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Luas Green Line - Bray extension

marno21

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/luas-line-to-bray-may-serve-wicklow-boom-j92tg0jl8

This is in the news again. As it stands, planning on this is to begin when TII free up staff currently working on Metrolink in the coming years.

Of course, this will add considerable pressure to the Green Line north of Sandyford, in addition to the mess that is the M11 and the heavily constrained DART line.

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L1011

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Those fields are the old dump . Is that mature enough to be built on yet?

I did the most basic digging in to this before - the stadium in Reading was built on a dump that had been capped even more recently than Dunsink was; but different waste loads may have gone in.

All the Luas extensions in world are fine even if they duplicate other stuff somewhat - once we actually have a network. Resilience and options are good things. But I'd consider F (with a redesigned, but still redundant route to the city centre - not sharing with Red after Fatima) a priority over any other Luas extensions myself currently; followed by Bray, Ringsend, Finglas in that order. Possibly the suggested extension of F to the DART somewhere to the SE could be done at the same time.

BTW The idea of heading towards Blanch isn't that crazy, it is basically what Metro West was planned to do.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

2033 before anything could potentially be built. The Luas Finglas could be built by then. I've no problem with a second line up that alignment but you're probably looking at 2040 at the earliest

Build it up Ratoath Road?

You have the existing area of Finglas to the West and land to the East where a future SDZ would go once the land is ready.

I think it will be quiet a while before we see this extension, what with everything else to do.

LeinsterDub

Idbatterim wrote: »

by the time this line is designed and might actually have spades in the ground, that land would still be unsuitable?

the landfill closed in 2003, realistically it could be what? 2033 before this luas would be built?

2033 before anything could potentially be built. The Luas Finglas could be built by then. I've no problem with a second line up that alignment but you're probably looking at 2040 at the earliest

Idbatterim

LeinsterDub wrote: »

But they can't so this is a pointless argument. Which leaves us in the position of duplicating the Dart line to blanch, extending to the N2 via the north road or doing nothing

by the time this line is designed and might actually have spades in the ground, that land would still be unsuitable?

the landfill closed in 2003, realistically it could be what? 2033 before this luas would be built?

LeinsterDub

Idbatterim wrote: »

If they are so concerned about price, dont built it! The value IF they can build over that land and provide thousands of apartments, is a far better investment. I'd take everything with a large pinch of salt from the councils here!

Theyll say whatever suits their agenda.

But they can't so this is a pointless argument. Which leaves us in the position of duplicating the Dart line to blanch, extending to the N2 via the north road or doing nothing

Idbatterim

If they are so concerned about price, dont built it! The value IF they can build over that land and provide thousands of apartments, is a far better investment. I'd take everything with a large pinch of salt from the councils here!

Theyll say whatever suits their agenda.

If there are no major issues building over it and the land around it could be used for housing in a reasonable time frame. it would be my far preferred route! Then again, I am not a politician looking for vote or the NTA trying to sell this project ! I reckon votes are easier to find by serving the existing sprawl, than looking for votes from the animals grazing those fields currently! Cant wait for years of debating which route to take and all of the nimbyism going near finglas. Several public consultations etc..

LeinsterDub

Idbatterim wrote: »

no idea!

Dunsink landfill finally closed as a municipal waste site on Christmas Eve 2003.The Fingal Draft Development Plan (2017-2023) in its submission draws attention to Dunsink Lane and its environs. It noted that even though “the remediation of Dunsink Lane is now complete it will still require long term management and monitoring of leachate and atmospheric emissions”.

Computer says no.

Replace 'green fields' in your original with 'methane leaking and asbestos filled fields'. So actually going via Finglas would be cheaper than this nightmare alignment
http://thecircular.org/legacy-landfills-still-a-concern-for-the-finglas-community/

Idbatterim

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Those fields are the old dump . Is that mature enough to be built on yet?

no idea!

LeinsterDub

bk wrote: »

I assume with the assumption of turning those green fields into a SDZ and building thousands of apartments close to the stops. It does make sense.

Those fields are the old dump . Is that mature enough to be built on yet?

LeinsterDub

Idbatterim wrote: »

running it across green field would be much cheaper. That low density sprawl in finglas, is a waste serving it. How many traffic conflicts will there be if they go to the village route? Going greenfield,it will still be in reasonable walking distance to most if not all of Finglas? Build it across green field, there must be several hundred acres there. Then continue it up northwest, to the proposed N2 P&R.

Of course it would be cheaper , but that's not the point. The point is so serve Finglas, I'm not sure I'm following your route in my mind but it's serving basically no one. Blanch will be served by Dart. It won't go into the village it will be going straight up the north road so 1 maybe 2 traffic conflicts. Define walking distance? The Cabra Luas is closer to Finglas Village than Dunsink Lane

Idbatterim wrote: »

running it across green field would be much cheaper. That low density sprawl in finglas, is a waste serving it. How many traffic conflicts will there be if they go to the village route? Going greenfield,it will still be in reasonable walking distance to most if not all of Finglas? Build it across green field, there must be several hundred acres there. Then continue it up northwest, to the proposed N2 P&R.

I assume with the assumption of turning those green fields into a SDZ and building thousands of apartments close to the stops. It does make sense.

Idbatterim

LeinsterDub wrote: »

That would be a Luas to Blanch not Finglas and is duplicating a lot of the M3 parkway line. The NTA's intention is for the Luas to finish at an N2 park and ride.

running it across green field would be much cheaper. That low density sprawl in finglas, is a waste serving it. How many traffic conflicts will there be if they go to the village route? Going greenfield,it will still be in reasonable walking distance to most if not all of Finglas? Build it across green field, there must be several hundred acres there. Then continue it up northwest, to the proposed N2 P&R.

there is another few hundred acres around the National aquatic centre, connect that with a driverless shuttle bus with a bridge over motorway to connect at the luas, inside the m50...

LeinsterDub

Idbatterim wrote: »

run the finglas line roughly where dunsink observatory is, high density apartments either side. Over the M50 and terminate in blanch shopping centre, with a massive multi storey park and ride? they could have another P&R just inside or outside M50

That would be a Luas to Blanch not Finglas and is duplicating a lot of the M3 parkway line. The NTA's intention is for the Luas to finish at an N2 park and ride.

Idbatterim

run the finglas line roughly where dunsink observatory is, high density apartments either side. Over the M50 and terminate in blanch shopping centre, with a massive multi storey park and ride? they could have another P&R just inside or outside M50

Kevtherev1 wrote: »

The idiotic decision not to extend metro to Sandyford until the 2030s means the LUAS extension to Bray wont happen until the 2040s. We should have been building a second metro line in the 2030s and third metro line 2040s.

Well I wouldn't be surprised if the extension to Bray was rolled into the Metro south project. So that they both happen in parallel. It would help strengthen the case for the Metro South upgrade.

I'd also expect the Finglas extension to happen well before that and probably a Northern extension to the Metro north of Swords to also happen in parallel. Both relatively easy, straightforward and cheap projects (above ground, mostly through fields) with lots of oppurtunity for new housing.

Kevtherev1

Any LUAS extension to Bray is totally off the table, until Metro is extended to Sandyford or Beyond. Its is that simple, no construction until the metro is extended.

The idiotic decision not to extend metro to Sandyford until the 2030s means the LUAS extension to Bray wont happen until the 2040s. We should have been building a second metro line in the 2030s and third metro line 2040s.

hmmm

The NTA have waved their magic wand, and now apparently the LUAS line can deliver metro-like capacity without being upgraded. Just like that.

Excuse me while I don't believe this. LUAS outbound is full until Dundrum stop for peak hours, and the proposed Metro will stop at Charlemont. The Brides Glen to Sandford section is about to see massive amounts of new building, and the line is criss-crossed by access to housing estates and shops.

Adding a Bray connection would be madness.

prunudo

I'm conscious of going off topic, so apologises in advance. I just fear that without a proper solution to both the n11 and the single track trainline that a greenline extension to Bray will just attract more people driving their private cars to use it.
I think as a route it makes sense and will be great to link the dart line with Sandyford and Metrolink. In theory it could remove a lot of cars off the m11/m50 as it would be a great alternative for commuters but there needs to be proper thought in how best to get passengers to the stations without clogging the already stretched road network.

marno21

I have started a thread about the Bray-Greystones line here: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057976745

MOD:

Threads:

DART Bray-Greystones: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057976745
M11/N11: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057631449
Luas: this thread

jvan wrote: »

As much as I welcome them looking into this, I'd much prefer if they put their energy into solutions for improving the current single track mainline south of Bray.

Would be different design teams I believe. TII do Luas and Metro, Irish Rail do rail.

Anyway, I'm not sure there is honestly much that can be done about Brunel's Folly.

Also I don't see Luas to Bray now happening until the mess with Metro South is sorted, which I wouldn't be so certain about. I suspect Luas extension to Fingals and Poolbeg will get the attention now ahead of Bray.

prunudo

As much as I welcome them looking into this, I'd much prefer if they put their energy into solutions for improving the current single track mainline south of Bray.

marno21

AngryLips wrote: »

So why are staff being deployed to this project and not line F?

The above timeline is for construction/implementation rather than design. It's more the best use of funds at various points, design isn't a major cost.

(For reference also, that was published in 2016 and may have been subject to change since. It certainly has in relation to DART Underground anyway).

AngryLips

marno21 wrote: »

The NTA are in agreement.

So why are staff being deployed to this project and not line F?

marno21

AngryLips wrote: »

Frankly I think priorities would be better served if Luas line F or Finglas extension put ahead of this project

The NTA are in agreement.

AngryLips

Frankly I think priorities would be better served if Luas line F or Finglas extension put ahead of this project

marno21

recedite wrote: »

N11 proposed upgrades in the vicinity; website is here.

N11 thread here also, best to discuss there.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057631449

recedite

N11 proposed upgrades in the vicinity; website is here.

marno21

Looks like the preferred Luas alignment in that document (thanks for linking).

Dats me

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Bray_Transport_Study_2019.pdf

Here's the Bray Transport Study as published on the NTA's website