Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121606121#Comment_121606121

He's correct that it should interchange but if it's a choice between Tara St or the red line, Tara St wins.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605379#Comment_121605379

I accept them changes but they seem more incremental than major.

By major I mean, new motorways, new train/tram lines etc.

cgcsb

Ok so there's pages and pages of literature on the decision behind location of stations. And the argument for the current proposal was a clear winner for a number of reasons including alignment, constructability and utility. Is it a perfect solution, no, but it's the best solution thar can be practically achieved.

as other posters have pointed out perhaps in the future a system of underground walkways will be developed connecting O'Connell metro to clearys and easons basement, Abbey luas and Tara Metro/Dart like they have in Canada, when the area is revitalised. In the meantime a short walk above ground will have to suffice and will still offer an infinitely better service than what exists now

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121606452#Comment_121606452

There are 3 mega projects for Dublin due to go to construction/enabling this year after years of work. The biggest period of construction of public transport infrastructure ever is to begin within 12 months

Idbatterim

voting greem is essential, I dont care for these ignorant comments about Ryan and wanting to put a few cent on fuel etc! with a proper transport system, you will be able to leave your car at home potentially or not even need a car or second car in the household... I dont have much faith in any political party here, they are nimby , short sighted jokes. But the green movement is very important

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121606614#Comment_121606614

Coincidentally I watched a video by "Not Just Bikes" on youtube about Toronto this week and he basically slated those underground passages, saying that there purpose was to basically get people off the streets, so they could have more space for fast car traffic on the streets and it leads to killing the street space and shops above while leaving for a very poor user experience underground, very hard to find your way around, terrible for wheelchair users, anti social behaviour, shops all closed outside of office hours, etc.

Certainly did not looking inviting in his videos compared to nice walk-able European city streets.

Personally I'd fix it by just moving the Abbey Street Luas stop West, behind Anrotts.

• Reduce the distance to just 300 to 350 meters
• More importantly, don't need to cross any O'Connell St or any roads, straight walk up the Western side of OCS, nice, very wide footpaths, past the GPO and Henry street, so lots of shops etc. to stop at. Could really help turn OCS into a nicer area, you could get greatly improved coffee shops, etc. between the two stops.
• Puts people closer to Henry Street, which to be honest the majorty of folks using the Abbey Street stop are coming and going from.

Then I'd also move the Southern Green Luas line to OCS too, where it should have always been.

• Keeps the southern Green Luas stop within a short distance of the newly moved Abbey Street stop.
• Also you would have a green line south bound station at upper OCS, within a few meters of the Metrolink stop. Rather then 250 meters away as it would be now if it remains at Marlborough St.
• Lets be honest, most people using the Marlborough St stops are going to Henry Street, you now have brought them closer to their destination.

You would now have turned OCS into a great interchange between Red Line, Green Line and Metrolink (and of course buses too).

And it all could be done without being part of the Metrolink project or really delaying or impacting it and probably much cheaper then building a questionable underground connection.

As an aside, I'd keep the Luas lines on Marlborough St and actually also add North bound ones, so that the Luas could use that street as a diversion when parades, etc. are on OCS. Of course also leave buses use that street.

Basically start creating a real network effect.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121606623#Comment_121606623

What are the three?

Bus connects

metrolink

Dart +

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121606623#Comment_121606623

Another 12 months?

And I'll believe it when I see it.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605379#Comment_121605379

Don't forget there was also 2 years of covid restrictions which resulted in both real delays and also a handy excuse for some people to drag their feet on getting reports or work done.

Brightlights66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605357#Comment_121605357

Just as an example, anybody who travels on the S-bahn in Hamburg, heading north out of the main station on one of the lines, enters the next station (Jungfernstieg) which is south-west of the main station.

That's an S-Bahn, not a nippy little metro. Metros are often capable of making turns such as you might get at the top or bottom of Dawson Street.

On the basis of several instances of significant curvature on metro systems worldwide, it seems unlikely that it would be impossible to have a station at a decent location on O'Connell Street and a station at Tara Street.

More convincing information is needed.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121608179#Comment_121608179

Its not going to happen, accept it and move on. The plan and alignment is more or less set in stone. Its not a house renovation where you slightly move the location of a window and hope to get away with it.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121607495#Comment_121607495

Yup each one is more than 2 bn euros

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121604535#Comment_121604535

Dire enough that Official Ireland still feels the need to make excuses and long finger much needed infrastructure fifteen years on from ground zero in 2008

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605765#Comment_121605765

Give them a biscuit.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121608179#Comment_121608179

More convincing information is contained within the Metrolink docs that you still haven't read. In order to save on construction cost, Metrolink is going to use one large tunnel instead of two smaller tunnels. Because it needs a large tunnel diameter, one of the widest in the world, it uses a very large Tunnel Boring Machine. Because the TBM is so large, it has a very large turning circle, which ultimately leads to the choice between Tara St and O'Connell St interchange.

Hamburg S Bahn tunnels were built in a very different time, with very different methods. Using those methods today would indeed be possible, but would be costly. Metrolink was designed from the start to control costs. You can disagree with those decisions, and that's fair enough, there's elements of this plan that I don't like either, including the O'Connell Street stop location, but I do recognise that any project like this is a series of compromises to enable the entire project to be a success.

I would encourage you to read the docs provided on the Metrolink and the Metrolink Railway Order websites, they're actually interesting in places (and deathly boring in others).

ArcadiaJunction

Dublin Airport just announced on Facebook some fuzzy images of the new transportation center at Dublin Airport claiming it will be Metro-friendly or some other BS. 30 or so bus bays it looks the business for bus passengers anyway if they ever build it. Probably be the largest and most busy bus terminal in the country when up and running.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121610890#Comment_121610890

Between the rows outside the carparks and area 16, it already is. Take a look on Bustimes or similar at how many vehicles are moving around, and remember it's only tracking some of the operators

DB, GAI, BE, aircoach, DX and citylink are tracking, JJK and Airport Hopper etc dont

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611064#Comment_121611064

Yes you are correct and if that Metro is built Dublin Airport will probably be the most busy public transport hub in the country. It will feed regional services into the Metro. A better location for this than Busaras due to motorways nearby.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611246#Comment_121611246

Glasnevin will may well give it a run for its money

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611942#Comment_121611942

Would hazard a guess that theres a chance Glasnevin would become the 3rd/2nd most used train station in the country.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612639#Comment_121612639

I suspect Tara's huge all day volume and Kent being the only station in it's city might get those two ahead of it, but yes - I don't think it'll be below third once transfer passengers are counted properly.

If Tara (rail) and Tara (metro) don't get counted as one they could be 1 and 2 on their own

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612847#Comment_121612847

I think if there are Cork services from Glasnevin, maybe it could be boosted. I don't know whether they'll do that, maybe they're hoping Dart+ plugs that gap.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612926#Comment_121612926

Equivalent-ish situations abroad wouldn't have direct Cork services, there would be a station somewhat outside the city (Kylemore maybe) where long distance trains stop to let you change over.

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612926#Comment_121612926

Yeah I was wondering about that if when Glasnevin is fully functional would Cork trains be run into North Wall via PPT.

roadmaster

I see in todays Business post they are running with Trinitys objections to the metrolink route . Its maybe time when it comes to vital national infastructure that no objections can be made due to the national interest and we as a state just build.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121613014#Comment_121613014

It would allow for a single transfer to Metrolink for the Airport, rather than two transfers if done outside the city. And it would potentially allow to integrate with the Belfast service. I think North Wall would also be a popular destination for many travelling from Cork, for example business travellers heading to the IFSC etc.

If Cork was to go to 30 minute frequency. Then you could alternate between Heuston Station and North Wall, each getting an hourly service.

Just an idea.

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121614357#Comment_121614357

and the Luas at North Wall too. Would be a popular service no doubt.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121614737#Comment_121614737

The plans for Spencer Dock Dart station only has 4 platforms, which will all be needed for Dart SW and Dart W. I think it's a missed opportunity, but don't see intercity trains ever heading to Spencer Dock.

Once Metro is opened, I think it's more likely that the majority of Dart W and SW trains will terminate at Spencer Dock, with passengers switching to Metro at Glasnevin. This would free up some capacity for Cork trains from Connolly, as well as keeping Belfast/Sligo trains in Connolly.

This is really a discussion for the Dart+ thread though.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121614942#Comment_121614942

The plans for Spencer Dock are really quite incredible, this will be the largest new station built in Ireland in modern history I believe. Of course not a hope of IC services there. Just have an intermediate stop at the start of Dart west/southwest for IC services so people don't have to backtrack from town.

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121613400#Comment_121613400

They have form. Their pathetic attempted hatchet job on the Luas in 2004 comes immediately to mind.

prunudo

If the work that Trinity do is so important and the equipment so sensitive, why not build a laboratory on a green field site, far away from interference.

ArcadiaJunction

Luke O'Neil will have trouble tuning his guitar probably.

KrisW1001

I'm not an expert on RF propogation by any means, but I really can't believe that the effects of transients from a 1500 V DC line running underground are greater than from the same type of electrical system operating the DART line in the open air less than 1 km away.

I have been in experimental RF labs, and they are entirely shielded from outside signals. It's not particularly expensive to achieve, and if you want higher accuracy and immunity from interference, you also measure the ambient signal outside of your lab as well as inside so that you can see if external interference could explain results. Again, not expensive to achieve..

This is really about someone in Trinity not wanting to lose their chance to build down in future. "The Science" is a red herring.

Sierra Oscar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121617960#Comment_121617960

The cynic in me reckons it's about TCD trying to land a big bag of cash in compensation. They could get some new and refurbished labs out of this.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121618488#Comment_121618488

The cynic in me wonders if any of the Trinity objectors live near Charlemont. Conveniently suggesting the route should terminate north of the Liffey, cause of magnets....

ArcadiaJunction

The Trinity thing is one again the establishment who see themselves as an elite caste who are the types that are 'deeply concerned about Climate Change' but fly on first class junkets non stop and see public transport as being something for commoners.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121618488#Comment_121618488

I'm sure there reasons are valid but they're probably looking for some compo to relocate their equipment or to buy some mitigating equipment.

It's not a good enough reason to move or hold up the Metro though.

The Metro should've been built 20 years ago. Failing that construction should've started in 2017 or 2018 once our finances were back in order.

Sierra Oscar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121619388#Comment_121619388

I've no doubt they probably do have some valid concerns with what they're saying, but can we just skip the whole song and dance charade please TCD? Tell us how big a bag of cash you're looking for, why your labs need to be renovated to 'mitigate the risk from Metro' and so on. Lets save ourselves a couple of years of pointless back and forth on the merry go round.

cgcsb

When deciding where to site their labs, why did they select a city centre site? Surely there are multiple sources of current and future electromagnetic interference? What other development does their lab prohibit?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620002#Comment_121620002

Cause that's where they are?

I mean, I hope their objections are essentially discarded, but building your labs miles away from the departments using them is going to be extremely sub-optimal.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620030#Comment_121620030

But this type of lab is hyper sensitive to electromagnetic radiation we're told. With that in mind surely an alternative site should have been considered

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620043#Comment_121620043

I'm sure some consideration was given to it, but you rapidly diminish the usefulness of the labs as they become further from the centres of research they are supposed to serve.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620068#Comment_121620068

Someone should have told that to CERN

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620095#Comment_121620095

CERN is the centre of research.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620102#Comment_121620102

It was originally founded at the University of Copenhagen. It moved to it’s current location due to the needs of its experiments.

Nothing stopping Trinity doing the same.

bk

Just to be clear, it is completely normal for Universities to have remote and distant labs and testing sites. It is also normal for universities to move entire departments to new locations if that makes more sense.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620114#Comment_121620114

Apart from the complete disconnect that will develop between the researchers and other academic staff in the department and the undergrads and postgrads. Perhaps that is something they will have to ultimately do in the future, but it will be detrimental in many ways and there are rather obvious reasons they would avoid it if at all possible.

CERN is CERN, it is an international centre of research unto itself. It is not remotely comparable to some pieces of equipment that are used in the day-to-day research of a university.

This comes across quite similarly to people doing crayon drawings of potential Metro routes.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620132#Comment_121620132

No it doesn’t, it is absolute nonsense and outside international best practice to build sensitive labs inside cities. This is something small time universities do, not proper research oriented universities.

Imagine trying to build the large hadron collider collider under the university of Copenhagen!

It is completely normal for the large research oriented universities to have remote labs and locations. I can list of hundreds of such facilities if you like.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620228#Comment_121620228

LHCb is 200m from the runway of an international airport. I can see CERN from my office! It's not exactly out in the sticks. Also, CERN is a dreadful comparator anyway - it is an international research project with over 2000 of its own staff, not a departmental lab.

Every single city-based university is going to have sensitive labs on their main campus. MIT has a nuclear reactor on their campus in the city!

If you can not have sensitive equipment inside cities you can not have whole science departments inside cities which is plainly not true. It will clearly cost them to adapt to this and probably limit their further growth - I am completely on board with not caring about this in the grand scheme of things. I hope, and frankly am reasonably confident , that the objections will be largely ignored. However, "why didn't they just build these labs dozens of kilometres from the department they are supposed to serve" is not a reasonable counterpoint.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620297#Comment_121620297

it is an international research project with over 2000 of its own staff, not a departmental lab.

That is the point about CERN, it started out in the University of Copenhagen, but had to move to expand and grow into it's own world leading institute.

Imagine if the University of Copenhagen tried to stop Copenhagen Metro lines from being built!

Trinity isn't exactly known for their hard science, if they were serious about it they would move it to a more suitable location.

I'm sorry, but this is a load of Bollocks, they are a city center university, DART passes through part of the university, and Luas all around it. They have a history of trying to block and hinder public transport projects like past objections to Luas. I don't believe for a moment that this is a real concern for the University and not just an excuse to extort money.