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Patrick Quirke -Guilty
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Yeah I remember the coroner saying a vehicle could have been used. But we know that there is a cattle grate about halfway down the drive way and Lowry always stayed awake until she heard Ryans van driving over it. So if Quirke showed up in his own car and knocked him over then he would have had to cross that grate twice whereas Lowry testified she only heard one vehicle cross it that morning. If Quirke broke into Ryans van and hot wired it you'd imagine that there would be a lot of noise as the engine revved towards him, the thud of his body hitting the bonnet ect. Its also less likely he would have been knocked out straight away (like a blow to the head with an iron bar) and would have been screaming in pain if he was knocked over.
Using a vehicle as a weapon could have happened but you'd just imagine it would be considerably noisier than approaching him from behind with an iron bar.
And yet it is likley that PQ had turned up earlier that morning than expected. We dont know for sure that ML heard him arrive or otherwise. There was some talk of an old jeep on the farm afaik. Could that have been used and gotten rid of? Or a tractor perhaps? The van wasn't used as the impact of the hitting so would have been evident.
Possibly as simple as PQ serving violently as he passed BR. Hit hard enough and he would have gone down like a stone imo. Did ML take any notice of the sound of a tractor running that morning? Would she have thought it out of place?0 -
But yes it is possible to knock someone out cold in one blow and from there there they wont make any noise. But also there was evidence that he hit him several times, there was other hits to the head and iirc he had broken ribs and a broken thigh bone too. Its still a bit strange that she didn't hear a thing, even a dead weight body being dragged across gravel for hiding it is going to make a noise.
If she heard it the whole case would have ended soon after. It only became a drawn out missing person case because she didn't hear it. He got lucky initially.
Is there a chance that Quirke asked him to enter a farm outbuilding on any pretext, taking him out of hearing range, then attacked and left him there possibly under a tarp or something until he was able to come back? Again pushing his luck but it seems to have served him well initially.0 -
Yeah when I first heard the evidence I wondered how Mary Lowry did not hear anything given we know she was awake in bed at the time. It would be interesting to know how far the van was parked from her bedroom window, that is assuming Quirke attacked him from behind at he was near the van or getting into it.
But yes it is possible to knock someone out cold in one blow and from there there they wont make any noise. But also there was evidence that he hit him several times, there was other hits to the head and iirc he had broken ribs and a broken thigh bone too. Its still a bit strange that she didn't hear a thing, even a dead weight body being dragged across gravel for hiding it is going to make a noise.
Reading between the lines it seems there was an incapacitating hit a sly, craven silent slug that caused unconsciousness or a comatose. Further beatings or vehicular assault could have taken place later to finish the job.
Awful stuff and no way for a decent human to have their life ended, the horror furthered by an undignified stripping of clothing and unemphatic & disrespectful disposal of what we all hope was a by then a deceased person.0 -
strandroad wrote: »Is there a chance that Quirke asked him to enter a farm outbuilding on any pretext, taking him out of hearing range, then attacked and left him there possibly under a tarp or something until he was able to come back? Again pushing his luck but it seems to have served him well initially.
Thats actually a good theory, he could have asked Ryan to help him in an outbuilding to hold something up while he fixed it and attack him swiftly with a blunt instrument. Luring him somewhere away from her bedroom window would have meant there was less noise in the act and also no reason to have to move the body immediately, he could have just covered it up in the outbuilding and then moved it to the run off tank later when he knew Lowry would be off the property, as she was every Friday morning.
It still leaves the conundrum of Quirke then driving Ryans van to the woods and not getting seen inside the van on the way there or walking back the few kilometres back from the woods after dumping the van. Perhaps he moved his own car to the woods in the dead of night and walked back home before committing the murder and then swapping from van to car at the woods car park. I just feel that if he had walked back on the road from the woods to the farm at 7am-ish in a rural farming community he would have got seen by someone. It was summertime too so plain daylight at that hour.John_Rambo wrote: »Awful stuff and no way for a decent human to have their life ended, the horror furthered by an undignified stripping of clothing and unemphatic & disrespectful disposal of what we all hope was a by then a deceased person.
Ive never understood why he stripped him naked, it was insult on top of injury. Its really bizarre, completely disrespectful too.0 -
Thats actually a good theory, he could have asked Ryan to help him in an outbuilding to hold something up while he fixed it and attack him swiftly with a blunt instrument. Luring him somewhere away from her bedroom window would have meant there was less noise in the act and also no reason to have to move the body immediately, he could have just covered it up in the outbuilding and then moved it to the run off tank later when he knew Lowry would be off the property, as she was every Friday morning.
It still leaves the conundrum of Quirke then driving Ryans van to the woods and not getting seen inside the van on the way there or walking back the few kilometres back from the woods after dumping the van. Perhaps he moved his own car to the woods in the dead of night and walked back home before committing the murder and then swapping from van to car at the woods car park.
Ive never understood why he stripped him naked, it was insult on top of injury. Its really bizarre, completely disrespectful too.
He stripped the body to reduce the possibility of DNA being found on the clothes.0 -
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Thats actually a good theory, he could have asked Ryan to help him in an outbuilding to hold something up while he fixed it and attack him swiftly with a blunt instrument. Luring him somewhere away from her bedroom window would have meant there was less noise in the act and also no reason to have to move the body immediately, he could have just covered it up in the outbuilding and then moved it to the run off tank later when he knew Lowry would be off the property, as she was every Friday morning.
It still leaves the conundrum of Quirke then driving Ryans van to the woods and not getting seen inside the van on the way there or walking back the few kilometres back from the woods after dumping the van. Perhaps he moved his own car to the woods in the dead of night and walked back home before committing the murder and then swapping from van to car at the woods car park. I just feel that if he had walked back on the road from the woods to the farm at 7am-ish in a rural farming community he would have got seen by someone. It was summertime too so plain daylight at that hour.
Ive never understood why he stripped him naked, it was insult on top of injury. Its really bizarre, completely disrespectful too.
Killer's DNA would have been all over BR's clothes.0 -
The decision that came back to hit him. We all know he has a right not to go into the box but surely a jury would say to themselves "what has he to hide?"
Its not that he was an uneducated man lacking in intelligence. He was a well off farmer who was involved in property speculation. He would be well able to handle himself under cross examination.
It was on Legal Advice that he opted not to go on the stand.And you can be sure as night follows day, there was good reason that his Legal team did not want him on it...0 -
Thats actually a good theory, he could have asked Ryan to help him in an outbuilding to hold something up while he fixed it and attack him swiftly with a blunt instrument. Luring him somewhere away from her bedroom window would have meant there was less noise in the act and also no reason to have to move the body immediately, he could have just covered it up in the outbuilding and then moved it to the run off tank later when he knew Lowry would be off the property, as she was every Friday morning.
It still leaves the conundrum of Quirke then driving Ryans van to the woods and not getting seen inside the van on the way there or walking back the few kilometres back from the woods after dumping the van. Perhaps he moved his own car to the woods in the dead of night and walked back home before committing the murder and then swapping from van to car at the woods car park. I just feel that if he had walked back on the road from the woods to the farm at 7am-ish in a rural farming community he would have got seen by someone. It was summertime too so plain daylight at that hour.
Ive never understood why he stripped him naked, it was insult on top of injury. Its really bizarre, completely disrespectful too.
Took a look at the route between Bansha woods and the townland- there's a backroad just off the main Bansha - Tipperary road which would take about 20 min by bicycle. Could he have thrown a bike in the van and got back without anyone taking any particular notice. Would also explain how might have turned up but wasn't heard by ML at 6.30 in the morning around the time BR left the house.
The whole clothes thing indicates the murderer was Forensically aware imo0 -
Ive never understood why he stripped him naked, it was insult on top of injury. Its really bizarre, completely disrespectful too.
I'm guessing a reduction of the killers DNA residue on the disease's clothing. An unfortunate & more common deliberate action with killers that google previous media highlighted killings who feel that are cleverer than their equally narcissistic predecessors.0 -
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Lowry said that the intyerval between Moonlight leaving and the noise of the drid was longer than usual. That would allow for Moonlight to be attacked and the attacker driving him out in Moonlight's own van.
iirc from evidence Lowry said that she heard a vehicle crossing the cattle grate somewhere between 3 and 10 minutes after Ryan had left her bedroom. It was longer than usual but still those 7 minutes would have been long enough for him to have killed him, cover/hide the body and then drive away.
Its just a shame that there was never any DNA/finger printing done on the van until just a few weeks before the trial began. What they did find was deemed to be unidentifiable. Had it been done immediately after his disappearance then the Gardai would have proof that Quike was in the van and the whole saga would have ended there.
In many ways Quirke did commit the perfect crime. The Gardai seemed to be assuming suicide but no body was ever found. Lowry not telling the Gardai immediately that she had had an affair with Quirke before she was with Ryan meant they didnt have full information. They did however know that Quirke had assaulted Lowry, they did know he was caught on CCTV snooping in her windows and stealing her knickers from the line. Its bizarre that they didnt dig deeper, from what I can see he was never even questioned as a potential suspect in the direct aftermath. To them it was a missing persons case and nothing more until 22 months later the body shows up in the tank.0 -
John_Rambo wrote: »I'm guessing a reduction of the killers DNA residue on the disease's clothing. An unfortunate & more common deliberate action with killers that google previous media highlighted killings who feel that are cleverer than their equally narcissistic predecessors.
Yeah I would say thats it. He likely googled other murders and learnt that his own DNA would be on Ryans clothes even years after the event. So he stripped him naked afterwards and burnt the clothes to cover his tracks.0 -
I believe the coroner also stated that a vehicle could have been used. The injuries were consistent with either afaik. Is it possible that another farm vehicle was used to injure and kill. BR may well have been surprised by PQ veering at him with a vehicle and he wouldn't have known what hit him tbh.
I heard a story last week that in the trial they spoke of the relationship between Pat Quirke and Mary Lowrys son.Quirke bought him a car to drive around the fields.
The story was that this car was mentioned in the trial because it was used to run over Bobby Ryan.
But i think ML woul have heard this.
I must check google maps for the layout of the farm0 -
iirc from evidence Lowry said that she heard a vehicle crossing the cattle grate somewhere between 3 and 10 minutes after Ryan had left her bedroom. It was longer than usual but still those 7 minutes would have been long enough for him to have killed him, cover/hide the body and then drive away.
Its just a shame that there was never any DNA/finger printing done on the van until just a few weeks before the trial began. What they did find was deemed to be unidentifiable. Had it been done immediately after his disappearance then the Gardai would have proof that Quike was in the van and the whole saga would have ended there.
In many ways Quirke did commit the perfect crime. The Gardai seemed to be assuming suicide but no body was ever found. Lowry not telling the Gardai immediately that she had had an affair with Quirke before she was with Ryan meant they didnt have full information. They did however know that Quirke had assaulted Lowry, they did know he was caught on CCTV snooping in her windows and stealing her knickers from the line. Its bizarre that they didnt dig deeper, from what I can see he was never even questioned as a potential suspect in the direct aftermath. To them it was a missing persons case and nothing more until 22 months later the body shows up in the tank.
Given the level of planning and detail that went into this murder...I can't see Quirke doing anything without wearing gloves.. so that would rule out fingerprints...and as for DNA? I don't know......had it been inspected a day or two after the murder, maybe? But 22 mts later? and would be interesting to know, who was using the van during those 22 mth's ?0 -
In many ways Quirke did commit the perfect crime. The Gardai seemed to be assuming suicide but no body was ever found. Lowry not telling the Gardai immediately that she had had an affair with Quirke before she was with Ryan meant they didnt have full information. They did however know that Quirke had assaulted Lowry, they did know he was caught on CCTV snooping in her windows and stealing her knickers from the line. Its bizarre that they didnt dig deeper, from what I can see he was never even questioned as a potential suspect in the direct aftermath. To them it was a missing persons case and nothing more until 22 months later the body shows up in the tank.
If only Mary Lowry allowed him to continue farming her land there's a chance no one would never know. The body would not hold any evidence, if ever found at all.0 -
The alleged assault on Mary and the snooping in windows only happened after Bobby Ryan was missing a period of time, months or a year even.iirc from evidence Lowry said that she heard a vehicle crossing the cattle grate somewhere between 3 and 10 minutes after Ryan had left her bedroom. It was longer than usual but still those 7 minutes would have been long enough for him to have killed him, cover/hide the body and then drive away.
Its just a shame that there was never any DNA/finger printing done on the van until just a few weeks before the trial began. What they did find was deemed to be unidentifiable. Had it been done immediately after his disappearance then the Gardai would have proof that Quike was in the van and the whole saga would have ended there.
In many ways Quirke did commit the perfect crime. The Gardai seemed to be assuming suicide but no body was ever found. Lowry not telling the Gardai immediately that she had had an affair with Quirke before she was with Ryan meant they didnt have full information. They did however know that Quirke had assaulted Lowry, they did know he was caught on CCTV snooping in her windows and stealing her knickers from the line. Its bizarre that they didnt dig deeper, from what I can see he was never even questioned as a potential suspect in the direct aftermath. To them it was a missing persons case and nothing more until 22 months later the body shows up in the tank.To thine own self be true
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Well as it stands, he had 22 mths to fully dispose of the body...and I for one can't understand why he never did...maybe if Mary allowed him to continue the lease indefinitely, it would not have come to light.... It's really strange, because he seems to have had everything else planned down to the smallest detail. Of course, he may have felt that even though the Guard's were still officially treating it as a missing person case, privately they may have suspected it as being a murder case ( with out the body) and he was under suspicion, and so afraid to make any move disposing of the body.strandroad wrote: »If only Mary Lowry allowed him to continue farming her land there's a chance no one would never know. The body would not hold any evidence, if ever found at all.0 -
Given the level of planning and detail that went into this murder...I can't see Quirke doing anything without wearing gloves.. so that would rule out fingerprints...and as for DNA? I don't know......had it been inspected a day or two after the murder, maybe? But 22 mts later? and would be interesting to know, who was using the van during those 22 mth's ?
Yeah Id say there was quite a bit of planning that went in to it and he would definitely of had gloves on. Nonetheless DNA could have gotten in the van from excretions of his sweat, flaked off skin cells or a bit of hair.
I've no ideas where the van was for those 22 months. If the Gardai were not considering it murder then maybe it was given back to the family? They did eventually test the van a few weeks before the trial began but that was way too late. We do have Michelle Ryan on record as saying that the seat in the van was in a different position to how Ryan drove it and that it was in a gear that he never left it is. She herself drove the van on occasion so she would have known his habits. So it does sounds like someone else definitely drove it to the woods, of that there is little doubt.0 -
Yeah Id say there was quite a bit of planning that went in to it and he would definitely of had gloves on. Nonetheless DNA could have gotten in the van from excretions of his sweat, flaked off skin cells or a bit of hair.
I've no ideas where the van was for those 22 months. If the Gardai were not considering it murder then maybe it was given back to the family? They did eventually test the van a few weeks before the trial began but that was way too late. We do have Michelle Ryan on record as saying that the seat in the van was in a different position to how Ryan drove it and that it was in a gear that he never left it is. She herself drove the van on occasion so she would have known his habits. So it does sounds like someone else definitely drove it to the woods, of that there is little doubt.
Yes. would imagine that it would have been taken immediately by either the son or daughter, and would have been washed and cleaned many times in the intervening 22 mths...after which no use in looking for DNA in it.0 -
Mary Lowry told ex Garda Costello when they met at the garage in Bansha, that the van was parked in "the back yard".Yeah when I first heard the evidence I wondered how Mary Lowry did not hear anything given we know she was awake in bed at the time. It would be interesting to know how far the van was parked from her bedroom window, that is assuming Quirke attacked him from behind at he was near the van or getting into it.
But yes it is possible to knock someone out cold in one blow and from there there they wont make any noise. But also there was evidence that he hit him several times, there was other hits to the head and iirc he had broken ribs and a broken thigh bone too. Its still a bit strange that she didn't hear a thing, even a dead weight body being dragged across gravel for hiding it is going to make a noise.
Probably out of sight of prying eyes.I took that to mean out in the farmyard behind the house.
Any noise from that area may not be heard in the house
He may not have had to move the body just then, just concealed till he was able to come back later to dispose of it0 -
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Well as it stands, he had 22 mths to fully dispose of the body...and I for one can't understand why he never did...maybe if Mary allowed him to continue the lease indefinitely, it would not have come to light.... It's really strange, because he seems to have had everything else planned down to the smallest detail. Of course, he may have felt that even though the Guard's were still officially treating it as a missing person case, privately they may have suspected it as being a murder case ( with out the body) and he was under suspicion, and so afraid to make any move disposing of the body.
I'd say he was quite happy with where the body was until he realised the lease was about to end.
Burying it anyplace would be dodgy , it could be found by dog walkers or the like,
and he would not have as much control .
Where it was it could be checked every day,and maybe there was a certain amount of 'trophyism' if there's such a word, or gloating if you like.
Then the panic set in and a new plan had to be formulated, which was not as well thought through as the actual murder plan.0 -
mikeymouse wrote: »Mary Lowry told ex Garda Costello when they met at the garage in Bansha, that the van was parked in "the back yard".
Probably out of sight of prying eyes.I took that to mean out in the farmyard behind the house.
Any noise from that area may not be heard in the house
He may not have had to move the body just then, just concealed till he was able to come back later to dispose of it
Lowry stated that she did not want her children knowing the Moonlight was overnighting. That would mean the van was parked out of view of the house overnight.0 -
Moonlight bought them the car.I heard a story last week that in the trial they spoke of the relationship between Pat Quirke and Mary Lowrys son.Quirke bought him a car to drive around the fields.
The story was that this car was mentioned in the trial because it was used to run over Bobby Ryan.
But i think ML woul have heard this.
I must check google maps for the layout of the farm0 -
If quirke had never opened the tomb and just left someone else find the body at some stage, there's a good chance he'd have got off Scot free.0
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brendanwalsh wrote: »If quirke had never opened the tomb and just left someone else find the body at some stage, there's a good chance he'd have got off Scot free.
Not so sure about that .... the damage to the body would show Bobby Ryan was murdered, so there would be the same investigation as before.
Still can't figure out why Quirke didn't move the body somewhere else - dump it in the sea or something.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »Not so sure about that .... the damage to the body would show Bobby Ryan was murdered, so there would be the same investigation as before.
Still can't figure out why Quirke didn't move the body somewhere else - dump it in the sea or something.
Going by his Google searches on his home computer he probably wasn't the brightest.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »Not so sure about that .... the damage to the body would show Bobby Ryan was murdered, so there would be the same investigation as before.
Still can't figure out why Quirke didn't move the body somewhere else - dump it in the sea or something.
Two years in a watery grave means that normal aerobic break down is delayed - the matter of removing a very decomposed body would not be without some difficulties. Bar the overpowering smell of decomposition within the airtight tank - there would be a real risk of the body falling apart if removed. I believe something similar happened when the body was finally removed with an arm becoming dettached afaik during the process. Anyone removing the body would have risked this happening and forensic evidence being left behind. Then he would have had to transport and hide the body somewhere else. Not saying it was impossible - but it is something imo which would be very difficult.
Account of recovering the remains in an article here and some of the difficulties encountered
https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0429/1046307-quirke-the-murder-trial-that-shocked-the-country/
I think perhaps he opted for the 'finding' of the body because he really believed he could pull it off.0 -
Having put it in the tank, I think it would be nigh on impossible to take it out again,without help ,Deleted User wrote: »Not so sure about that .... the damage to the body would show Bobby Ryan was murdered, so there would be the same investigation as before.
Still can't figure out why Quirke didn't move the body somewhere else - dump it in the sea or something.
or at least without having to rip the whole cover off the tank like the Gardai did.
The removable slabs appeared to be only about 18ins or at most 2ft square and the body would have been back under the fixed concrete cover.
Also ,if dumped elsewhere it would always be on his mind that someone might find it.
Maybe he just kept it close by as a kind of trophy, or to keep an eye on it.
It would have been difficult to dispose of the body elsewhere, outside the farm in the period immediately after Ryan was reported missing.
He was lucky the Gardai asked only him about the number of tanks on the farm.0 -
“Finding”the body in his own tank.....are you for real.....Two years in a watery grave means that normal aerobic break down is delayed - the matter of removing a very decomposed body would not be without some difficulties. Bar the overpowering smell of decomposition within the airtight tank - there would be a real risk of the body falling apart if removed. I believe something similar happened when the body was finally removed with an arm becoming dettached afaik during the process. PQ removing the body would have risked this happening and forensic evidence being left behind. Then he would have had to transport and hide the body somewhere else. Not saying it was impossible - but it is something imo which would be very difficult.
I think he opted for the 'finding' of the body
because he really believed he could pull it off.0 -
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