Ulster Team Talk Thread IV... Go On My Henderson...

Dog Botherer

i feel the moral character of the club being discussed in the thread may possibly be relevant but crack on

bilston

Who were the Ulster standouts yesterday.

Lowry, Alan O'Connor, Burns and Cooney for me. O'Toole impressed from the bench.

What about the ref? Several big calls...I thought he got most right...still not convinced Herring should have been ignored for the 2md Gloucester PT though.

launish116

bilston wrote: »

Who were the Ulster standouts yesterday.

Lowry, Alan O'Connor, Burns and Cooney for me. O'Toole impressed from the bench.

What about the ref? Several big calls...I thought he got most right...still not convinced Herring should have been ignored for the 2md Gloucester PT though.

Lowry is just a joy to watch, if only he was a few inches taller and heavier. Does anyone remember halfpenny when he arrived? Was he similar and bulked?

Thoughts on Dave O’Connor, was always going to be a huge ask to fill that void? Do we think he’ll improve and be as useful as Al?

Think yesterday highlighted the elephant in the room again. Loosehead & Backrow. Real ticking time bomb with ageing Murphy, Reidy (looking like impact sub) and potential departure of Coetzee.

Utah_Saint

launish116 wrote: »

Lowry is just a joy to watch, if only he was a few inches taller and heavier. Does anyone remember halfpenny when he arrived? Was he similar and bulked?

Thoughts on Dave O’Connor, was always going to be a huge ask to fill that void? Do we think he’ll improve and be as useful as Al?

Think yesterday highlighted the elephant in the room again. Loosehead & Backrow. Real ticking time bomb with ageing Murphy, Reidy (looking like impact sub) and potential departure of Coetzee.

I think halfpenny is about 3inches taller surprisingly. I think Kolbe could be someone Lowry tries to emulate (even just a bit). They are the same height. Lowry would still need to put on about 10KG. Focus on his lower body, leg strength.

On the back Row it comes back to that problem we've had since Ferris departed. We have produced the Square root of FA since then and had to import every back row (except Rea).

bilston

The fact that Chris Henry is the last international back row that we produced is a pretty big indictment...he's been retired for 2 years FFS.

Admittedly we lost Ferris well before his time and Davy Pollock would almost certainly have played test rugby had he not had to pack it in early, in fact he might still be playing now...but it's not a blight on our pathway system. Leinster seem to produce one or two test back rows every blinking year!

launish116

bilston wrote: »

The fact that Chris Henry is the last international back row that we produced is a pretty big indictment...he's been retired for 2 years FFS.

Admittedly we lost Ferris well before his time and Davy Pollock would almost certainly have played test rugby had he not had to pack it in early, in fact he might still be playing now...but it's not a blight on our pathway system. Leinster seem to produce one or two test back rows every blinking year!

Not even international level, Pro 14 level be a start!

Real emphasis needed on fast tracking McCann, Rea, Allison, Reid the rest of season. If some of them ain’t gonna cut it think we need to be ruthless and start focusing on the next horse.

I was slightly ridiculed before for saying Munster have over took us. Looking at that Clermont game, it’s starting to look more that way! They had an academy LH play 77 minutes! Before we say it look at xyz...backs aren’t winning us games.

Utah_Saint

launish116 wrote: »

Not even international level, Pro 14 level be a start!

Real emphasis needed on fast tracking McCann, Rea, Allison, Reid the rest of season. If some of them ain’t gonna cut it think we need to be ruthless and start focusing on the next horse.

I was slightly ridiculed before for saying Munster have over took us. Looking at that Clermont game, it’s starting to look more that way! They had an academy LH play 77 minutes! Before we say it look at xyz...backs aren’t winning us games.

Munster have absolutely overtaken us. I still think we produce better backs but the Munster forwards are head and shoulders above ours.

Does anyone have any idea why this is? We can produce backs but no forwards?! Is it the final stage coaching in the Academy, preparing to join seniors? This is the exact same problem we had 5 years ago when there was a big deal made about us really focusing on improving the Academy.

To be honest i think the Academy need a whole new coaching ticket. The results have not be good enough for our main problem area - Forwards!

launish116

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Munster have absolutely overtaken us. I still think we produce better backs but the Munster forwards are head and shoulders above ours.

Does anyone have any idea why this is? We can produce backs but no forwards?! Is it the final stage coaching in the Academy, preparing to join seniors? This is the exact same problem we had 5 years ago when there was a big deal made about us really focusing on improving the Academy.

To be honest i think the Academy need a whole new coaching ticket. The results have not be good enough for our main problem area - Forwards!

Always been the million dollar question, poor player identification?

Academy has been winning a lot of games over last year and a bit, this is probably the first season those players are really at the stage to step up. My worry is a new academy ticket might happen with a sideways move due to Peel leaving.

A team highlights https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtR9VKNW8mo

Utah_Saint

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Munster have absolutely overtaken us. I still think we produce better backs but the Munster forwards are head and shoulders above ours.

Does anyone have any idea why this is? We can produce backs but no forwards?! Is it the final stage coaching in the Academy, preparing to join seniors? This is the exact same problem we had 5 years ago when there was a big deal made about us really focusing on improving the Academy.

To be honest i think the Academy need a whole new coaching ticket. The results have not be good enough for our main problem area - Forwards!

Current forwards in the Academy. The bottom 4 players are not on the ulster academy website but they are making appearances for the A's


AZUR ALLISON 19/04/1999 Back Row
REUBEN CROTHERS 28/01/2002 Back Row
DAVID MCCANN 13/06/2000 Back Row
CALLUM REID 06/01/1999 Prop
TOM STEWART 11/01/2001 Hooker
JAMES MCCORMICK 08/01/2002 Hooker
CORMAC IZUCHUKWU 28/01/2000 Second Row

Conor McMenamin ??? Second Row
Oscar Egan ??? Prop
Harry Sheridan ??? Second Row
George Saunderson ??? Prop

irishbucsfan

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Munster have absolutely overtaken us. I still think we produce better backs but the Munster forwards are head and shoulders above ours.

Does anyone have any idea why this is? We can produce backs but no forwards?! Is it the final stage coaching in the Academy, preparing to join seniors? This is the exact same problem we had 5 years ago when there was a big deal made about us really focusing on improving the Academy.

To be honest i think the Academy need a whole new coaching ticket. The results have not be good enough for our main problem area - Forwards!

Leinster had major major issues producing second rows for years. I even remember they had an open trial called Route 66 or something where they just let anyone 6’6 or above come in, which is fairly desperate. That’s why for years weve always had crucial NIQs in that position

Eventually that has obviously turned around, but I’m not sure much was really changed, I think the raw materials just weren’t there but the pathway was, and as soon as the right players came into it the results followed soon after. Maybe they really focused on developing those guys as much as they could at schools level.

Ulster obviously have a much smaller pool to choose from so it may not be that they’re doing anything hugely wrong. There’s a lot of luck involved in it.

bilston

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Current forwards in the Academy. The bottom 4 players are not on the ulster academy website but they are making appearances for the A's


AZUR ALLISON 19/04/1999 Back Row
REUBEN CROTHERS 28/01/2002 Back Row
DAVID MCCANN 13/06/2000 Back Row
CALLUM REID 06/01/1999 Prop
TOM STEWART 11/01/2001 Hooker
JAMES MCCORMICK 08/01/2002 Hooker
CORMAC IZUCHUKWU 28/01/2000 Second Row

Conor McMenamin ??? Second Row
Oscar Egan ??? Prop
Harry Sheridan ??? Second Row
George Saunderson ??? Prop

McCann and Stewart could be top level, not sure about Crothers yet as he is only a few months out of school and won't have played much rugby, but he is supposedly highly rated. The rest are looking more like solid players.

It's a start, but we need more than that.

Utah_Saint

bilston wrote: »

McCann and Stewart could be top level, not sure about Crothers yet as he is only a few months out of school and won't have played much rugby, but he is supposedly highly rated. The rest are looking more like solid players.

It's a start, but we need more than that.

If we don't get a quality back row from Alison or McCann we are in serious trouble. It will be another 2 years or so after when Crothers is ready to break through and we will have to go back begging to sign an NIQ or Leinster cast off.

launish116

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Current forwards in the Academy. The bottom 4 players are not on the ulster academy website but they are making appearances for the A's


AZUR ALLISON 19/04/1999 Back Row
REUBEN CROTHERS 28/01/2002 Back Row
DAVID MCCANN 13/06/2000 Back Row
CALLUM REID 06/01/1999 Prop
TOM STEWART 11/01/2001 Hooker
JAMES MCCORMICK 08/01/2002 Hooker
CORMAC IZUCHUKWU 28/01/2000 Second Row

Conor McMenamin ??? Second Row
Oscar Egan ??? Prop
Harry Sheridan ??? Second Row
George Saunderson ??? Prop

Egan & Saunderson sub academy? Would think they’d make full academy now especially with lack of rugby this season. Plenty of talent in that list.

We all know McCann is looking like a pro in the making. Real question is what is needed to get Allison & Reid to the next level? Even if it’s Pro 14 standard, or above Warwick/McCall/Timoney.

Utah_Saint

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Leinster had major major issues producing second rows for years. I even remember they had an open trial called Route 66 or something where they just let anyone 6’6 or above come in, which is fairly desperate. That’s why for years weve always had crucial NIQs in that position

Eventually that has obviously turned around, but I’m not sure much was really changed, I think the raw materials just weren’t there but the pathway was, and as soon as the right players came into it the results followed soon after. Maybe they really focused on developing those guys as much as they could at schools level.

Ulster obviously have a much smaller pool to choose from so it may not be that they’re doing anything hugely wrong. There’s a lot of luck involved in it.

We need to put Coetzee out to stud. set him up with some big dolls around Ballymena. Only 20 years or so to wait for results!!!

Yes - we have a small playing pool considering the overall population of the Province. Large section of the community have never played rugby at school or live near a club.

bilston

launish116 wrote: »

Egan & Saunderson sub academy? Would think they’d make full academy now especially with lack of rugby this season. Plenty of talent in that list.

We all know McCann is looking like a pro in the making. Real question is what is needed to get Allison & Reid to the next level? Even if it’s Pro 14 standard, or above Warwick/McCall/Timoney.

Bayern was suggesting that one of Egan or Saunderson could be starting for the Ireland 20s...can't remember which one.

On a related note Izuchukwu scored a good try for the As on Saturday. Also Sexton scored two crackers as well. Highlights are on YouTube.

launish116

bilston wrote: »

Bayern was suggesting that one of Egan or Saunderson could be starting for the Ireland 20s...can't remember which one.

On a related note Izuchukwu scored a good try for the As on Saturday. Also Sexton scored two crackers as well. Highlights are on YouTube.

If both those props made it to Pro 14 standard be another big step in building squad back bone.

Was reading about Izzy, Dan was talking him up and his want/ desire to excel. He’s obviously green to a lot of 15s play, seems Dan see’s him as a blank canvas wanting to learn and absorb everything. With some good coaching and his attitude, could be a punt that turns out very good! Have a lot of time for projects like this.

The Lost Sheep

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Munster have absolutely overtaken us. I still think we produce better backs but the Munster forwards are head and shoulders above ours.

Does anyone have any idea why this is? We can produce backs but no forwards?! Is it the final stage coaching in the Academy, preparing to join seniors? This is the exact same problem we had 5 years ago when there was a big deal made about us really focusing on improving the Academy.

To be honest i think the Academy need a whole new coaching ticket. The results have not be good enough for our main problem area - Forwards!

Coaching, standard of play in the club game for forwards. You see so many Ulster AIL packs and theyre big guys but not much good a lot of the time. Also not having as many division 1 sides may be a factor. Division 2 can teach a lot to forwards especially 2A but it could be an issue

Utah_Saint wrote: »

We need to put Coetzee out to stud. set him up with some big dolls around Ballymena. Only 20 years or so to wait for results!!!

Yes - we have a small playing pool considering the overall population of the Province. Large section of the community have never played rugby at school or live near a club.

Small playing pool which means changes could happen in time if more work is doing to get more clubs playing and regional teams for these club players to get higher standard of games.

Locke_Lamora

I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t a little jealous of the forwards Munster and Leinster are producing right now. Josh Wycherley, gavin Coombes, Ahern, and Hodnett all look like future internationals to me. Couple of other guys like jack O’Sullivan look like very good pros as well. Leinster are Leinster. We have a couple of decent lads coming through but the depth and top tier quality aren’t there yet.

Are backs can mix with the best of them, but I’d agree with Lost Sheep that our coaching is probably one of the main factors.

Cormac’s try looked like exactly what we need.

launish116

Locke_Lamora wrote: »

I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t a little jealous of the forwards Munster and Leinster are producing right now. Josh Wycherley, gavin Coombes, Ahern, and Hodnett all look like future internationals to me. Couple of other guys like jack O’Sullivan look like very good pros as well. Leinster are Leinster. We have a couple of decent lads coming through but the depth and top tier quality aren’t there yet.

Are backs can mix with the best of them, but I’d agree with Lost Sheep that our coaching is probably one of the main factors.

Cormac’s try looked like exactly what we need.

Same any of those Munster boys would make a significant difference to Ulster right now.

Real good crop of academy players have the made the step up across all the provinces this season.

Been very impressed with Connacht young guns. Including their snatch of Aungier.

Alex Soroka at Leinster looks like he could be the next monster backrow for them. He looks huge.

bilston

I think the Ulster Branch would be better saying three clubs in Ulster get Academy and Sub Academy players...and that's it...Ballynahinch and Queens would be two and then the Branch would just have to decide who the third is. Do what you can get to two or three teams in 1A even if that is st the detriment of the other Ulster clubs. It would be better for Ulster rugby as a whole in the long run.

None of the above would help my club by the way...although we are miles off 1A anyway...but looking at the bigger picture giving our 18-21 year olds a better standard of rugby would be a good thing.

Hands Like Flippers

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Current forwards in the Academy. The bottom 4 players are not on the ulster academy website but they are making appearances for the A's


AZUR ALLISON 19/04/1999 Back Row
REUBEN CROTHERS 28/01/2002 Back Row
DAVID MCCANN 13/06/2000 Back Row
CALLUM REID 06/01/1999 Prop
TOM STEWART 11/01/2001 Hooker
JAMES MCCORMICK 08/01/2002 Hooker
CORMAC IZUCHUKWU 28/01/2000 Second Row

Conor McMenamin ??? Second Row
Oscar Egan ??? Prop
Harry Sheridan ??? Second Row
George Saunderson ??? Prop

EGAN 2001
SAUNDERSON 2001

bilston

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

EGAN 2001
SAUNDERSON 2001

Are they decent prospects?

Dubinusa

I reckon Tom Stewart looks like a top quality prospect. Insanely athletic and explosive. He was very good last year with the 20's.
McCann also looks the business. I think he will be at least a pro14 level player. I would expect he will be better though.
Allison may also be a good pro. I think Ulster are improving with their underage forwards.
Reid has a shot too. Which would be great. Hopefully Ulster back these lads and get them so meaningful match time.
As far as Munster goes, they've hit the jackpot. Hodnett to me looks like a great prospect. I reckon he will be a multicapped international. O'Sullivan looks good too.
The difference to me is Munster have found locks. Kelly, Ahern and O'Connor.
Ahearn is a standout. Exceptional talent.

Overall Ulster are not doing too bad. Could be better, no doubt, but a lot better than the past.

Utah_Saint

Dubinusa wrote: »

I reckon Tom Stewart looks like a top quality prospect. Insanely athletic and explosive. He was very good last year with the 20's.
McCann also looks the business. I think he will be at least a pro14 level player. I would expect he will be better though.
Allison may also be a good pro. I think Ulster are improving with their underage forwards.
Reid has a shot too. Which would be great. Hopefully Ulster back these lads and get them so meaningful match time.
As far as Munster goes, they've hit the jackpot. Hodnett to me looks like a great prospect. I reckon he will be a multicapped international. O'Sullivan looks good too.
The difference to me is Munster have found locks. Kelly, Ahern and O'Connor.
Ahearn is a standout. Exceptional talent.

Overall Ulster are not doing too bad. Could be better, no doubt, but a lot better than the past.

I really hope they do get game time. We are never shy of dropping in young backs. We need to do the same with Forwards. Especially in the Rows. I'd like to think with nothing to lose in the Champions cup we start testing out these new players.

bilston

Dubinusa wrote: »

McCann also looks the business. I think he will be at least a pro14 level player.

He should be a lot more than that!

bilston

It wasn't a good look losing away to a fairly middle of the road Premiership team on the same weekend that Munster won in Clermont...but let's not overreact either. We had 3 players sin binned and we were missing arguably 7 starters...McGrath, Henderson, Carter, Coetzee, Marshall, Balacoune and Addison...and we still should have won.

Digifriendly

Coetzee was a big loss IMHO as well as not having Henderson. Add McGrath and Carter to the pack and methinks it would have been a different story altogether. Nevertheless we should not have lost to a team that was hammered at home by Harlequins who in turn conceded nearly 50 points at home to Racing. So we are some way off the top teams despite pushing Toulouse at home.

launish116

bilston wrote: »

It wasn't a good look losing away to a fairly middle of the road Premiership team on the same weekend that Munster won in Clermont...but let's not overreact either. We had 3 players sin binned and we were missing arguably 7 starters...McGrath, Henderson, Carter, Coetzee, Marshall, Balacoune and Addison...and we still should have won.

Honestly think if we had one of our first choice second rows available we’d of won. Not a slight on the O’Connors, think Rea would of started also then.

As bad as the defeat was, a couple of years ago we would of imploded after Gloucester got that lead.

Really looking forward to inter-pros now and hoping to see some youth given a chance. Hope McIlroy isn’t holding himself responsible for that loss.

Hands Like Flippers

bilston wrote: »

Are they decent prospects?

They are certainly both big enough. Saunderson was quite dynamic when he was playing medallion etc but much less so now.

Neither got on v Connacht and haven't seen them play for ages so wouldn't like to comment too much.

launish116

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

Neither got on v Connacht and haven't seen them play for ages so wouldn't like to comment too much.

When you did see them last, make an impression?