Who Watches the Watchmen (Our Chit Chat Thread)

Wibbs

In my humble anyway, Grand Seiko are incredibly beautifully made watches and equal to or blow the doors off Swiss watches in the price range and sometimes above. In horological tech they're well in the game too and when the Swiss chronometer trials were still a thing back in the day it was Seiko who produced the most accurate mechanical watch ever entered in the competitions and it was a watch you could actually go out and buy. They've most certainly earned their place in watchmaking history and ahead of a few famous Swiss brands too. Of the Japanese brands it's Seiko and not Casio who are "god tier". Casio innovated once and yes it was a beauty, the G-Shock. That's it. Seiko are leagues ahead across the board. Citizen are well ahead of Casio too.

The problem I have with them are their overall designs. They tend to be bulky(though this White Birch looks less bulky) and a little too traditional. In the sense of viewing Swiss traditional through a slightly wonky Japanese lens. They have some local design nods, but they somehow don't quite fit. They're a Lexus. Far better by most metrics than most German mid luxury iron, but they're missing the overall package that makes a BMW a BMW, or an Audi an Audi.

Fitz II

Wibbs wrote: »

In my humble anyway, Grand Seiko are incredibly beautifully made watches dials and they polish the snot out of the parts and equal to or blow the doors off Swiss watches in the price range and sometimes above. In horological tech they're well in the game too and when the Swiss chronometer trials were still a thing back in the day it was Seiko who produced the most accurate mechanical watch ever entered in the competitions and it was a watch you could actually go out and buy. They've most certainly earned their place in watchmaking history and ahead of a few famous Swiss brands too. Of the Japanese brands it's Seiko and not Casio who are "god tier". Casio innovated once and yes it was a beauty, the G-Shock. That's it. Seiko are leagues ahead across the board. Citizen are well ahead of Casio too.

FUP

Wibbs

Bluefoam wrote: »

I believe from some of his comments on the channel, that he has a few Seiko's...

I'm sure he bases his content on what is more popular and gains most views... I would also speculate that his watch buying has changed based on the needs of his channel as opposed to being solely personal.

His collection does represent the mainstream, and I'd like to see him showcase more diverse marks. Didn't he mention that a turtle video was coming? He definitely said that it's seeing allot of wrist time and that it's his current favourite.

I would suspect it's precisely because he's mainstream and aspirationally mainstream he gets the hits. I'd further suspect the vast majority of his hits and subs don't have, well, Subs. It's like the Dutch dealer chap up in Belfast. His subreddit has very few members who own any Rolex(ref.no. WW$*&5^&o8888¢3T), it's mostly young lads with fashion watches and Casio. Now car channels can also be aspirational and show off high value cars most of their viewers will never sit in never mind drive, the difference tends to be that their viewers are generally much more informed about the cars themselves and cars in general. The typical watch channel viewer seems to be much less informed and not particularly interested in that aspect.

Wibbs

Fitz II wrote: »

FUP

Not really. Their level of case finishing is way above the Swiss mid tier brands. Even without a loupe this is pretty evident, though the high magnification loupe brigade do go overboard on this score. Still, if any Rolex or Omega had the same level of finish they'd be better finished watches than they are.

The problem I have are their designs. The Swiss nuke them from orbit on this score. This new one a good example. It's too "silver" overall. Bugger all contrast anywhere beyond polished and not polished, which IMHO isn't enough. It's also a set of finishes that won't wear the years well. Extra fine brushing never does and can look pretty grotty pretty quickly, unless the watch is a safe queen. Doubly so when mixing mirror polishing and brushing in very precise ways. Utter nightmare to refresh. The case design on the new one? Well if I were Omega I'd be looking to see if I'd patented my 1960's case designs.... Again Lexus, trying to look like a Merc. The hands are very Seiko, as is the dial setup, but it again jars for me with the staid Swiss traditional. Actually Seiko handsets in general are a bit out there for me.

I just wish Seiko would say feck it, stop being so traditional and go full Lexus LFA and be damned.

Cienciano

Design isn't a problem imho. It's subjective as long as the workmanship is there. If you like the look, go for it. Plenty of swiss watches have no contrast. Some people find the royal oak tacky, I like it. Particularly the silver dial. No contrast there either. It's all personal preference.
Rolex president is an example of no contrast I wouldn't be a fan of.

Time

Cienciano wrote: »

Design isn't a problem imho. It's subjective as long as the workmanship is there. If you like the look, go for it. Plenty of swiss watches have no contrast. Some people find the royal oak tacky, I like it. Particularly the silver dial. No contrast there either. It's all personal preference.
Rolex president is an example of no contrast I wouldn't be a fan of.

Add the silver dial yacht master to that list too, no real contrast at all.

Cienciano

Time wrote: »

Add the silver dial yacht master to that list too, no real contrast at all.

Sometimes it works. On the other end of the spectrum the all black casioak is pretty cool.

redlead

Time wrote: »

Add the silver dial yacht master to that list too, no real contrast at all.

I don't think that works though. The rhodium dial yachtmaster is a beautiful watch; probably the perfect sports watch imo actually. The silver dial version is just meh

Fitz II

Fitz II wrote: »

FUP

I was making you same point Wibbs. The dials and finish on the dial is supurb. However the design is very dated for such a technoligical marvel and the case proportions are weird

I mostly like to needle the fansboys. And while I appreciate taste is subjective, Grand Seikos never stand on their own, the conversation quickly turns to comparing them to Rolex.

I have some Rolex with flawless finishing too, and JLC finish to Grand Seiko levels as a routien. I have also seen some pretty badly finished Grand seiko online. I will tell you this, Omega finishing is excellent, never had one with a flaw. It reminds me of that old joke about a man congratulating himself for having never gone to jail....you not supposed to go to jail. Same with grand seiko....so the finish is good, its supposed to be, they are all supposed to have flawless finish in this Tier, that Rolex sometimes dont doesnt really make the Grand Seiko a better watch, it just highlights that really people are after Rolex and looking for excuses to buy the watch they can get.

redlead wrote: »

I don't think that works though. The rhodium dial yachtmaster is a beautiful watch; probably the perfect sports watch imo actually. The silver dial version is just meh

I dont think you necessarilt need colour contrast, Omega do this well on the Darkside of the Moon they set the levels of the dial and different finishes to get the light to contrast. AP do this a lot too. Rolex Dial can be a bit flat that doesnt help you need to catch them in the right light.

redlead

Fitz II wrote: »

I dont think you necessarilt need colour contrast, Omega do this well on the Darkside of the Moon they set the levels of the dial and different finishes to get the light to contrast. AP do this a lot too. Rolex Dial can be a bit flat that doesnt help you need to catch them in the right light.

I agree. I was actually going to use the dark side of the moon you had as an example of where it works really well but was too lazy to continue typing. It can work for sure but it's definitely a lot harder to get it to work. Often the difference might just be a contrasting hand or something.

Funnily enough, I'm not really a speedie fan but think the dark side of the moon is possibly the nicest one.

Wibbs

Fitz II wrote: »

I was making you same point Wibbs. The dials and finish on the dial is supurb. However the design is very dated for such a technoligical marvel and the case proportions are weird

Aye, though I'd say their overall design is less dated in of itself and far more a sideways knock off of Swiss designs. Which themselves are often dated. Rolex's design language has barely shifted in 40 years. That's their main selling point. "Icons", because they've been around so long with tiny tweaks here and there for the acolytes of minutiae. In GS's case QV that latest example with the 60's Omega case design.

I mostly like to needle the fansboys. And while I appreciate taste is subjective, Grand Seikos never stand on their own, the conversation quickly turns to comparing them to Rolex.

That's another problem with GS. Because they're not bold enough and unique enough and sneak in "Swiss" design cues, they'll always be compared to the brand de jour. Of late that's Rolex. 20 years ago it was IWC and Rolex and the latter were losing because of scarily bad quality control and crap bracelets. Rolex have upped their game since and IWC have really dropped off the radar of buyers in that bracket.

so the finish is good, its supposed to be, they are all supposed to have flawless finish in this Tier, that Rolex sometimes dont doesnt really make the Grand Seiko a better watch, it just highlights that really people are after Rolex and looking for excuses to buy the watch they can get.

Oh there's something to that alright.

I dont think you necessarilt need colour contrast, Omega do this well on the Darkside of the Moon they set the levels of the dial and different finishes to get the light to contrast.

Maybe we have to define contrast here, thought it depends entirely on the version involved(and with Omega it's hard to keep track...) So this version:



Is about as much contrast as one could have. Grey/White on black. Or the vintage black:



Again high contrast. Whereas this Black Black version:



Is in my humble a novelty for the sake of it and little else. I'd agree the Speedie Dark side is a really nice looking Speedie(in the legible versions) and would be my fave too. Two registers for the win.

Thirdfox

I did say no watch purchases for this year right... well there isn't a watch on the way but another one of my hobbies mentioned here before too - one of the last IBM made Model M terminal keyboard (in German layout too) coming soon - it's known within the keyboard enthusiast community (yes it's a big thing actually) as the IBM "battlecruiser" as it has 122 keys vs the "normal" ISO 103/104 keys - a really chunky keyboard for where it is definitely function over form (which has a beauty of its own too I think).

Looking forward to sharing it once it arrives from Germany - oh and for people used to 5-10 euro keyboards - this cost me 125 euro and I consider it a bargain (it generally goes for around 160+)... and it was made in 1998 so over 20 years old now - and I'm going to be using it as a daily keyboard - not hipster but actually because these keyboards are "tool keyboards" - no fancy LEDs or "cool gamer" features - just "cool" hard-wearing utility.

For anyone interested here is a review of it:

Cyclingtourist

Bluefoam wrote: »

I believe from some of his comments on the channel, that he has a few Seiko's...

.

Yes he's done a video on the Seiko Alpinist SARB 017 but most of his stuff is on Rolex or Omega. To be fair he does go 'off piste' occasionally with watches from the likes of Glycine or Panerai .

cnocbui

cnocbui wrote: »

I'm afaraid I gave up on watches that require battery changing, nearly 30 years ago. Which reminds me, I should dig out my last battery watch, an early 80's Pulsar LCD digital, get a battery for it and see if it still works.

Well I found the Pulsar in the loft. Think I'll need to buy or make a tool to open the screw case back. But in finding it I discovered something weird. The elegant and very flexible SS band on it has Seiko stamped on it. Then I remembered i didn't really like the original strap and swapped it for the strap off my first noteworthy watch:



Sadly that watch leaked and the moisture did for the LCD. Wish I still had the pieces.

I'm certain Pulsar copied the Seiko case to a T as the end of the strap is a custom shape that integrates into a recess in the case for a seamless look.



Speaking of copied, I rediscoverd another watch I had completely forgotten. Something naughty my late brother bought in Thailand (I think?).

IrishPlayer

Love that Seiko 0634-5009, those LCD watches are really cool, weren't cheap in their day, an advert from 1977 ,interesting comparison against the Speedmaster



Steve Jobs wore a Seiko M159-5058 Quartz LC Chronograph

Speaking of keyboards





Being awhile since I watched an episode of Knight Rider

Season 3 Episode 9 'Dead of Knight' Seiko 6138-0040 "Brown Bullhead" worn by the character Paul Renard played by Tony Young. Hard to make it out in the still shots, more clear when watching it, the bracelet design with the center link pattern is what caught my attention







Season 3 Episode 10 'Lost Knight' Casio C80 on a bund style strap worn by the character Julius Korso played by Karl Johnson

Lorddrakul

When I was a kid in the 80s, there was a promotion with Panda (?) chocolate spread. I think it was 5 or 6 labels from special jars to get a calculator watch.
I wasn't even a maths nerd, but I thought this was space age!
Coming from a family of six siblings, it didn't take long to accumulate enough. I think I had three of them
They disintegrated pretty quickly. I don't think I ever got to change a battery in one. They usually broke at the spring bar lug.
I developed a very tidy method of using a hot needle to create hole vertically though the lug to essentially stitch the strap onto it.
The internals never seemed to fail though.
Happy days.

Wibbs

IrishPlayer wrote: »

Love that Seiko 0634-5009, those LCD watches are really cool, weren't cheap in their day, an advert from 1977 ,interesting comparison against the Speedmaster

Shows how inflation went a bit mad in the 70's. The Speedie over doubled in price from 1970(not helped by the Swiss Franc currency rise). Also shows how spending power reduced. In late 70's UK adverts you start see deposits and monthly payments on higher price items. Colour TV's were a big one, but also luxury/jewellery items like watches. Something you just didn't see in 1970 or before. Then by the mid 80's credit cards were far more widespread so the paying off over time became more hidden in a way.

The general narrative around the "quartz crisis" is that cheap quartz from the Far East kicked the Swiss into touch, but as the ad shows it's far more complex than that. Cheap quartz killed of the countless cheap as chips Swiss brands alright, but specifically the massive trend for digitals. Analogue was very much seen as old hat. Why would anyone buy some budget no name Swiss mechanical when you could buy a budget made in Hong Kong no name quartz digital that was vastly more accurate with all sorts of useful functions and required no maintenance, save for a battery you could usually fit yourself(most back then had a coin turned little hatch on the back. Two minutes and done).

The higher end was less hit initially as the Swiss had heavily invested in quartz and had made some fantastic innovations throughout the 70's and the watches were selling well. Patek and Ap and others were selling high priced quartz on the back of the trend and as we can see from the ad there was mid tier pricing levels in quartz too. At this end of Seiko and Citizen they were not cheap watches by any stretch and if you pick one up today and look at the cases and bracelets they're very well made and very well finished.

What fecked the Swiss was they never invested in digital tech until it was too late. They just didn't see it coming and didn't have the know how of the Americans and Japanese. Some did try. Omega, Longines and Heuer fired out quite a few LCD models, but they were notably more expensive than the Japanese offerings and were always a generation behind in tech and function. Heuer even had one that was both LCD and LED, the Chronosplit. They go for decent money today if you can find one, but was a dead end gimmick at the time and suffered from serious reliability issues.

Though fair play to the Swiss in the heel of the hunt. They turned it around so completely that the chap who bought the "old fashioned" Speedie in 77 would now have a watch worth high four figures, the chap who bought the Seiko would now have a watch worth a few hundred quid tops.

Cyclingtourist

I'm supposed to be on the lookout for a 'luxury' watch and really like the Rolex Oyster Perpetual as well as the Omega Aqua Terra. The first is about €6K (grey market don't even think about trying in Weirs) and the second €4K. I can afford either or even both but really can't justify spending that kind of money on something that will probably need an expensive service in the next 5 years.

I own a 04 Ford Fiesta that does the job and costs me money even though I drive it once or twice a week on average and would happily give up car ownership but my wife won't allow me.

So here's the question; Is the Sinn 556 i RS, which I also like, at about €1.4K a 'luxury' watch?

Wibbs

I love Sinn(missus!! ) so I might not be the best one to ask. I'd prefer the U1 or 104 models myself.



The Omega is a very nice watch, very nice quality and a good balance of contemporary and vintage design and you could get one secondhand and save a few quid. The Rolex is a very nice watch too, but vastly overpriced for what you get. You're buying the name which is cool if that's what you want.

Though on the service front the Rolex should last way beyond five years without one. Though they've tarted up the finish and way increased quality control over the last decade or so they retained their larger tolerances so like Seiko they're built like tanks and can take abuse. I would buy a thirty , even forty year old Rolex or Seiko(non chronograph for both) that never had a service without a second thought. No way would I if it were a Patek, or AP, or Omega Coaxial or JLC etc.

unkel

Cyclingtourist wrote: »

I'm supposed to be on the lookout for a 'luxury' watch and really like the Rolex Oyster Perpetual as well as the Omega Aqua Terra. The first is about €6K (grey market don't even think about trying in Weirs) and the second €4K. I can afford either or even both but really can't justify spending that kind of money on something that will probably need an expensive service in the next 5 years.

I think the Rolex service interval is 10 years these days. Not quite sure on the Omega but I think their co-axial movements only need servicing every 10 years too.

A new €4k Omega will cost you more than a €6k Rolex though

Wibbs

unkel wrote: »

I think the Rolex service interval is 10 years these days.

IIRC that's a new thing they're saying? I'm surprised they didn't promote that before as they're long famous for going for years without attention, being daily worn even abused and still keep ticking and pretty accurately too. It was even more puzzling not so long ago when the quality and quality control of their movements was at times appallingly bad, yet they could still get COSC ratings and last donkey's years. Their movement designs were never high end, but they were bloody good and robust and do exactly what they say on the tin designs. That's a very hard trick to pull off. Seiko are about the only other marque who have done similar.

Cyclingtourist

For me the Siin 556 i RS ticks a lot of boxes and a few things I'm not so keen on.

First value, at €1,240 brand new delivered on a pretty good bracelet seems reasonable. I like the dial with the red second's hand, bit like my Stowa but more readable. I like the movement Sellita SW200-1 in that it's 4hz and doesn't go for the extended power reserve. I could have done without the display back and the date function but one has to accept small compromises.

Wibbs' 104 is nice but too fussy a dial and don't really need a rotating bezel with the extra size.

Thanks to everyone who responded.

Is it a 'luxury' watch? It would be almost twice what I've ever paid in the past for a watch although the Stowa I have retails around the same. I think 'luxury' in the end comes down to price, it's a perception.

Fitz II

The coaxial is a innovation that doesn't seem to be paying off for Omega just yet although Roger Smith makes coaxial movement he claims go 15 years between service, but Omega has had issues with it especially on the early ones. What seems to make more of a difference is the lubricant, and Rolex introduced a new one back in 2019 with this 10 year interval. Co-axial needs less lubrication as there is less friction, but there are other parts to the watch touching other than just the palate stones.

It goes to show that all the polishing in the world doesn't make a movement more robust. Patek have 3-5 year intervals and they polish and bevel the underside of the screws for heaven's sake. I think that Rolex concentrate on the shock resistance and rigidness of the bridges, which is ugly but solid. Sure the new 41mm subs have an issue with noisy rotors, where they put a ring of bearings in to take the stress off the rotor pin...makes more noise but fixes a common fault where rotors broke free. Thats their priority and refinement be damned.

Makes sense really, when you C&C a part you can get tolerances down to under 10 microns, you go polishing that and you loosen off all the tolerances. Mill them big to compensate for polishing and there is a certain randomness to the final product. Seiko just take the view that these are workhorse movements and that they should run at reasonable accuracy for 15 years without service and then go in the bin.

Its like women.....the pretty ones are more high maintenance, the ugly ones are a bit rough but give years of acceptable function

893bet

I don’t see Sinn as “luxury” personally.

More “tool” than “luxury” but of which are subjective perceptions.

Interesting question thought where does “luxury” start?

Cyclingtourist

893bet wrote: »

Interesting question thought where does “luxury” start?

Where you start to feel the pinch in your pocket.

893bet

Cyclingtourist wrote: »

I'm supposed to be on the lookout for a 'luxury' watch and really like the Rolex Oyster Perpetual as well as the Omega Aqua Terra. The first is about €6K (grey market don't even think about trying in Weirs) and the second €4K. I can afford either or even both but really can't justify spending that kind of money on something that will probably need an expensive service in the next 5 years.

I own a 04 Ford Fiesta that does the job and costs me money even though I drive it once or twice a week on average and would happily give up car ownership but my wife won't allow me.

So here's the question; Is the Sinn 556 i RS, which I also like, at about €1.4K a 'luxury' watch?

A bb58 should be achievable at 3k second hand. And you won’t lose a penny on it every (as long as you ignore the opportunity cost).

Cyclingtourist

893bet wrote: »

A bb58 should be achievable at 3k second hand. And you won’t lose a penny on it every (as long as you ignore the opportunity cost).

Yeah it's really between that and the Sinn at the moment.

CalamariFritti

FWIW I just bought an Aqua Terra a couple of months ago and had it serviced with Omega straight after. So now I have 2 years warranty and the service interval and it was just over 3k all in. Smashing watch and close to new now.

Having said that I got a very good deal of a boardsie. I dont think it can be done for less.

redlead

The Sinn is a cool watch but there's no way you'd be looking at your wrist thinking this is my pride and joy versus your other watches like you would with the Aquaterra or Op. In that sense, it isn't luxury in my opinion. The thing is though, you aren't really a luxury watch kind of guy. Are you sure you actually want to fork out all that cash? You have a massive collection of cheaper watches which seems to give you a lot of joy.

unkel

Aqua Terra is about the classiest looking Omega in my book