They are the same offense. However the owner of the land would have to be shown to have given permission and be partaking in the target shooting to actually be in trouble otherwise they can claim ignorance of the activities of those he [land owner] gave permission to.

Not sure I read that correctly. Or just don’t understand.
But does that mean to sight in a rifle you need to go to a range to sight it in?

Cass

Yup.

We've covered this ad nauseam and it always raises a good bit of debate, but the end result is shooting at a target is target shooting and all target shooting relating to pistols and rifles must be done in an authorised range.

The Minister even said after the legislation that he did not intend to made zeroing a rifle outside of a range an offence, but he never amended the legislation to reflect this.

That being said if it's one or even two lads, checking zero via firing a couple of shots each then no Garda would do you, and if some bad bastard tried it's most likely a judge would throw out the case.

DO NOT take that as carte blanche to go shooting, its my opinion and has no legal basis.

However if its a dozen lads firing hundreds of round, with multiple firearms well then you're chance of explaining it away as zeroing takes a nose dive.

Grizzly 45

To be pendantic;
Dept of Justice authorised range.

Cass

Erm, nope. Garda Authorised range.

hedzball

I was once told by a guard you need to zero a rifle on live game only.

True story.

'Hdz

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

Erm, nope. Garda Authorised range.

To be really pendantic...You nneed DOJ range authorisation,Garda inspection and paperwork,County council planning permission.

tac foley

hedzball wrote: »

I was once told by a guard you need to zero a rifle on live game only.

True story.

'Hdz

The story may well be true, but the contents are 100% BS. Are you suggesting that shooting a rifle you've never shot before, with no idea of where it is going when you press the trigger, is the right thing to use on a living creature? My first sentence comment stands - the Garda is a complete buffoon.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

To be really pendantic...You nneed DOJ range authorisation,Garda inspection and paperwork,County council planning permission.

This is probably silly to debate but i cannot stop.

The only form you fill in to apply for range authorisation is the one from An Gardaí. You apply to them, they inspect the range, you pay the fee to them, and they grant the authorisation. DoJ have no input, unless AGS involve them somehow in the process, but if they do it's without the applicants input.

An application for an authorisation for a rifle or pistol
club or shooting range shall be made to the Commissioner, who has delegated his functions to the superintendent of the district where the club or range is located. The application shall be made on the prescribed form FRPC 1 by an authorised officer of the club or the owner or operator of the shooting range, and shall be accompanied by the prescribed fee of €1 ,000. Authorisations granted under this section shall remain in force for 5 years unless revoked

As for planning permission, that is a completely separate issue to authorisation as the county council cannot grant authorisation for the range only permission to build it or buildings on the range.

cavan shooter

Page 24 of the commissioners guidelines

A target shooter tests the zero of a firearm before commencing shooting. A hunter would
normally zero a firearm before commencing a stalk. Where possible, an authorised
shooting range would be the safest location to carry out a zeroing test. Where this is not
possible, it has been the practice to test zero a firearm in an outdoor location. It is vitally
important that any such location is a safe distance from occupied buildings and does not
pose a risk to the safety of members of the public.
When engaged in zeroing, every person in possession of a licensed firearm shall ensure
they maintain clear sight lines from the point of shooting to the target and also that a
suitable backstop is in place to prevent any ricochet or stray shots. All firearm owners
have an obligation to ensure that the zeroing of firearms is carried out in a responsible
manner and the safety of the public is never compromised.

Zero away, but dont engage in target shooting🀔

Cass

We discussed that when the updated guidelines were issued, but, and i don't want to be buzz killington as it's good to see common sense being applied, remember that the Commissioner has said that people should make sure their firearm is properly zeroed (and i'm sure he is drawing from the UK model where it's perfectly fine to do outside of a range) but it's still technically illegal.

As said above it'd be a bad so and so that would do any lad for zeroing their rifle outside of a range, and the Commissioner sees and recognises the need to do this, but just do so with an air of caution as the Commissioner cannot alter legislation.

BryanL

A safe place to zero a rifle or even rifles is allowed under the current guidelines as above.

Wouldn't be the same as an ad hoc target shooting range, which isn't allowed.

Cass

Its not "allowed" as the legislation says it's not. What the guidelines, and remember the key word there - Guidelines, say is the Commissioner sees the need for firearms to be properly zeroed and shooters should do this in any suitable location that is completely safe.

It's also a way for the Commissioner to inform members of AGS that come across a lad, or two, zeroing their rifles to not try and bring charges for shooting outside an authorised range. IOW wasting police and court time on something that is trivial and shouldn't be illegal.

However and again i'm only saying this emphasise the point, there is a big difference between it being legal and AGS turning a blind eye to genuine zeroing.

meathstevie

tac foley wrote: »

The story may well be true, but the contents are 100% BS. Are you suggesting that shooting a rifle you've never shot before, with no idea of where it is going when you press the trigger, is the right thing to use on a living creature? My first sentence comment stands - the Garda is a complete buffoon.

Never mind missing the animal completely and your bullet going over the brow of the hill you were certain to fire into if your sights were properly set....The bullet will bury itself somewhere in the countryside if you're lucky, if you're not it could mean disaster.

BryanL

Cass wrote: »

Its not "allowed" as the legislation says it's not.

So it's illegal to discharge a firearm at an inanimate object on land where someone has permission to shoot? In all cases?

Grizzly 45

[

QUOTE=Cass;110078213]This is probably silly to debate but i cannot stop.

DoJ have no input, unless AGS involve them somehow in the process, but if they do it's without the applicants input.

Nope! The DOJ has an input straight off in the design,and authorisation of the range .The cheif range inspector must be satisfied Re location,design and angles of potential richocets as well as minimum safe distances betwen the range and public roads and dwellings.From personal experiance of trying to set up a range down here in Limerick.Have had Mr G down three times looking at it measuring stuff,and producing some very nice hand drawn plans of all the potential angles of ricohocets.Even down to possible traffic hazards.Concern expressed that the range entry/exit was on a blind bend onto a public road.

As for planning permission, that is a completely separate issue to authorisation as the county council cannot grant authorisation for the range only permission to build it or buildings on the range.

Change of purpose of a building from agriculture, to commercial purposes,or building a new commercial premises is a PP matter that requires public consultation/input as well.We have seen a few ranges fall flat on that one.Even one planned totally underground in Co Limerick.So you do need them authorisating the planing permission as well.Without ANY of those three bodies OKing ,you have an illegal range setup.

naturalslate

naturalslate wrote: »

Is target shooting outside of a Garda authorised shooting range in Ireland a criminal offense? What is the legal penalty?

Is allowing another person to engage in unauthorised target shooting on your land a criminal offense? What is the legal penalty?

Does anyone have a link to the penalties in the relevant legislation?

Cass

BryanL wrote: »

So it's illegal to discharge a firearm at an inanimate object on land where someone has permission to shoot? In all cases?

For the purpose of target shooting, which includes zeroing, yes.

TIs stupid, and the Commissioner has thankfully realsied this and seems to be trying to meet shooters half way by acknowledging the stupidity of it.

My only reason for harping on about it being illegal is so people don't read the above and think it's fine/legal and go shooting with a load of mates for the day (at targets, obviously).

Just use common sense and AGS will meet you half way by not hassling you. Abuse it and they can enforce the law as it stands.

Cass

naturalslate wrote: »

Does anyone have a link to the penalties in the relevant legislation?

What is your interest in this?

New user and the first post we get is "is X illegal?" and "Is Y illegal?"

Couple this thread to the half a dozen others over the last week and a more paranoid person might wonder at the subjects of those threads and the timing (after a large scale terrorist attack using guns, and the subject being raised in the Dáil.)

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Nope! The DOJ has an input straight off ................

I'll stop you there, even though the rest was really nice, because input is not authorisation. Who grants the authorisation An Gardaí or DoJ?

slipperyox

So is planning needed for a range if no buildings (even temporary) are sought?

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

I'll stop you there, even though the rest was really nice, because input is not authorisation. Who grants the authorisation An Gardaí or DoJ?

BOTH...You need both authorisations from both bodies before anything happens.Thats from DOJ and AGS knowledgeable sources and experiance.:) And in the DOJ case its not input,its specification and requirements.

Grizzly 45

slipperyox wrote: »

So is planning needed for a range if no buildings (even temporary) are sought?

Yup...You are going to be building a backstop,side barriers aren't you if it is outdoors?Lucky if you have some natural feature that negates that point,but what about buildings or changing use of existing buildings? The PP can be even worse than dealing with DOJ/AGS,as you have to almost sync all three organisations to one outcome.Apprently if you even have mains power going into a porta cabin or a caravan,that classifies it as a permanent structure .

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Is there any specific reason that zeroing outside of a range has been made illegal? How long has this been the case?

extremetaz

The specific reason is the folks drafting the legislation at the time didn't know a damn thing about hunting and didn't realise there was a need for it; and it's been the case for more than a decade at this stage I think... (can't be bothered to check the date of the appropriate amendment)

Cass

Feck it, i'm bored. You win.

Cass

Clara Hissing Newsprint wrote: »

Is there any specific reason that zeroing outside of a range has been made illegal? How long has this been the case?

In a nutshell:

extremetaz wrote: »

The specific reason is the folks drafting the legislation at the time didn't know a damn thing about hunting and didn't realise there was a need for it; and it's been the case for more than a decade at this stage I think... (can't be bothered to check the date of the appropriate amendment)

It came about in 2007 i believe after the 2006 act. Cannot be sure if thats right, but about then.

To elaborate a little on the point made by extremetaz, they wanted to prohibit the setting up of a temporary range on land that could "disappear" overnight and had no regulation or oversight. They listed target shooting as being shooting at basically everything (naming cans, paper, etc) but never consulted with any of the shooting bodies before drafting the legislation.

The Minister even noted, after, that he had made a mistake in how the legislation was worded but never amended the legislation to allow for zeroing outside of a range.

The new Commissioner, being from Northern Ireland and UK, where such zeroing is permissible, has instructed An Gardaí to use common sense approach to lads that are zeroing. However, as i said above a few times, this cuts both ways and lads must not abuse this "leeway" as it's still technically illegal.

ganmo

now to throw a cat among the pigeons
if someone was caught firing at a target on ground, would they or the land owner be responsible?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Cass wrote: »

In a nutshell:

It came about in 2007 i believe after the 2006 act. Cannot be sure if thats right, but about then.

To elaborate a little on the point made by extremetaz, they wanted to prohibit the setting up of a temporary range on land that could "disappear" overnight and had no regulation or oversight. They listed target shooting as being shooting at basically everything (naming cans, paper, etc) but never consulted with any of the shooting bodies before drafting the legislation.

The Minister even noted, after, that he had made a mistake in how the legislation was worded but never amended the legislation to allow for zeroing outside of a range.

The new Commissioner, being from Northern Ireland and UK, where such zeroing is permissible, has instructed An Gardaí to use common sense approach to lads that are zeroing. However, as i said above a few times, this cuts both ways and lads must not abuse this "leeway" as it's still technically illegal.

Thanks for clearing that up. I sold my rifle back in 2008 or there about so not really in the loop when it comes to the legislation.

I have been shooting targets for a long time, the idea that this is now illegal is just mind boggling. Ranges are fairly scattered, the closest one to my house is about 1 hour. I don't know why anybody would go to the trouble of driving to a range to zero a .22LR. Mad law altogether.

As for the pop up ranges, were they a major issue? I never heard of anything like that before. Even still, if somebody set up a temporary range on their land, how is that causing an issue?

tac foley

'Ranges are fairly scattered, the closest one to my house is about 1 hour. I don't know why anybody would go to the trouble of driving to a range to zero a .22LR.'

I have to give the odd chuckle when I read about the difficulties some of you find trying to locate a nearby range. Back home in Canada my local range - on the Eastern outskirts of Ottawa - is almost 200 miles away. All you have to do is get in a car, leave home, put in a CD and before it's over, you've arrived at the range........

As for not zeroing a .22LR [that seems to be almost beneath contempt to you], are you publicly stating that you'd go buy a rifle, and use it on live animals, without knowing where it actually shot to?

That, Sir, is as near as darnit criminal.

GolfVI

tac foley wrote: »

'Ranges are fairly scattered, the closest one to my house is about 1 hour. I don't know why anybody would go to the trouble of driving to a range to zero a .22LR.'

I have to give the odd chuckle when I read about the difficulties some of you find trying to locate a nearby range. Back home in Canada my local range - on the Eastern outskirts of Ottawa - is almost 200 miles away. All you have to do is get in a car, leave home, put in a CD and before it's over, you've arrived at the range........

As for not zeroing a .22LR [that seems to be almost beneath contempt to you], are you publicly stating that you'd go buy a rifle, and use it on live animals, without knowing where it actually shot to?

That, Sir, is as near as darnit criminal.

I think he means its easy to zero a .22 at home so no reason to drive to a range for it

Cass

ganmo wrote: »

now to throw a cat among the pigeons
if someone was caught firing at a target on ground, would they or the land owner be responsible?

They would.

The land owner can plead ignorance, say your trespassing, and unless he is shooting with you will have committed no offence.

Clara Hissing Newsprint wrote: »

I have been shooting targets for a long time, the idea that this is now illegal is just mind boggling.

Not really "just now", it's been for over a decade, but i get ya.

Ranges are fairly scattered, the closest one to my house is about 1 hour.

They can be money holes and definitely are time sinks. Worse than being an RFD.

I don't know why anybody would go to the trouble of driving to a range to zero a .22LR. Mad law altogether.

I'd imagine most non members wouldn't. The Commissioner's approach make this lot less hassle-some.

As for the pop up ranges, were they a major issue?

Couldn't tell ya.

I do know of lads that wanted to start a range, went about doing it the right way and through impatience (allowing shooting before all the i's were dotted and t's cross) were shut down and then the biggest one was a group of lads shooting away in the mountains on a regular basis and then posting about it on social media.

That got them a cease and desist writ with the warning of fines/prison if they continued.

I never heard of anything like that before.

They were not exactly prolific, but it involved guns so, you know, won't someone think of the chlidren. :rolleyes:

Even still, if somebody set up a temporary range on their land, how is that causing an issue?

Unauthorised range, and hence target shooting outside of such. Both of which are offences against the act.

If you mean what harm in so much as "sure what harm", then i suppose it could be argued that there are a lack of sufficient backstops, no trained ROs/RCOs, safety officers (a lot of people walking around with/using gun), no flags in the surrounding area to notify walkers of shooting or where the danger zone is, no insurance, etc, etc.

I can see the need for ranges, but some of the laws are an ass and the zeroing one is close to the top of the list for me.

Grizzly 45

Clara Hissing Newsprint wrote: »

As for the pop up ranges, were they a major issue? I never heard of anything like that before. Even still, if somebody set up a temporary range on their land, how is that causing an issue?

It wasn't that sort of an issue.I think it was more lads going to some local spot,or using some spot on their land and fireing away hundreds of rounds a weekend and there not being sufficent backstops or saftey features,so rounds could be going anywhere.
It is intresting to note this wasnt a problem until CF handguns and rifles started to make a comeback in 2006.Then with paranoia of IPSC and all that,I suppose the case of "IRA and criminals using this...."excuse hit in again with then Min Mc Dowell who wrote this legislation....Proably while doodleing on his notepad on some idle Wednes day in the Dail.:rolleyes:

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

tac foley wrote: »

'Ranges are fairly scattered, the closest one to my house is about 1 hour. I don't know why anybody would go to the trouble of driving to a range to zero a .22LR.'

I have to give the odd chuckle when I read about the difficulties some of you find trying to locate a nearby range. Back home in Canada my local range - on the Eastern outskirts of Ottawa - is almost 200 miles away. All you have to do is get in a car, leave home, put in a CD and before it's over, you've arrived at the range........

It's relative. A 2 hour round trip to zero a rifle which would take 5 minutes in the field behind my house. I am not sure what Canada has to do with this really.

tac foley wrote: »

As for not zeroing a .22LR [that seems to be almost beneath contempt to you], are you publicly stating that you'd go buy a rifle, and use it on live animals, without knowing where it actually shot to?

That, Sir, is as near as darnit criminal.

You need to take a step back and read between the lines. Beneath contempt? How rude! How can you insinuate such a thing from my post? Nowhere in my post did I say I would "buy a rifle, use it on live animals, without knowing where it actually shot to". Where did you come up with that? Magician?

tac foley

Yup, I guess it comes over as rude. I'm known to be less than friendly to people who sound to me as though they are trying to find a way to get around the law where they live.

You seemed to be aggrieved that you have to drive a WHOLE hour to get to a rifle range; I was pointing out that where I live some of the year my local rifle range is the width of Ireland away, and we go there and back, AND shoot, in a day.

ejg

Even in Germany they changed the laws/rules recently and it is now perfectly in order to fire a few check/zero rounds on your hunting permissions. Maybe the Irish should follow/take that as an example? Most of us are hours away from any range. It is not right to practice on animals which might be the only legal way to check point of impact...
edi

tac foley

ejg wrote: »

Even in Germany they changed the laws/rules recently and it is now perfectly in order to fire a few check/zero rounds on your hunting permissions. Maybe the Irish should follow/take that as an example? Most of us are hours away from any range. It is not right to practice on animals which might be the only legal way to check point of impact...
edi

Edi - I don't believe that the Garda actually said that shooting to zero on live animals was the way to go, just that in his iggerance there seemed to be no other option, which is, of course plainly ridiculous.

Benny mcc

hedzball wrote: »

I was once told by a guard you need to zero a rifle on live game only.

True story.

'Hdz

I was once told by a guard means I was once told by a guart, not this is how I zero my rifle!! Some of the stuff guards have told me over the years should never be repeated. Just because they are guards don't make them smart. In my experience :-)

Benny mcc

Back to the point. Who is going to travel an hour to zero a rifle when you have plenty of ground to shoot on?? Not me and honesty I don't think anyone here would either.

ejg

I don't think it was the intention of the law to outright forbid people firing a shot at a piece of paper to check zero. I think it was an unintended biproduct of not allowing everyone to open their own private shooting ranges wherever they want. (Then again thinking is not knowing...)
edi

Cass

Benny mcc wrote: »

Who is going to travel an hour to zero a rifle when you have plenty of ground to shoot on?? .

I prefer to use the range. Known distances, no need to worry about anyone walking up on you, no need to worry about AGS, are you skirting the law, etc.

tac foley

Nailed.

BattleCorp

ejg wrote: »

Even in Germany they changed the laws/rules recently and it is now perfectly in order to fire a few check/zero rounds on your hunting permissions. Maybe the Irish should follow/take that as an example?

I'm always very very nervous when the authorities go about changing firearms laws.

Yes, it would be of benefit if they changed the law to allow zeroing outside of an authorised range but what would we lose in the process? You can be sure that they would give with one hand and take away with the other.

Grizzly 45

In fairness,with what is now written into the guidelines should make this a less of an issue.You can do it so long as it is safe manner and area,and you are not extracting the urine with it either.

BattleCorp

Guidelines aren't law and that could all change with a new commissioner and a new set of guidelines.

But yeah, hopefully those instructions in the guidelines will allow a more common sense approach.

kowloon

Cass wrote: »

However and again i'm only saying this emphasise the point, there is a big difference between it being legal and AGS turning a blind eye to genuine zeroing.

There's just too much of this ****e in Ireland. Laws are meaningless if they're not enforced and if enforcing them is stupid they need to not be laws. Considering the amount of time and bureaucracy involved in coming up with it all the end result may aswell be written in crayon.

1349

kowloon wrote: »

There's just too much of this ****e in Ireland. Laws are meaningless if they're not enforced and if enforcing them is stupid they need to not be laws. Considering the amount of time and bureaucracy involved in coming up with it all the end result may aswell be written in crayon.

This is not by accident. It's called anarcho-tyranny.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Managerial_state#Anarchy_and_tyranny


Career criminals with dozens of convictions get suspended sentences, but the state reserves the ability to jail you for zeroing a legally held rifle, or posting wrongthink on social media.

JohnFitz2332

1349 wrote: »

This is not by accident. It's called anarcho-tyranny.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Managerial_state#Anarchy_and_tyranny


Career criminals with dozens of convictions get suspended sentences, but the state reserves the ability to jail you for zeroing a legally held rifle, or posting wrongthink on social media.

I wouldn't pay much heed to anything propogated by Samuel f***ing Francis, pal. A horrible racist with twisted ideas of libertarianism.

Grizzly 45

Stalin,Hitler and Mao had a the odd valid point too.:p