My thoughts on the CSI deer course.

Grizzly 45

NOTE.I am not advocating doing this course or any other on offer,or making it compulsory or otherwise needing it to hunt deer in Ireland. Although,i do believe that with the amended wildlife act 2018 there is a possibility of the minister enacting this now as a pre-requirement in the legislation.I did it for my own experiance and shts&giggles,as I had[unusually] a spare 100 euros to spend too on myself.Nor did I get paid and have no connection with CSI apart from being a member by default thru my membership of Midlands

Lecture [2 hours] It has cut out a lot of unnecessary and badly explained stuff[aka padding] out of the HCAP manual. In fact there is no manual for the course.They cover the pertinent bits within 2 hours, although,that does leave little time to discuss some finer points that might crop up.Or some questionable points. Like they were assured and put it down as gospel,that under the Wildlife act it is illegal to hunt baited deer. Maybe I have missed something, but I cant find anything in the entire wildlife acts that mention hunting over bait relating to deer or game birds? If there is, would someone please point it out where it is and put it up here?

Also,the definition of "restricted firearms" is abit over the place too. "Automatic firearms" as they had in the lecture are prohibited firearms in IRL and the EU[CAT A] and not Restricted.
If they were trying to say semi-autos were restricted,fine.But it was a point the "gun dealer" who was doing this lecture should be well aware of .

Also,an intresting legal and safety point came up.How do you legally and humanely dispatch a wounded or injured deer on a public road?To which there is no real answer and actually a quandry. Shooting it with a rifle on a public road is potentially dangerous due to impact and richocet.Plus you are discharging a firearm on a public road.Using a handgun[my suggestion] same problem,and violating your liscense terms as a target pistol. "Necking" it with a knife[IE instant death,by severing the spinal cord and brain stem by stabbing the blade between skull and first vertebrae].Good luck with that,it's extremely dangerous and a good way of getting an antler tine thru your hand or a kick from a cloven hoof.Then you have the problem of public gawkers,and everyone is an instagram journalist and Youtube director these days,and weare all less than 10 secs from a phone camera and the internet...
An intresting one

The multiple choice questionnaire,well unless you have never seen a deer before or handled a gun or are blessed with an IQ equivilent to your shoe size,and you were asleep thru the whole thing... It's no biggie.Think everyone passed it with high marks.

Walkabout.
Needs abit of work on this.One lad acts as the stalker with an unloaded rifle of a group of 6,and you go for a stroll about the midland range backstops where some deer cut outs are set up,and you decide whether it is safe to shoot or not.again common sense and basic firearms saftey will get you thru this.The targets are brown shiloute targets of deer in various positions,so they are blending in nicely to the area,and can take some spotting.

Shooting.
Bring spare ammo,you can end up missing.As I did on the zero stage,as I had one flyer at 100 meters[Cold bore,from a bipod,which I rarely use] and one at standing 40.In fairness,I WAS the only person shooting freehand with a sling,as I never use sticks[,just another thing to carry] in a 25 kph wind coming Right to Left across the Creedmore.Anyone who has shot at the Creedmore will know how the wind can be there:P:o] Anyhoo,no biggie on the reshoot of two rounds at 40 and 3at 100 zeroing. It is the shooter,not the rifle in my case:pac:. So 10 extra rounds should see you alright.

Conclusion.
It's fine for what we need in knowledge and qualification in Ireland.
There is no padding,or unnecessary doing a written test here and then seeing if you passed before you can do the shooting at a later date.
If you were a total newbie to stalking,it gives you a compartively speaking a "See Spot Run" knowledge of litature,and you can now head off and tackle "Ulysses":eek:Which you 'll only get by reading alot of litature.Same as stalking,you have some building blocks to start getting experiance.

I'd rate it as about if not slightly below the US NRA hunter saftey course in content and practical,[and an absolute doddle compared to the German hunter 30 day cramming ,or 3-year leisurely course eek:.] If you are an old hand at stalking,this is just proably going to be like doing the "safe pass" for construction workers.Pay money to get a bit of paper to make you legal,while going thru the motions.There are other modules being offered,night shooting and butchering, and thats fine,if you want to do them ,or not.

Worth doing?Meh..Hard to say. Depends on your skill level and what do you want it for? Coilte lease,fine,ticks the boxes,raw amateur taking up deer hunting?Worth doing so you have some gumption whatit's about. Old hand...Unless you need it for some reason,and then be prepared to have a rather leisurely day with 2 hours of boredom,as well as flaking a dozen shots downrange,and a walk abot holding someone's rifle
.
Is it something in all our futures if we want to keep deer hunting?Without a doubt!So pick the easiest,cheapest option,wheneverit becomes compulsory,whenever that might be.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Maybe I have missed something, but I cant find anything in the entire wildlife acts that mention hunting over bait relating to deer or game birds? If there is, would someone please point it out where it is and put it up here?

Section 34 of the Wildlife act deals with baiting. Not 100% clear cut, but lays the ground work for what you can and cannot do. Mostly it's a no no.

Also,the definition of "restricted firearms" is abit over the place too. "Automatic firearms" as they had in the lecture are prohibited firearms in IRL and the EU[CAT A] and not Restricted.
If they were trying to say semi-autos were restricted,fine.But it was a point the "gun dealer" who was doing this lecture should be well aware of .

The IFA done the same thing a few years back calling on the banning of automatic weapons. When they were informed no such firearm is licensed they held their, wrong, interpretation.

Also, and it was pointed out to me some time back, automatic firearms are not actually prohibited, just never licensed. They are covered under the firearms act and a license for one can be sought but you'd want the Minister for Justice to be your Father as a good reason.

Also,an intresting legal and safety point came up.How do you legally and humanely dispatch a wounded or injured deer on a public road?

Section 22 & 23 of the Wildlife act deals with this. It's doesn't go into detail on how, but rather you can and are legally covered.

As you said above about the walk around part of the course and using basic common sense and best safe practices, i'd assume the same applies here. Do what is safe, use whatever item is safe, and remember your location/whereabouts. If in doubt call someone, NPWS presumably, and ask for help or notify them and let them deal with it.

Is it something in all our futures if we want to keep deer hunting?

For some it will be compulsory and others optional.

Without a doubt!

As above.

So pick the easiest,cheapest option,wheneverit becomes compulsory,whenever that might be.

Only compulsory for new comers to the sport. Those with existing deer licenses, hcap, DSC, CS and any other course will be exempt from having to complete any mandatory courses as per the Ministers statement:

In that regard the Minister is satisfied that the most appropriate course of action is to consider the introduction of an appropriate training and certification process for first time applicants for deer hunting licences to commence from a date which will be determined in due course but certainly no later than 2020.

Grizzly 45

[

URL="http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1976/act/39/enacted/en/print.html"]Section 34 of the Wildlife act [/URL]deals with baiting. Not 100% clear cut, but lays the ground work for what you can and cannot do. Mostly it's a no no.

I thought so too,but it specifies poisionious /or stupefying bait.Not a apple tree that you planted on your let,or pruned back into shape in an abandonded garden alotment on your let ,if you have such. Or throwing out a bushel of rotten apples in the let during off season every other week. Very vauge indeed.

Also, and it was pointed out to me some time back, automatic firearms are not actually prohibited, just never licensed. They are covered under the firearms act and a license for one can be sought but you'd want the Minister for Justice to be your Father as a good reason.

I'd say it would be pretty difficult now to do with the EU directive of 2017,yet we havent fully enacted that directive either.But it is true enough,the 1925 act seems to be describing at best a tear gas dispenser,at worst a flame thrower.But it doesnt actually state full auto/select fire being prohibited...Ok ,who's going to be first to ask their Cheif for a FA UZI??:).But still more than likely an academic point of discussion?

As you said above about the walk around part of the course and using basic common sense and best safe practices, i'd assume the same applies here. Do what is safe, use whatever item is safe, and remember your location/whereabouts. If in doubt call someone, NPWS presumably, and ask for help or notify them and let them deal with it.

Does that then exempt you from the firearms act crime of discharging a firearm on or near a public road?Even with Garda/NPWS say so?"Nah your honour,I didnt tell him to go and shoot that poor injured deer there on the road" could possibly the statement in a later court session form those in power. Calling NPWS,you know yourself,you could be waiting awhile.So much that the deer expires from its injuries,and solves the problem itself. It's again another situation that has so many variables that you could make a bad judgment call when you think you are doing right.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I thought so too,but it specifies poisionious /or stupefying bait.Not a apple tree that you planted on your let,or pruned back into shape in an abandonded garden alotment on your let ,if you have such. Or throwing out a bushel of rotten apples in the let during off season every other week. Very vauge indeed.

Hence the reason i say it's not 100% clear cut. Doesn't cover every type of baiting

Look at section 42(c) of the 2000 Amendment act which states "bait" on it's own, as well as the above description. So its seems this amendment now includes any and all baiting.

But still more than likely an academic point of discussion?

Essentially, yes.

Does that then exempt you from the firearms act crime of discharging a firearm on or near a public road?

With absolutely no basis other than an opinion, i'd say so, yes. The act permits the humane dispatch of an injured wild animal via any means so this means the normal (22 centrefire, 55gr, 1,700ft/lb, only in season, etc) laws are suspended.

If it was safe to drag into a field/off the road then do so, but failing that i find it hard to believe, even if it got to court level, that any judge would throw the book at you for a violation of a 150 yr old law and allow prosecution of it to supersede your "duties" under the Wildlife Act. It would deter any future acts by people that find similarly injured animals.

Even with Garda/NPWS say so?"Nah your honour,I didnt tell him to go and shoot that poor injured deer there on the road" could possibly the statement in a later court session form those in power.

You're assuming/asserting that in all situations NPWS or AGS will be present. If they are, then your responsibilities have ended and they can proceed as they see fit. If they're not there, then it's your call how to best and safely perform the act, and simply inform them straight after the act.

Take pictures of the injured animal or ring before you act to CYA.

Calling NPWS,you know yourself,you could be waiting awhile.So much that the deer expires from its injuries,and solves the problem itself. It's again another situation that has so many variables that you could make a bad judgment call when you think you are doing right.

You said it yourself. We could go on and on inspecting, analyzing, and picking apart every conceivable aspect of "whatifery" but the best advice and really only advice is stay within the law and use common sense.

If in doubt or you're "nervous" to act, report it and drive away. You're under no obligation to act (but you really should).