Green Fees - Top Courses in Ireland

FixdePitchmark

ShivasIrons wrote: »

I think this needs to be repeated, every club in the country which is affiliated to the GUI or ILGU makes their course available to both of them.


Portmarnock, RCD, Royal Portrush have events on their courses that are open to members of the ILGU and GUI.


Can someone explain how this is not acceptable?

OPENS

they play at other course OPENS

fullstop

slave1 wrote: »

And I will add that different courses in the country not only have a GUI rate but a local rate also e.g. GUI rate in Ballyliffin is €70 but less again if you are a member of any County Donegal Golf Club

All the clubs in Donegal have reciprocal agreements for half price green fees, or at least used to.

Blud

ShivasIrons wrote: »

I think this needs to be repeated, every club in the country which is affiliated to the GUI or ILGU makes their course available to both of them.


Portmarnock, RCD, Royal Portrush have events on their courses that are open to members of the ILGU and GUI.


Can someone explain how this is not acceptable?

You are either missing the point, or else you see the point and then deliberately shift the focus.

The three courses you mention, and anyone else for that matter, are more than welcome to have their own policies to not hold opens. That should equally mean that members of those clubs should not be allowed to play in opens elsewhere.

It is simple really.

benny79

Seve OB wrote: »

its the same all around the world benny

I know, thats my point so why should we as Irish men and GUI members be expected to pay top whack on home courses! I don't expect to pay for free but as a gui member I do expect some discount as Fix explained

Derek Zoolander

ShivasIrons wrote: »

All clubs affiliated to the Golfing Union make their clubs available to the Union for events, whether it be cups and shields or championships. Lahinch, RCD, Royal Portrush etc make their course available for play.


The Old Head is not affiliated to the Golfing Union.



All courses in Ireland are available to outside play. Anybody can arrange a tee time and play. Every club is free to set their own fee, if you'd like to play another course pay the fee they're asking. If you think the fee is too high, don't pay and don't play.


Lahinch, Ballybunion, Portmarnock, RCD etc all feature in the top 100 courses of the world, and rightly charge a fee for playing the best courses in the world. They all also offer reduced rates over the green fee rate, it's called membership and being a member's guest.


Their price is pitched at golfers who value the experience of their course. To say it's only for overseas visitors is not true, there is plenty of Irish golfers who pay the full rate too. Offering reductions does a number of undesirable things, one if a golfer pays full rate and finds out golfers on the same day paid a reduced rate, they will be annoyed and it sours their experience. It's bad business to annoy your best customers and two the golfers who don't pay full rate don't value the course.


Imagine going into a restaurant saying I want fillet steak but I'm only going to pay for sausages? The restaurant wouldn't be too impressed. Then the customer says but I live down the road, I'm a local. Do you think the restaurant will give them steak for sausage prices?


The members of Portmarnock, RCD, Portrush etc have made far greater contributions to the GUI throughout its history and to Irish golf. Don't insult them by saying there is a lopsidedness to green fee prices and access to courses

This *100....

the expectation that every should be allowed pay a cheap rate because someone down the road is cousins with a members uncle in Portmarnock is typically of some of our values...

We have access to some of the best courses in the world at a very reasonable rate - paying 20 quid a year or whatever to be a member of the GUI doesn't give you any divine right to access to these courses...

Derek Zoolander

Blud wrote: »

You are either missing the point, or else you see the point and then deliberately shift the focus.

The three courses you mention, and anyone else for that matter, are more than welcome to have their own policies to not hold opens. That should equally mean that members of those clubs should not be allowed to play in opens elsewhere.

It is simple really.

There is absolutely no stipulation from the GUI that a course should hold opens...merely that the courses support Irish golf with access to cup/shields/ interpros etc...

Opens are something that some courses implement for their own benefit to generate incremental revenue...

Blud

Derek Zoolander wrote: »

There is absolutely no stipulation from the GUI that a course should hold opens...merely that the courses support Irish golf with access to cup/shields/ interpros etc...

Opens are something that some courses implement for their own benefit to generate incremental revenue...

I know there is no stipulation from the GUI. That much is obvious.

There is also no stipulation that a course has to make it's open events open to all GUI members. So Course A when holding an open event could, and perhaps should, only make it open to members of Course B if Course B hold similar events that are open to members of Course A.

Nobody is trying to force anyone to open their course to anyone else, but a spirit of repricocity would surely be welcome by all, wouldn't you agree?

Derek Zoolander

Blud wrote: »

I know there is no stipulation from the GUI. That much is obvious.

There is also no stipulation that a course has to make it's open events open to all GUI members. So Course A when holding an open event could, and perhaps should, only make it open to members of Course B if Course B hold similar events that are open to members of Course A.

Nobody is trying to force anyone to open their course to anyone else, but a spirit of repricocity would surely be welcome by all, wouldn't you agree?

I would agree with that - its the clubs responsibility through its membership to determine if it wants to hold opens or not.

I wouldn't have any issue with a club that holds opens stating members of clubs that don't are not welcome.

I think you'll find the clubs themselves might have an issue because in theory opens generate revenue (how much is from members of closed clubs could easily be checked on a club by club basis) and the only people that are moaning with the current setup are people that want to play at expensive courses for heavily discounted rates...

Dublin Spur

PokeHerKing wrote: »

I'd agree if your club don't reciprocate you shouldn't be allowed participate.

its as simple as that

it sickens me that members of the Island and/or Portmarnock (for example) regularly play in open events at my club but their clubs' never run opens.

Ban their members from other clubs' opens and I am convinced they would change their position.

Derek Zoolander

Dublin Spur wrote: »

its as simple as that

it sickens me that members of the Island and/or Portmarnock (for example) regularly play in open events at my club but their clubs' never run opens.

Ban their members from other clubs' opens and I am convinced they would change their position.

no chance....

slave1

also, we're not talking free reign of these elite courses, an open or concessionary rate for a mid week morning only even would be welcome even if only once a month, surely two hours tee time a month is not too much to ask for?
Fair dues to Tralee and Ballybunion as they do decent green fees a few times a year, this weekend they both have 4ball opens if I remember correctly

Derek Zoolander

slave1 wrote: »

also, we're not talking free reign of these elite courses, an open or concessionary rate for a mid week morning only even would be welcome even if only once a month, surely two hours tee time a month is not too much to ask for?
Fair dues to Tralee and Ballybunion as they do decent green fees a few times a year, this weekend they both have 4ball opens if I remember correctly

to what end...

Portmarnock is used a lot for Special Olympics Ireland / Ireland international youth and senior teams for practice rounds / sessions etc - they make the course available to benefit the game

what is the benefit to the members of Portmarnock to have a monthly open there?

slave1

Derek Zoolander wrote: »

to what end...

Portmarnock is used a lot for Special Olympics Ireland / Ireland international youth and senior teams for practice rounds / sessions etc - they make the course available to benefit the game

what is the benefit to the members of Portmarnock to have a monthly open there?

I think that summaries the point a few of us are trying to make

benny79

Im at a lose to some of the comments...

Its about supporting IRISH GOLF.... As a whole.

You cant play our course because are heads up are asre and we are better than you but we will play your's....


Golf Snobbery.

Goodluck2me

benny79 wrote: »

Im at a lose to some of the comments...

Its about supporting IRISH GOLF.... As a whole.

You cant play our course because are heads up are asre and we are better than you but we will play your's....


Golf Snobbery.

Ah to a point, but if you spend €20k joining a club and have it in pristine condition, with high subs etc, you’d probably not want hundreds of golfers coming from outside to damage it. It’s not a quid pro quo to say to Portmarnock members, well you can play the open in Sillogue once a week we should play yours too. I guess the key point is probably one of balance, maybe those top courses just do it 1-3 times a year, it would be a gesture if nothing else.

rooney30

benny79 wrote: »

Im at a lose to some of the comments...

Its about supporting IRISH GOLF.... As a whole.

You cant play our course because are heads up are asre and we are better than you but we will play your's....


Golf Snobbery.

It’s not snobbery . It’s just realism really. I’m not sure what kind of Utopian world you exist in

benny79

Goodluck2me wrote: »

Ah to a point, but if you spend €20k joining a club and have it in pristine condition, with high subs etc, you’d probably not want hundreds of golfers coming from outside to damage it. It’s not a quid pro quo to say to Portmarnock members, well you can play the open in Sillogue once a week we should play yours too. I guess the key point is probably one of balance, maybe those top courses just do it 1-3 times a year, it would be a gesture if nothing else.

Most the top courses only do it once a year which is fine, the point is that they do it..

ChippingSodbury

Lads, last day for this week's competition for a freebie 4 Ball in Rosses Point: https://twitter.com/CountySligoGC/status/1123530540630646785

Seve OB

I would disagree with Slaves notion that courses should have Opens once a month etc. That is not necessarily a good approach, It all depends on the club really. Poorer clubs may have to do it to survive, but if they have to do it, then the bigger question is maybe we have to many course options?

I think the history of regular opens is relatively new. Back when I was a kid starting golf (late 80's- early 90's) I do remember going around Ireland with my old man on our summer holidays and he could play some of the best courses as he was a member of a GUI club and there was a certain prestige to it. As far as I recall he would ring them up and they would get him out with a member.

There was basically 4 ways to play golf back then.

1. You were a member of a club and played there and it also afforded you the opportunity to play other courses for interclub or as I explained my dad did above.
2. You got an invite from a member of a club to play their course
3. you played a public golf course
4. you played in a some kind of a society, but I think societies back then would be booking courses for whole days as opposed to a few lines, big corporate days etc.

No such thing as regular Opens as such back then. (I stand to be corrected of course as I'm clearly to young to remember )

However what was abundant and pretty much every club had it was "Open Week". Once week a year it gave an opportunity for clubs to showcase their course, club and facilities. Maybe even generate a few new members. Course was dressed up to perfection, facilities got a make over, social events for prize givings were hosted, a show was put on. Of course joining a club back then wasn't just a case of whipping out the cheque book and paying a fee. You have to be introduced by existing members, get nominated, seconded etc.

Then we had the boom, every farmer turning their land into another new course to the point where we had to many, way to many. But golf was now accessible to the masses, just pay your joining fee and your are welcome. But not enough members, crash boom wallop, nobody on the courses...… Then they were forced to run opens all the time. It was the only way some courses could survive and indeed some didn't. Some still struggle.

In my opinion, courses who have opens every week and every month are not they way we should be running golf in this country. It opens up for the so called Slievenamon brigade with their cheap country handicap playing courses that really they should be a member of as they pay them so often and never visit their own club. We should be building clubs, proper clubs, comradery, not just courses for car park golfers. IMO fewer clubs/courses will tighten a bond between players and build better more financially stable clubs.

Nowadays Open week is not such a big thing anymore. Most of them are dull boring affairs and just another normal golfing day, especially if the club has opens all the time. Open week just looses it's edge. Indeed, not all clubs have open week now and I would hazard a guess that an awful lot don't. Some old school clubs have rebranded in recent years and it has become a "festival of golf". I'm not really sure what the difference it, but I think it is more aimed at members bringing in guests as opposed to opening the doors to everyone.

Don't get me wrong, I think it is important for clubs to have Opens in order to integrate with the wider Irish golfing community. But especially for the elite clubs, these should not be weekly, nor monthly, but once or twice a year is fine in my book (as I expect is similar feeling for other who want to see opens) I've played in a few and in my opinion it really adds to the experience of playing the course when you know this is a rare opportunity to play an elite track as you tee it up in the annual scratch cup down in the dunesof Ballybunion.

slave1

I kinda got drawn into debating the side of the fence that are not happy with the "elite" courses not showing GUI "spirit" with Opens/GUI rate.

I'm actually not bothered at all whether the course I play is an Open or not, determining factor for me is the tee time, is it reasonable cost and most importantly what's the weather like.
Most courses if you phone them up and say you want to tee off real early like 7.30 will do you a deal, even if it's just a 2ball.
But there's also nothing like getting a deal, the Ballyliffins last year gave me GUI rate, still cost €140 to play both courses, I played NorthWest just down the road and phoned them and out of the blue they gave me a Saturday tee time for €20, got Doonbeg for €45 on an internet deal and then remainder of courses I played were just green fees with the odd Open thrown in.

thewobbler

It’s an odd thing this thread.

There are generally 3 reasons that must combine before a golf club can be described as elite.

One is history. Or in short, why Trump Turnberry will always have a prestige that Trump International cannot. This tradition tilts supply and demand in the course’s favour. So they can, as a result, price themselves in the prestige market.

The second one is culture. There must be at least one hundred golf courses in Ireland over one hundred years old. But half of those wouldn’t feature in anyone’s bucket list. What really separates these clubs is that the elite ones have a culture of excellence. They invest time, money and effort not just in what they do, but how they do things. They are the custodians of tradition. It’s attention to detail, and visitors will pay handsomely to be a part of it.

The last reason is fundamentally entwined with culture, and it is money. Maintaining and improving excellence requires extraordinary budgets. It takes - generous and well-connected membership to allow for this excellence as a minimum level.

——

When you bear all this in mind, I can’t help but ponder why on earth an “outsider” should feel some sort of moral right to avail of these facilities on the cheap. It makes no sense. None.

Kevinmarkham

To be blunt, there's a lot of horse crap in this thread. I've read the responses and here are five points:

1. Green fees are decided by the golf club. They can set them as high or as low as they choose. It's the economics of supply and demand. When you have a brilliant product that is sought after by thousands of people across the world then you are in a position to charge for it. So, do you want to drive a Ferrari? The answer is probably yes... but chances are you can only afford a VW or a Toyota. Do you want to play links courses or premium parklands that are in short supply? The answer is probably yes... but chances are you can't justify paying the green fees. That's the nature of economics.

There is also a flipside to this: if Ballybunion started charging green fees of €50, what would Mount Juliet charge? What about Gowran Park? What about Fermoy? How would smaller clubs survive if they could only charge €10 green fees because the best courses in the world were charging €50.

And, as has been pointed out, our courses charge green fees far lower than the US and below the premium courses of Scotland and England. And don't ignore the fact that every golf course (including Hog's Head) on this island can be played with a green fee. That is NOT the case in Scotland, England and the US.

You may not be willing to pay €200+ for a green fee (I certainly wouldn't be able to justify that money and I appreciate that I am exceptionally lucky to play the courses I do because of my work) but if you want to play the Ferrari of golf courses you have to pay for it.

And there are still 'Ferrari' courses out there that don't charge €200+ and ways and means (as have been discussed) to play the higher priced ones at reduced rates.

2. Locals have it too good. Um, and why shouldn't they? A lot of golf courses are community hubs where people socialise and hold events as well as playing golf. Why shouldn't they be incentivised to play golf as they are the people most likely to give those clubs repeat business over the years, both on and off the course? That again comes down to the club deciding what rates to charge.

3. It's not what you know it's who you know? Sorry, that's a bonkers complaint. You can't tell me you haven't taken advantage of this family/friends 'system' at some point in your life... be it getting tickets for an event, accessing a club, buying reduced price products/services. Why should golf be any different? Some people are lucky. Some people aren't. Tough.

4. GUI Affiliation. The majority of clubs are affiliated with the GUI, which means these clubs gain certain advantages by being part of a collective... and so too their members. I don't pretend to understand the application/affiliation process but if a club doesn't want to be a part of that, that's their choice. For one thing it means they don't have to acquiesce to GUI requirements. Why should members of these clubs be excluded from open competitions at GUI affiliated clubs? I don't get this argument. They are paying visitors after all - is their money any less welcome than a GUI member's?

"I wouldn't want to belong to a club that would have me as a member." Groucho Marx.

5. Opens. Club's hold open events so that visitors can experience a course at a discounted rate... and so clubs can generate income. Clubs don't HAVE to host such events but they choose to because it's good for business. There are plenty of clubs that have opens even though they probably don't need to... just as there are clubs that don't hold open events because it's not part of their strategy and they get enough income from membership fees and full green fee income.

I would like every Irish club (including Old Head, Hog's Head etc) to host opens so that golfers who can't afford the high prices have an opportunity to visit... but then I'd also like Donald Trump to admit he's a moron.

Beaulieu

Kevinmarkham wrote: »

I would like every Irish club (including Old Head, Hog's Head etc) to host opens so that golfers who can't afford the high prices have an opportunity to visit... but then I'd also like Donald Trump to admit he's a moron.

Ha Ha Kev...brilliant:D:D:D:D

ShivasIrons

Kevinmarkham wrote: »

5. Opens. Club's hold open events so that visitors can experience a course at a discounted rate... and so clubs can generate income. Clubs don't HAVE to host such events but they choose to because it's good for business. There are plenty of clubs that have opens even though they probably don't need to... just as there are clubs that don't hold open events because it's not part of their strategy and they get enough income from membership fees and full green fee income.

I would like every Irish club (including Old Head, Hog's Head etc) to host opens so that golfers who can't afford the high prices have an opportunity to visit... but then I'd also like Donald Trump to admit he's a moron.

But hosting regular open events is not good for business, for example there's a club in North County Dublin, it is 1300 euro for membership, and they have an open competition every Thursday for 15 euro, competition fee for members is 5, so anyone can play the course essentially for 10 euro. Do the mathematics, it's financial madness. They are selling rounds for below the cost of providing the round.


What happens when you sell something for less then you paid for it?

mike12

Loads of ways to play most of our top courses at a cheap rate.
The 3 day team events are a great way to play some super courses, Portrush, Ballyliffin and Portstewart for less than 200 quid for the 3 is super value.
I would love if every course held a scratch cup, it's one day a year so no big deal really.

Kevinmarkham

ShivasIrons wrote: »

But hosting regular open events is not good for business, for example there's a club in North County Dublin, it is 1300 euro for membership, and they have an open competition every Thursday for 15 euro, competition fee for members is 5, so anyone can play the course essentially for 10 euro. Do the mathematics, it's financial madness. They are selling rounds for below the cost of providing the round.


What happens when you sell something for less then you paid for it?

I don't disagree. There are clubs that host two open events a week and that's not smart practice for the very reasons you state.

Seve OB has already mentioned Open Weeks. That is very much what I am in favour of but the weekly open event is now almost standard and several clubs have told me in recent years that the open week has been discontinued for that very reason.

galwayllm

I played Connemara Golf Links over the bank holiday, I must say what a lovely course, and the scenery that some holes offer is second to none!

If you're ever out in west Co. Galway it's well worth a round...

jp101

ShivasIrons wrote: »

But hosting regular open events is not good for business, for example there's a club in North County Dublin, it is 1300 euro for membership, and they have an open competition every Thursday for 15 euro, competition fee for members is 5, so anyone can play the course essentially for 10 euro. Do the mathematics, it's financial madness. They are selling rounds for below the cost of providing the round.


What happens when you sell something for less then you paid for it?

Out of curiosity what do you think the actual maths is, what is the cost of providing a round?

ShivasIrons

jp101 wrote: »

Out of curiosity what do you think the actual maths is, what is the cost of providing a round?

There's a couple of ways to look at it, in that club the sub is 1300 and generally an average member plays 40 times a year so on average they are paying 32.50 a round. A visitor should be paying more then a member.


Another way to look at it is to divide the cost of running a club by the number of rounds, so for example a club costs 750,000 to run and there's 600 rounds a week or 30,000 a year then it's 25 a round to run. There's not much ancillary income to be made so the 25 a round comes from subscriptions or green fees. Charging an infrequent customer less than a frequent customer is customer service suicide.

moycullen14

jp101 wrote: »

Out of curiosity what do you think the actual maths is, what is the cost of providing a round?

Get 2 accountants and you will have 3 methods to 'calculate' the cost of a round.

I suspect most clubs - especially those that are struggling financially - calculate the marginal cost of a round at pretty much zero. Most costs are fixed and the others are not affected overmuch by an extra few rounds. If they were then we would all be paying per round and there would be no annual membership.

Anyway the cost is irrelevant - it's all about supply and demand.