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Sunday opening hours - Pubs, Hotels

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  • 21-04-2019 6:01pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 28,497 ✭✭✭✭


    Are there any exemptions to the Sunday opening 1230 hours?

    I was out today and the bar\cafe in hotel (also does food, coffees, scones) was serving pints at 1145. The bar was open to public so it wasnt just for residents.

    Mod- please move if wrong forum.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Hotels can serve guests 24/7, but the law is loosely applied. No cop is gonna ask people at 11.45 on a Sunday morning if they're guests.

    Same principle with pubs refusing to serve after 11.30pm. Most will push it a bit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,739 ✭✭✭✭minidazzler


    Likely a case of management just playing dumb to the law. Most bars in cork that serve food open at 12 on a sunday.... I've never myself been told I couldn't get a drink with brunch.... and I've never refused someone, who didn't look like they were on a bad rollover, a drink because of that half hour.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,369 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    It used to be the case that if there was no 12 o'clock mass in the parish, the local pubs could apply for permission to open at 12, otherwise Sunday opening was 12:30.

    That rule gave rise to an interesting situation in Lanesborough in Co. Longford, the town at the northern tip of Lough Ree. Most of the town is on the Leinster side of the bridge and the church in the town did not have a mass at 12 on Sundays so the pubs were allowed to open at 12. Just across the bridge on the Connaught side, however, the pubs could not open until 12:30 and the reason was that they were in a different parish and even though their church was a couple of miles out the road, that church did have a mass at 12 so those pubs couldn't open until 12:30, by which time all of the drinking churchgoers were well settled in to the pubs on the Leinster side of the river which were open since 12.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,818 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    coylemj wrote: »
    It used to be the case that if there was no 12 o'clock mass in the parish, the local pubs could apply for permission to open at 12, otherwise Sunday opening was 12:30.
    Dubious. Under what law? AFAIK, the current 12.30 Sunday opening, along with St Patrick's Day opening and the holy hour, were introduced in the 1960 Act.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,369 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    BeerNut wrote: »
    Dubious. Under what law? AFAIK, the current 12.30 Sunday opening, along with St Patrick's Day opening and the holy hour, were introduced in the 1960 Act.

    Don't know which law but I remember a court case way back (maybe the 1970s) when a publican on the Connaught side of the river applied to the local District Court to be allowed open at 12. His solicitor pleaded on the basis that the pubs just across the river opened at 12, were getting all the business and his client was missing out on the Sunday morning trade.

    The judge said his hands were tied. The man's pub was in a parish where there was a 12 mass on Sunday so the application was denied.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭noby


    I've heard, anecdotally of a law where you opened a half hour after the start of last mass, but couldn't quote the actual law, so not sure how much truth is in it.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,818 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    coylemj wrote: »
    Don't know which law but I remember a court case way back (maybe the 1970s) when a publican on the Connaught side of the river applied to the local District Court to be allowed open at 12. His solicitor pleaded on the basis that the pubs just across the river opened at 12, were getting all the business and his client was missing out on the Sunday morning trade.

    The judge said his hands were tied. The man's pub was in a parish where there was a 12 mass on Sunday so the application was denied.
    Sounds like the rule connecting pub opening to Mass times has been invented to embellish to a story about a publican complaining in court that pubs in a neighbouring district are illegally opening at 12 on a Sunday so he should be allowed to as well.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,818 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    noby wrote: »
    I've heard, anecdotally of a law where you opened a half hour after the start of last mass, but couldn't quote the actual law, so not sure how much truth is in it.
    Barroom lawyers are worth every penny of their fees :D Local court or Garda practice, maybe, but not actual law.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 68,059 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Even the possibility of some surreal use of a General Exemption Order couldn't have worked on a Sunday.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,369 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    BeerNut wrote: »
    Sounds like the rule connecting pub opening to Mass times has been invented to embellish to a story about a publican complaining in court that pubs in a neighbouring district are illegally opening at 12 on a Sunday so he should be allowed to as well.

    Mod and all you might be but that is a highly insulting and false accusation.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,369 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    BeerNut wrote: »
    Sounds like the rule connecting pub opening to Mass times has been invented to embellish to a story about a publican complaining in court that pubs in a neighbouring district are illegally opening at 12 on a Sunday so he should be allowed to as well.

    Wrong
    BeerNut wrote: »
    Barroom lawyers are worth every penny of their fees :D Local court or Garda practice, maybe, but not actual law.

    Wrong again.

    If a majority of the local publicans supported it and the extended period of opening (from 12 noon to 12:30 p.m.) did not overlap the local 'divine service', a District Justice could grant a permanent exemption from the provisions relating to prohibited hours from 12 noon to 12:30 p.m.

    Intoxicating Liquor Act 1962........

    16.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, where, on application to a Justice of the District Court by the holder of a licence (not being a six-day licence) in respect of premises situate in any locality not in a county or other borough, it is shown to the satisfaction of the Court that the application has the approval of a majority of the holders of such licences in respect of premises so situate, the Court may, if it is satisfied that, owing to circumstances in the locality, it is desirable to do so, make an order exempting the holders of all such licences in respect of premises so situate from the provisions of the Licensing Acts relating to prohibited hours in respect of those premises for the period between the hours of twelve o'clock and half-past twelve o'clock in the afternoon on Sundays and Saint Patrick's Day.

    (2) The District Court shall not make an order under this section in respect of a period during which or part of which a considerable number of people in the locality to which the order would relate would be likely to be attending Divine Service.


    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1962/en/act/pub/0021/print.html#sec16


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,818 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    Cheers. That's all I was looking for.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,497 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    An arbitrary exception to an equally arbitrary law...

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 68,059 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The late 50s to mid 60s had multiple tweaks and many more proposed in the Dail to the opening hours mainly pushing tourism as the angle to extend and road deaths to limit.

    Entire system was unfit for purpose then as now


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,369 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    L1011 wrote: »
    The late 50s to mid 60s had multiple tweaks and many more proposed in the Dail to the opening hours mainly pushing tourism as the angle to extend and road deaths to limit.

    +1 where a town didn't have an established annual festival (think Ballinasloe & Killorglin), one was invented purely so that the publicans could apply for a general exemption for the whole town for a week of late night drinking in the summer. Which attracted every alcoholic and his car from a radius of 30 miles around. With the attendant carnage on the roads after the pubs closed.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 68,059 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The biggest failure was seeing the abuse of the bona fide rule and deciding to get rid of the idea entirely (except for hotel guests) rather than acknowledge the insufficient closing hours.

    There was also the thing at that time of hotels at the absolute minimum size to get a residents bar licence being built with no intention of ever really being a hotel or excluding non residents - avoiding restrictions on new pub licences

    On that - there are a few hotels in Dublin with residents bar licences that I know will serve non residents. One is quite new. Have I missed some exception?


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,283 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    L1011 wrote: »
    On that - there are a few hotels in Dublin with residents bar licences that I know will serve non residents. One is quite new. Have I missed some exception?

    Is it not usual that a new hotel will buy and convert an ordinary 7-day licence into a hotel licence, which carries all the same conditions, including being able to serve non-residents?


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,369 ✭✭✭✭coylemj



    In it's day, the 'holy hour' only referred to the hour (2:30 - 3:30 p.m.) in the afternoon when Dublin and Cork pubs had to close on weekdays, it was abolished in 1988.

    That article you posted a link to refers to the abolition (in 1999) of Sunday afternoon closing (2-4 p.m.) which applied to the whole country. I can see several articles on the topic and they all refer to that period as the 'holy hour' but when it applied, I don't recall anyone referring to it by that name. I suspect that they used the term for want of a snappy headlne but as it was a two hour period, calling it the 'holy hour' made no sense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,369 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Is it not usual that a new hotel will buy and convert an ordinary 7-day licence into a hotel licence, which carries all the same conditions, including being able to serve non-residents?

    They're not in the same category, you can't convert one to the other. If you register as a hotel (which does not involve a 'licence') with Failte Ireland, you can serve liquor to guests but to serve customers who walk in off the street, you need a publican's licence from the Revenue Commissioners.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    coylemj wrote: »
    They're not in the same category, you can't convert one to the other. If you register as a hotel (which does not involve a 'licence') with Failte Ireland, you can serve liquor to guests but to serve customers who walk in off the street, you need a publican's licence from the Revenue Commissioners.

    I didn't say they're the same. I said is it not usual to buy an ordinary 7-day and convert. This allows the hotel to serve the public.

    Looking at the register of licences, that certainly seems to be the case.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    coylemj wrote: »
    In it's day, the 'holy hour' only referred to the hour (2:30 - 3:30 p.m.) in the afternoon when Dublin and Cork pubs had to close on weekdays, it was abolished in 1988.

    Why would it be called holy hour on weekday afternoons?

    Also, as far as I remember this closure was a union thing, and only applied to Dublin.
    coylemj wrote: »
    That article you posted a link to refers to the abolition (in 1999) of Sunday afternoon closing (2-4 p.m.) which applied to the whole country. I can see several articles on the topic and they all refer to that period as the 'holy hour' but when it applied, I don't recall anyone referring to it by that name. I suspect that they used the term for want of a snappy headlne but as it was a two hour period, calling it the 'holy hour' made no sense.

    When I was growing up in Co Leitrim, Sunday afternoon closing was universally referred to as "holy hour".


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,369 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    n97 mini wrote: »
    I didn't say they're the same. I said is it not usual to buy an ordinary 7-day and convert. This allows the hotel to serve the public.

    No it is not because (like I said) they are not in the same category so converting one to the other simply does not arise.

    You build a hotel with a minimum of 10 bedrooms (15 in Dublin city and county), you apply to register it with Failte Ireland. They send out an inspector who certifies that you meet the requirements for floor space, leisure areas etc. so you get registered. Now you can open for business and serve liquor to guests.

    You want to operate a public bar and serve walk-in customers? You need a publican's licence, a completely separate exercise where you deal with the local Garda Supt. and the Revenue Commissioners. Converting a pub licence to a hotel 'licence' (no such thing) simply does not arise - you might as well try to convert your NCT disc to a tax disc.
    n97 mini wrote: »
    Looking at the register of licences, that certainly seems to be the case.

    Can you elaborate on this? Most hotels have a publican's licence, in addition to being registered as a hotel. Otherwise they couldn't operate a public bar and do functions like weddings and dinner dances, unless they confined themselves to small events where all the attendees were staying in the hotel. Clearly with the explosion in tourism, there are now plenty of hotels in the cities which offer accommodation only and do not operate a public bar so they do not have a publican's licence.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,497 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    coylemj wrote: »
    In it's day, the 'holy hour' only referred to the hour (2:30 - 3:30 p.m.) in the afternoon when Dublin and Cork pubs had to close on weekdays, it was abolished in 1988.

    https://www.rte.ie/archives/2019/0325/1038490-calling-time-on-holy-hour/
    The Holy Hour was introduced in the 1920s by Justice Minister Kevin O’Higgins in an effort to curtail afternoon drinking by the workforce. Members of the Dublin-based Licensed Vintners Association have voted 60 per cent to 40 per cent in favour of putting an end to Holy Hour. The result of the ballot was announced at the Annual General Meeting of the Licensed Vintners Association.

    Not actually abolished until 1988 - first reading of the RTE article made me think the LVA abolished it in 1984!
    https://melhealy.wordpress.com/2016/03/25/holy-hour-bona-fides/

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 68,059 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    coylemj wrote: »
    No it is not because (like I said) they are not in the same category so converting one to the other simply does not arise.

    You build a hotel with a minimum of 10 bedrooms (15 in Dublin city and county), you apply to register it with Failte Ireland. They send out an inspector who certifies that you meet the requirements for floor space, leisure areas etc. so you get registered. Now you can open for business and serve liquor to guests.

    You want to operate a public bar and serve walk-in customers? You need a publican's licence, a completely separate exercise where you deal with the local Garda Supt. and the Revenue Commissioners. Converting a pub licence to a hotel 'licence' (no such thing) simply does not arise - you might as well try to convert your NCT disc to a tax disc.



    Can you elaborate on this? Most hotels have a publican's licence, in addition to being registered as a hotel. Otherwise they couldn't operate a public bar and do functions like weddings and dinner dances, unless they confined themselves to small events where all the attendees were staying in the hotel. Clearly with the explosion in tourism, there are now plenty of hotels in the cities which offer accommodation only and do not operate a public bar so they do not have a publican's licence.

    The 7 day ordinary publicans licence for a hotel does have the words Hotel (Public Bar) in the title, presumably as it covers both the Bord Failte requirements and the publican aspect.

    There are also places down as Hotel (Residents Bar) which I am assuming do not have a publicans licence of any description; but I know at least two that'll serve anyone and advertise that on their website!


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,369 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Why would it be called holy hour on weekday afternoons?

    Also, as far as I remember this closure was a union thing, and only applied to Dublin.

    Popular folklore claimed that it was instigated by the church (probably the Archbishop of Dublin) which encouraged the Govt. to introduce it in order to encourage men to go back to work in the afternoon. Or at least to stop drinking for an hour, possbily in order to reduce public drunkeness

    It applied to Dubln and Cork cities.
    n97 mini wrote: »
    When I was growing up in Co Leitrim, Sunday afternoon closing was universally referred to as "holy hour".

    We owned a pub in the midlands, I served behind the counter every Sunday morning (12:30-2) in the 60s and 70s and I never heard anyone refer to Sunday closing as the 'holy hour'.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    coylemj wrote: »
    No it is not because (like I said) they are not in the same category so converting one to the other simply does not arise.

    You build a hotel with a minimum of 10 bedrooms (15 in Dublin city and county), you apply to register it with Failte Ireland. They send out an inspector who certifies that you meet the requirements for floor space, leisure areas etc. so you get registered. Now you can open for business and serve liquor to guests.

    ^ Hotel residents licence.
    coylemj wrote: »
    You want to operate a public bar and serve walk-in customers? You need a publican's licence, a completely separate exercise where you deal with the local Garda Supt. and the Revenue Commissioners. Converting a pub licence to a hotel 'licence' (no such thing) simply does not arise - you might as well try to convert your NCT disc to a tax disc.
    An order under section 19 of the Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1960 allows for the holders of licences granted under section 2(2) of the Licensing (Ireland) Act, 1902, to apply to the court to allow for a public bar on the premises. An application under section 19 requires the extinguishment of an ordinary seven day publican’s licence within the State.

    However, an order under section 19 does not convert a ‘hotel licence’ in to an ordinary publican’s licence and the premises must still function as a hotel within the definition as outlined above with the requisite number of rooms.

    ^ Converted 7-day licence. Even though you bought a pub licence, you must run the business as a hotel.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 68,059 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I can also identify a (very) limited number of places with a hotel licence that don't rent out any rooms anymore, actually. One is block-rented to the local council but the bar is still open so that can probably be fudged as a hotel; another just doesn't operate the rooms at all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,369 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    n97 mini wrote: »
    ^ Hotel residents licence.

    ^ Converted 7-day licence. Even though you bought a pub licence, you must run the business as a hotel.

    Can you supply a link to the source of that text in your third (last) quote box?

    S.19 of the Intoxicating Liquor Act 1960 does not deal with the 'conversion' of a 7-day publican's licence to a 'hotel licence'. It involves the owner of a hotel purchasing an existing 7-day licence and extinguishing it so that his hotel can be licensed as a public bar. You still need to maintain your registration as a hotel with Failte Ireland i.e. the pub licence does not confer you with a 'super' licence which incorporates the right to operate a hotel and a public bar.

    I accept that the transfer may be approved by the court on condition that he continues to run the place as a hotel so I can see where you're coming from with the term 'hotel licence' but in your final quote box above, I note that the the author, when commentating on the legislation piece above it, takes care to put the term in quotes, suggesting that it is not an official (legal) term. What we're talking about here is a registered hotel which is licensed to run a public bar.

    I assume that the condition that the place continues to be run as a hotel is there to stop an abuse of the system whereby someone uses a hotel as a Trojan Horse to open a new pub by the back door. Meaning that if he stops operating as a hotel, the Gardai can object to his next renewal on the basis of bad faith.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 34,283 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    coylemj wrote: »
    In it's day, the 'holy hour' only referred to the hour (2:30 - 3:30 p.m.) in the afternoon when Dublin and Cork pubs had to close on weekdays, it was abolished in 1988.

    That article you posted a link to refers to the abolition (in 1999) of Sunday afternoon closing (2-4 p.m.) which applied to the whole country. I can see several articles on the topic and they all refer to that period as the 'holy hour' but when it applied, I don't recall anyone referring to it by that name. I suspect that they used the term for want of a snappy headlne but as it was a two hour period, calling it the 'holy hour' made no sense.

    Nothing about it made any sense, but that is what I recall people referring to Sunday afternoon closing as.

    What was supposedly 'holy' about a weekday afternoon?

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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